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Author Topic: Running more than 2 mics  (Read 14329 times)

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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2023, 11:01:25 AM »
I've been reading this.
The Oade brothers started using split omnis with centered XY pairs in 1984 or 1985. I have patched out cassettes of each rig from varying 1985 shows. Good stuff
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 05:36:39 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2023, 04:14:08 PM »
I have removed my comments related to my opinions about another member's habits. Some of it has been quoted so still remains.
It's not related to the topic at hand and my opinion about another members' style of communication doesn't add anything constructive to the discourse.
So, on topic - I'm a big fan of adding a center facing directional mic to a 30cm spaced sub cardioid pair. It gives the arrangement more forward reach and let's me dial in the directional mic as needed in post if at all. I don't always include it if the mix is bright and loud enough. A hypercard works great in this arrangement. I've found that moving the center mic forward a few inches sounds better in the mix.

That's pretty much it for more than a stereo pair of mics for me if I'm in the audience. Being able to bring open mics on a stand into a concert typically limits the amount of stuff I'd be willing to bring to a show without special permission from the artist, venue and security. Flying a 4 or more mic array with a big split limits where you can physically locate your rig due to sightlines, traffic patterns and the other limitations we face as tapers at concert venues.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 06:47:07 PM by goodcooker »
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Offline vanark

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2023, 04:53:30 PM »
I have edited my post (I don't believe it was quoted) to still get my point across without making it about a specific person. Fair enough criticism and I'll try to do better. I think the points I was trying to make hold water and may encourage someone to give the hobby a try knowing there are plenty of 2 mic options out there that make a perfectly reasonable recording. I remember being a newbie and being intimidated that I was going to do something wrong or my recording wasn't going to be listenable. I have made, and continue to make, fairly listenable recordings, which is usually my goal.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2023, 05:04:53 PM »
Goodcooker and Vanark, I appreciate it very much. I also deleted the posts.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2023, 05:33:05 PM »
Goodcooker and Vanark, I appreciate it very much. I also deleted the posts.
I will modify or delete mine.
Fair enough. I did PM to goodcooker, and am thinking we all can get a bong, errr along.
As for the topic, David Griesinger-look him up.  >:D

If we are thinking of newbies starting to tape and what they can glean from taperssection posts, I can say for their benefit: two microphones are most often used for concert recordings from the audience, but are not the only way to make a recording. There are about a dozen standardized methods of two microphone configurations such as XY, NORTF, and such. Depending on access limitations one may choose to run multiple microphone arrays, however, doing so should be done only with a solid understanding of YOUR GEAR related to the concepts behind phased arrays and correlation vs decorrelation. Something rarely discussed- mixing down a multi channel mix, even when "perfectly" arrayed, is also challenging and requires specific skillsets and knowledge of post processing, etc.

That said, I am an old M-fer having taped over 40 years now, so I may be come off a bit curmudgeonly!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 06:16:27 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2023, 05:44:39 PM »
FTR, my comments were not specifically about "audience taping" (which is not my thing) but concert recording in general. While it wasn't exactly stated this way, I wonder if OP's position is partly that there's a certain amount of diminishing returns when you are recording an amplified show from a less than perfect location.

In the classical world, there are some arrays out there that get really crazy, but they all solve certain problems for their creators and only work if the placement is optimal, the room acoustics are cooperative, etc.
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Online noahbickart

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2023, 06:02:54 AM »
It's so wonderful that in this little corner of the internet, people treat each other with respect and are willing to take back words which are perceived as hurtful.

It's so rare and thus worth celebrating.
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Offline Top Hat

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2023, 02:35:21 PM »

So, on topic - I'm a big fan of adding a center facing directional mic to a 30cm spaced sub cardioid pair. It gives the arrangement more forward reach and let's me dial in the directional mic as needed in post if at all. I don't always include it if the mix is bright and loud enough. A hypercard works great in this arrangement. I've found that moving the center mic forward a few inches sounds better in the mix.


Why not just remoce 1/3 of that rig and run M/S.. This is essentially the same without the timing issues?

