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Author Topic: Running more than 2 mics  (Read 14367 times)

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Offline Organfreak

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2023, 08:28:50 AM »
[snip]
-Is that 20 cm forward position not introducing other phase problems? The sound will hit the middle pair just before hitting the spaced mics.
-Do you have suggestions for the angle between the XY mics? As my Rode NT55 card capsules can sound a bit bright/sharp, sound wise I would prefer rather 110 degrees than 90 degrees.

With the omnis spaced 1 meter apart, an approx 20cm forward center pair spacing is not likely to alter the complex phase relationship between the omnis and center pair in a way that is problematic.  Generally, the center pair fwd spacing should be greater when the omni spacing is smaller, lass when wider. In the modeling and in my experience 20cm seems to work well across a wide range of cases. Positionong the center coincident pair somewhat forward of the omnis helps in aligning the imaging which results from the interaction between the coincident pair in the center and the omni over to one side, and vice versa for the center coincident pair and omni on the other side, without requiring any application of delay.

This is meaningful because in addition to the stereo image interaction between the left and right channels of the each separate individual pair (the omni pair, the coincident X/Y pair), there will also be stereo interaction between the left omni with the right center drectional microphone, and the right omni with the left center directional microphone.  These subsequent secondary pairs produce their own SRAs, which complicates things. Pushing the center pair forward by ~20cm or so helps to get these secondary SRAs to "hand-off" from one to the other across the center more so than simply overlaping, miminizing potentially conflicting imaging cues.

That said, the nature of organ music will tend to downplay imaging and emphasise steady-state tonal aspcts more so than other types of music, so tweaking the relationship between the three separate microphone positions in space in your situation my be more about finding the right tonal interaction, than optimizing image.

Use whatever X/Y angle you are most comfortable with and sounds best to you. Because I can alter the frequency response of that pair with EQ, and its stereo width with a mid/side ratio adjustment, I tend to choose X/Y angle based on how on or off-axis from the source I want each microphone if that pair to be in terms of center clarity and direct/reverberant ratio.

110 degrees is entirely reasonable.  If you find you want a bit more direct definition and clarity from that pair, narrow it up and adjust its EQ to comoensate if it gets too bright.

Thanks Gutbucket for all these really professional advices!

-> Reading back in the thread above: One option of the 4 mics placement was not discussed: Moving the inner (cardiod) mics outwards to the same location as the outer (omni) mics. This will set the left pair and right pair mics time wise the same (no toes stepping with regard to timing of arrival) but there is still the option of intruducing level differences by turning the mics outwards.
Mics: Rode NT55, DPA 4090, Neumann KM143
Recorder: Zoom F6

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2023, 01:19:52 PM »
One fundamental thing is that what you describe will act more like a two channel stereo microphone arrangement rather than a multichannel stereo microphone arrangement.

In terms of microphone array geometry, positioning each cardioid microphone so as to be as coincident as possible with the omni on either side (and recording all four channels separably) essentially creates a two channel stereo microphone configuration, but one which provides the ability to derive any pattern between omni and cardioid afterward, based upon how much cardioid verses how much omni is used in the mix.  100% omni with no cardioid = omni, 100% cardioid with no omni = cardioid, and equal measure of both = subcardioid.

How well that actually works will depend on how closely coincident the diaphragms of the two microphones on each side are placed, and how close the phase and frequency responses of each microphone are to each other.  In a real world situation, a less than perfect coincident alignment of the microphones (inevitable to some degree) will produce some phase interaction at very short wavelengths that corresponds to the (small) offset distance between diaphragms.  That is likely to be heard as either a somewhat dull or more shimmery high frequency treble when both pairs are used together at a near equal mix ratio.  In addition to that, inherent phase and response differences between the cardioid and omni will alter the shape of the resulting pattern somewhat in the range where they differ, in addition to altering tonal response somewhat as the ratio between the two pairs is adjusted.

That first part is all about how close the two microphones can be positioned to each other on each side.  In regard to the second part, just be aware that there will be some change in frequency response as well as some minor pattern alteration with frequency as the ratio between the two are adjusted in the mix. To reduce that influence you could EQ each pair so that they have a very similar response prior to combining them.

Because the two microphones on each side being mixed together are pointed the same way [edit- and mostly even if not, since one is an omni], the angle of the virtual pickup pattern produced as a result of the mix of the two will not differ from the direction the cardioid was pointed.  You just morph between omni and cardioid patterns while retaining the original angle of the cardioid.  [more edit- if you find the mix of the two sounds a bit more "dull" in the high frequency region than either alone, that may be due to some destructive cancellation at high frequencies from the microphone capsules being close yet not perfectly coincident.  In that case it may help to either cut the highs in one and boost in the other to compensate, thus eliminating the interference.. or to point the two microphones differently from each other while keeping them as close to each other as possible]


As always, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  You really need to try it and listen to decide if its achieving what you want.  This approach attempts to minimize potential problems by placing the additional microphones as close as possible to the first pair, while the opposite approach of spacing them differently attempts to minimize potential problems by getting the additional microphones sufficiently far enough apart from each other (but for other reasons not overly far).  The decision of which is better will come down to whether the sound of the interaction of the two differently spaced pairs dancing with each other appeals to your sense of what the organ should sound like in the recording or not. Forget about time of arrival and all the other theoretical stuff when listening back and determining which approach sounds most right.

« Last Edit: June 12, 2023, 06:11:08 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2023, 11:50:55 AM »

I'm teaching myself how to play the organ (on my Hammond M3 - funk and soul style not church type stuff) and I'd be real interested to hear some of your organ recordings if you have a place to share them.

Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

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Offline Organfreak

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2023, 03:36:49 AM »

I'm teaching myself how to play the organ (on my Hammond M3 - funk and soul style not church type stuff) and I'd be real interested to hear some of your organ recordings if you have a place to share them.



Hello Goodcooker, nice to hear there is another organist on this forum! An original Hammond organ with its tonewheel and tubes is a nice, warm and rounded sounding instrument. Do you have a separate Leslie box attached to the organ?

I have never posted my recordings anywhere. Just for own use, sometimes for family or friends; sometimes burn a few CD's. But not on the internet or commercial.
Do you have a suggestion where and how to post some recordings?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2023, 04:10:58 AM by Organfreak »
Mics: Rode NT55, DPA 4090, Neumann KM143
Recorder: Zoom F6

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2023, 09:54:28 AM »
I'm teaching myself how to play the organ (on my Hammond M3 - funk and soul style not church type stuff) and I'd be real interested to hear some of your organ recordings if you have a place to share them.
Hello Goodcooker, nice to hear there is another organist on this forum! An original Hammond organ with its tonewheel and tubes is a nice, warm and rounded sounding instrument. Do you have a separate Leslie box attached to the organ?
I have never posted my recordings anywhere. Just for own use, sometimes for family or friends; sometimes burn a few CD's. But not on the internet or commercial.
Do you have a suggestion where and how to post some recordings?

I don't use a Leslie - I have an M3 the baby brother of the B3. It has a built in amp and speaker since it was marketed for home use. There's a system for adding vibrato that is an approximation of the effect of a spinning Leslie but it's just not the same. Leslie pedals and outboard simulators are getting better and better every year though so maybe one of those is in my future after getting better as a player. I spent a large part of last night's Govt Mule show watching the spinning baffle in the Leslie amp onstage (they had the panel off) to see how the keyboard player was working the speed and brake controls. Voicing that instrument with the drawbars, percussion, different manuals and the speed of the rotating speaker is an art form in itself.

If you don't think there would be any problems with the players I would think the Community Audio section of the Internet Archive would be a good place to share some of your recordings. Otherwise you could put them in a Google drive where audio files can be sampled direct from the drive without having to download them.

Sorry for the derail. Back to microphone configs.

I used 2 mics for Govt Mule last night. I thought about using a center hyper in between my two subcards but decided to just decrease my spacing, increase my angle a little and run 2 channels. How much effort I'm willing to put in hauling gear, cables, batteries etc was down last night and it turned out just fine with 2 subcards 25cm spacing point at inside of stacks from 45 feet back.
Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline Organfreak

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2023, 08:34:12 AM »
I'm teaching myself how to play the organ (on my Hammond M3 - funk and soul style not church type stuff) and I'd be real interested to hear some of your organ recordings if you have a place to share them.
Hello Goodcooker, nice to hear there is another organist on this forum! An original Hammond organ with its tonewheel and tubes is a nice, warm and rounded sounding instrument. Do you have a separate Leslie box attached to the organ?
I have never posted my recordings anywhere. Just for own use, sometimes for family or friends; sometimes burn a few CD's. But not on the internet or commercial.
Do you have a suggestion where and how to post some recordings?

I don't use a Leslie - I have an M3 the baby brother of the B3. It has a built in amp and speaker since it was marketed for home use. There's a system for adding vibrato that is an approximation of the effect of a spinning Leslie but it's just not the same. Leslie pedals and outboard simulators are getting better and better every year though so maybe one of those is in my future after getting better as a player. I spent a large part of last night's Govt Mule show watching the spinning baffle in the Leslie amp onstage (they had the panel off) to see how the keyboard player was working the speed and brake controls. Voicing that instrument with the drawbars, percussion, different manuals and the speed of the rotating speaker is an art form in itself.

If you don't think there would be any problems with the players I would think the Community Audio section of the Internet Archive would be a good place to share some of your recordings. Otherwise you could put them in a Google drive where audio files can be sampled direct from the drive without having to download them.

Sorry for the derail. Back to microphone configs.

I used 2 mics for Govt Mule last night. I thought about using a center hyper in between my two subcards but decided to just decrease my spacing, increase my angle a little and run 2 channels. How much effort I'm willing to put in hauling gear, cables, batteries etc was down last night and it turned out just fine with 2 subcards 25cm spacing point at inside of stacks from 45 feet back.

Sorry goodcooker, but I could not find the location on taperssection to share some recordings. Maybe you can be a bit more specific. Can I post .wav files (16 bit, 44.1 kHz) or are these too big?

What subcards do you use? Recently I changed a brand new pair of KM184 for a used pair of KM143. Hope this was a good deal. The KM143 sounds beautiful.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2023, 01:33:58 PM by Organfreak »
Mics: Rode NT55, DPA 4090, Neumann KM143
Recorder: Zoom F6

Offline vantheman

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Re: Running more than 2 mics
« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2023, 09:40:00 PM »
I can finally share one of my projects from earlier in the year that utilized a 4 mic array. Curious to see how you all like it, and what you think of the mix captured by the onstage array. The band is the Chris Spedding Trio with Tony Garnier on bass and Anton Fig on drums at the Turning Point in Piermont, NY from January of this year. Tiny little room. The mic array consisted of 2 Line Audio OM1s spaced 3-4 feet apart and 2 Line Audio CM4s in XY into a Sound Devices MixPre10ii. I actually had the multis too, and I use a few of them here mostly to provide some light reinforcement to the live mix captured by the array, which is to say that what you're hearing is pretty true to what the array captured, and sweetened a tad by the multis. I have more info about it, and a link to download, here: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=202753.0.
Line Audio CM4/OM1> Sound Devices MixPre6ii

 

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