Topic: Small Stereo Mic Setup

[Affinity]

Hello, everyone.

I'm doing a documentary with a very light weight set up that has to stay light weight.  I have two original Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Cameras which are quite small.  I would love to be able to record ambient and environmental sounds along with these cameras.  I got dialogue recording covered.

Is the Stereo Clippy EM272Z microphone adequate for the recording of ambient environmental sound both indoors and out?  Is there any other lav mics you would recommend instead of the Clippy?  In regards to mixers and recorders I have a MixPre-D and MixPre 6II and 744T and DR100 MKII and SD 302.  But again, I'm really trying to stay as light weight as I can.  I could also do 2 XLR lav mics if they were better than the Clippy mic.  I'm looking for good enough audio quality and not necessarily top tier so I'm trying to avoid spending $1K on two DPA lavs presently. I do have the Line Audio wide cardiods and omnis but I feel like I could do better for environmental sound and find some mics with lower self noise and greater sensitivity.

Any suggestions will be apprecaited!

My regards,

Affinity

[Niels]

The Clippy's are excellent for ambience sound recording.
The Primo capsules they are utilising are used for field recording by a huge community as they are very quiet, sensitive and inexpensive.

An alternative could be the LOM microphones - they use the same capsules but wrapped in a different form factor. They are a bit hyped and sells out as soon as they stock up, so you'll have to sign up on their mailing list to be ready.

The sound quality of Clippy's and LOM's would likely be the same.

The recorders you have would all be fine. I'd take a SD over the Tascam but I think the latter would be just fine if the size suits you better. At least you could test the mics on the recorders before deciding.
I am assuming you don't consider recording to the Blackmagic cameras - other than for purposes of later sync.

I can't comment on the Line Audio, as I don't know them.

Hello, everyone.

I'm doing a documentary with a very light weight set up that has to stay light weight.  I have two original Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Cameras which are quite small.  I would love to be able to record ambient and environmental sounds along with these cameras.  I got dialogue recording covered.

Is the Stereo Clippy EM272Z microphone adequate for the recording of ambient environmental sound both indoors and out?  Is there any other lav mics you would recommend instead of the Clippy?  In regards to mixers and recorders I have a MixPre-D and MixPre 6II and 744T and DR100 MKII and SD 302.  But again, I'm really trying to stay as light weight as I can.  I could also do 2 XLR lav mics if they were better than the Clippy mic.  I'm looking for good enough audio quality and not necessarily top tier so I'm trying to avoid spending $1K on two DPA lavs presently. I do have the Line Audio wide cardiods and omnis but I feel like I could do better for environmental sound and find some mics with lower self noise and greater sensitivity.

Any suggestions will be apprecaited!

My regards,

Affinity

[rastasean]

This is a common question on the subreddit for field recording. If you're not aware, you can access it here:
https://old.reddit.com/r/fieldrecording/

You may want to check the previous posts, but the equipment and what Niels said are pretty much what you would find on fieldrecording as well.

An alternative to clippys and loms are Naiant's X-X mics:
https://naiant.com/custom_audio_reproduction_equipment/product_spec/x-x-specification/

Or you could even check this project out:
https://www.instructables.com/The-Sound-Sleuthers/

[kuba e]

I have no practical experience with recording quiet ambient recordings. But I think you have very quality preamps, so you don't necessarily need a high-sensitivity microphone. I would try the Line Audio and compare it to the Primo capsule. The Primo capsule is very ordinary on the sound side, the same quality as the internal microphones in handheld recorders.  Also, the primo capsule probably does not have a balanced output, it will be more prone to interference. Those who record classical music here are using Line Audio. You're probably recording something quieter. But I think Line Audio is worth a try and compare.

[Niels]

The Primo capsule is very ordinary on the sound side, the same quality as the internal microphones in handheld recorders.  Also, the primo capsule probably does not have a balanced output, it will be more prone to interference.