Offline Top Hat

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2023, 02:39:58 PM »
FTR, my comments were not specifically about "audience taping" (which is not my thing) but concert recording in general. While it wasn't exactly stated this way, I wonder if OP's position is partly that there's a certain amount of diminishing returns when you are recording an amplified show from a less than perfect location.

In the classical world, there are some arrays out there that get really crazy, but they all solve certain problems for their creators and only work if the placement is optimal, the room acoustics are cooperative, etc.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that properly spaced and timed mics have thier benefits in instrument recording. This takes hours if not days to properly set up. PA recordings "Tapers" are usually up and running in 30 m or less. In other words it is a bit different because of time and logistical constaints.

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2023, 03:56:35 PM »
FTR, my comments were not specifically about "audience taping" (which is not my thing) but concert recording in general. While it wasn't exactly stated this way, I wonder if OP's position is partly that there's a certain amount of diminishing returns when you are recording an amplified show from a less than perfect location.

In the classical world, there are some arrays out there that get really crazy, but they all solve certain problems for their creators and only work if the placement is optimal, the room acoustics are cooperative, etc.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that properly spaced and timed mics have thier benefits in instrument recording. This takes hours if not days to properly set up. PA recordings "Tapers" are usually up and running in 30 m or less. In other words it is a bit different because of time and logistical constaints.
I am unsure where you get the idea that setting up for recording classical or orchestral HAS TO take more time, hours or days to set up as compared to PA recordings. In my experience doing that stuff, for me it was in the 1980's mostly, with people who were widely considered as the best at what they do, it never took days to do anything. In fact, we had one day/night to do 99% of all recording setups. Rock, punk, folk, Irish, orchestral, we did them all in the salt city in one day/night. OTH, some recordists at certain venues, do get very crazy with their arrays and typically get paid for the awesome outcome.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2023, 04:00:33 PM »

So, on topic - I'm a big fan of adding a center facing directional mic to a 30cm spaced sub cardioid pair. It gives the arrangement more forward reach and let's me dial in the directional mic as needed in post if at all. I don't always include it if the mix is bright and loud enough. A hypercard works great in this arrangement. I've found that moving the center mic forward a few inches sounds better in the mix.


Why not just remoce 1/3 of that rig and run M/S.. This is essentially the same without the timing issues?

Mid/side has a place in my toolkit but good sounding small diaphragm figure 8 mics are hard to come by on my kind of budget. Using a LD is doable and I've done it in the past but I prefer the sound of near coincident mic pairs instead of the mono sound of M/S. Up close like on the stage is fine for M/S but farther back where I'm usually recording it doesn't work out for me as well.

This one turned out okay but we weren't very far back and I still got more chatter than I would have liked - https://archive.org/details/mhb2008-07-23.midside.flac16

What timing issues do you mean?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 04:16:38 PM by goodcooker »
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Offline yltfan

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2023, 08:06:12 PM »
Just skimmed all of this, and maybe I missed it, but I often run two pairs of mics when I'm able to place a second pair onstage--sometimes capturing a totally different mix.
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Offline vantheman

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2023, 09:14:51 PM »
Also want to chime in and say, while I still consider myself a relative noob at this (going on 4 years now but the opportunities are not many), that I value the time and consideration that Gutbucket puts into his posts. His posts are loaded with context and background that would otherwise take me years to build up based on my own experience. I find myself revisiting some of the posts over and over. They are dense, his posts have taught me how to think about this hobby and practice. It’s something that’s very difficult to impart on others. So while I respect that many here don’t need all the detail, others of us will take all we can get :)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2023, 04:20:09 PM »
As someone who has also posted many long messages that aren't the type of thing everyone here is necessarily looking for, I feel left out of the criticism. I feel that I deserve to be ridiculed at least equally to anyone else, OK? Thank you.

That said: There's certain technical information about microphones and sound that's not too complex, that isn't just a matter of opinion, and that could help people avoid bad decisions. Many microphones are designed for use in specific types of applications--and among different applications, sometimes the design criteria conflict. What makes microphone "x" good for its intended use may make it a lot less good for other uses.

As one example: Many people know from their own experience that ordinary, directional microphones with full low-frequency response for music applications will sound "boomy" if used for close pickup of speech (e.g. in a public address system). But the opposite situation is true, too: Directional microphones designed for close placement will generally sound bass-deficient when used for music pickup at greater distances. Even high-quality microphones from first-rate manufacturers tend to sound thin if they were designed to have neutral/normal response with close placement, but instead you use them for more distant pickup. It has nothing to do with how "good" the microphone is, and everything to do with how it was designed to be used.

Or another example: Microphones that have big peaks and valleys in their off-axis response may have a lot of "character" close up (i.e. when used for solo vocals in a relatively dry studio or voice-over setting) but give unpredictable, sometimes rather bad-sounding, results when used at a distance from the sound source(s) in reverberant spaces. Much / most of the sound energy reaches them arrives at random-ish angles, where their on-axis frequency response--the smooth-looking graph that gets printed--doesn't apply. Unfortunately you have to know how to read a composite polar diagram to see this problem, and the manufacturer has to publish such diagrams (at various frequencies, not just at 1 kHz), and they have to be honest.

Having a prestigious brand name, and a visual design that looks good in a photo with a well-known singer using the mike close-up, won't alter these facts. But from a lot of what I see on this board, it can apparently be hard for certain individuals to accept that not all delicious-looking treats are meant for you and me. A microphone can only pick up some part of the sound field around itself; microphones can't/don't reach out and sample other parts of a space, and they don't respond to our intentions and wishes, but to what their construction does with the sound field around them.

Beyond that, we can talk about stereophonic perception, but not to the point where there are deductively valid statements about What Should Be Done in most situations--only personal advice which may miss the mark because maybe you're looking for an entirely different sensation from what I'm looking for. It's not that "everything is a matter of taste and opinion" (although a lot is); it's also that recording situations differ so much. Someone earlier in this thread made the point that you need more than one recording approach if you're going to deal optimally with the range of situations that you'll encounter, and I really agree with that. Sure, when I've just discovered or rediscovered some approach, I get enthusiastic about it--but the old saying about "to the person who has only a hammer, the whole world can start to look like a nail" still applies.

Finally, just to say something about the actual topic, I use two microphones whenever I think I can get away with it. I usually find that musicians like the results better that way, and being a musician myself, I agree with them--but I'm not entirely objective about my motives; laziness probably deserves some credit along with idealism.

To me there needs to be a very strong reason to mix anything in with the two main mikes. If I'm just not hearing something clearly enough, that's the main justification. And then those mikes need to be close enough to the "missing" sound source that they specifically pick up what they're aimed at, and don't mess up the overall stereo recording. For spot miking I nearly always use microphones specifically designed for close pickup, i.e. directional microphones with reduced low-frequency response. And I never, ever mix live; I record each mike on its own track, then mix at home later, even though that takes a lot of time, because a lot of what you have to listen for is the type of thing you can't hear over headphones, and also because no initial settings are ever perfect, but any corrections that you need to make will be audible as changes in the mix. -- If a person wants to make multiple, parallel/alternative stereo recordings (i.e. not mixing any signals), for sure that's a good reason to use multiple microphones or pairs of microphones, of course, but I don't think that anyone here is questioning that.

--best regards
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 12:45:21 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline dyneq

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2023, 05:35:00 PM »
As someone who has also posted many long messages that aren't the type of thing everyone here is necessarily looking for, I feel left out of the criticism. I feel that I deserve to be ridiculed at least equally to anyone else, OK? Thank you.
It's about time you showed up with your pedantic drivel! (how's that?) ;^)

As one example: Many people know from their own experience that ordinary, directional microphones with full low-frequency response for music applications will sound "boomy" if used for close pickup of speech (e.g. in a public address system). But the opposite situation is true, too: Directional microphones designed for close placement to a voice will generally sound bass-deficient when used for music pickup at greater distances--and that unfortunately isn't obvious to everyone, so it's worth emphasizing. Even high-quality microphones from first-rate manufacturers tend to sound thin if they were designed to have neutral/normal response in close-up placement, but you use them for more distant pickup instead. It has nothing to do with how "good" the microphone is, and everything to do with how it was designed to be used.
What are some examples of past and present microphones that have a fuller low-frequency response at greater distances? Are there aspects of their design and construction that they have in common to achieve it?

 

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