I don’t know what you mean by “ordinary”? They are exceptional at their price point and are balanced if you want them to be: https://micbooster.com/clippy-and-pluggy-microphones/99-xlr-stereo-clippy-em272-microphone.html

[kuba e]

Line Audio is better than Primo for recording music. I don't record ambient sound, Primo may be sufficient for this purpose. I just think it would be good to try to compare when you have a pair of Line Audio and excellent recorders.

It is stated that em272 has a balanced xlr output. Probably the signal in the cable between the capsule and the xlr is unbalanced. It doesn't matter in most cases. But I remember that once I was recording with similar Church Audio microphones, I caught some interference. It was an extreme case, I don't know if it was from a mobile phone or some other aggressive device.

[Niels]

Line Audio is better than Primo for recording music.

I don't own them so I can't comment, but you are not the only one on this forum that praises them for music recordings, so I don't doubt it.

...And since OP already owns both the Line Audio cardioids and omni's there's no harm in testing them to see if self noise levels are acceptable for the intended purposes.

OP asks for ambient and environmental recording advice in a small package, not music recording, so that is what I am trying to respond to.

For the past almost 10 years, I have used a matched pair of (unbalanced) EM172 from FEL Communications (Specs almost identical to EM272: https://micbooster.com/microphone-capsules/8-primo-em172.html ).

Although I also use these for quiet concerts,  my primary use has been field recording. I don't recall a situation where ambient background or room noise wouldn't kick in before I could notice any self-noise.

I have one DPA 4060 I mainly use for its intended purposes, as a Lav mic for speech, and it is great at that - but I am not sure I would call it a quiet microphone.
Since the DPA is XLR terminated and my PRIMOs are stereo 3.5mm terminated, I have not made side by side comparisons, though.

I haven't checked if it is available, but even if one of the DPA 406X variations would match the low self noise of the PRIMOs, I wouldn't feel the need to make such an investment, nor would I want to expose such value to the situations I use them in the field.

I find these mass produced Primo capsules to be a great value-proposition for ambience & field recording.

Those of us interested in that type of recording are lucky that we have companies like FEL Communications and LOM microphones which assemble very useful quality microphones we can buy without an endless number of importer, distributer and dealer mark-ups.

FEL Communications Clippy series: https://micbooster.com/10-clippy-and-pluggy-microphones
LOM Microphones: https://store.lom.audio/collections/microphones-accessories

[kuba e]

Thank you Niels for your kind explanation. You are right, I agree with you. There are different requirements for recording music and recording environments.

I didn't write my post well. I also have Primo capsules and I like them. I also bought it from Micbooster back then. I think it was an omni EM172 (272). I soldered a 3.5 jack cable to them and use it with a Church Audio preamp or a battery box to record lectures. I didn't have the microphones right next to the speaker so that questions from the audience could be heard. Interestingly, I always had noise on the recording. But I never researched where it came from. If it was from the microphone, the preamplifier, or was it the natural noise of the environment. Later, I always automatically used noise reduction in Daw and was satisfied. But here on the forum, it was nicely explained how to assess background noise, microphone and preamplifier noise. Unfortunately, I have already forgotten all, but it would be possible to find it.

The EM172 (272) capsule was used in Sony M10 for it's internal microphones. It was not good for stereo recordings, because the spa
I also agree with you about the price. I have been using cheap, old Nakamichi cm300 mics from the 1980s for many years. Nakamichi also used Primo capsules. I even found the new omni capsule EM23 at micbooter. But these Nakamichi/Primo capsules are noisy, for acoustic music it's already on the edge.
https://micbooster.com/microphone-capsules/56-67-primo-em23-microphone-capsule.html#/36-single_2_4_matched_capsules-single

But there are certainly alternatives that lie between Primo and Dpa (price/quality). E.g. Audio Technica, Senheiser or Countryman. What is interesting is that according to the Primo EM272 specification it is quieter than the Dpa4060. This is probably not related to quality, but to the construction. The Dpa4060 has a much smaller diaphragm and therefore has higher noise.