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Gear / Technical Help => Cables => Topic started by: checht on September 05, 2023, 12:56:44 PM
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At a show yesterday a friend was running a SBD feed back to where we had our stands, using a 200' cat6 cable and xlr breakout boxes on each end. He used Lyx boxes, seems like there's quite a few manufacturers though.
What's the consensus on this type of system compared to running a traditional snake?
If the quality is there, the weight advantage seems pretty awesome...
TIA
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I don't think these setups will work with use standard Ethernet cat6 RJ45 cables as there is no ground in the cable or on the connector.
You would need to use cat6 shielded connectors/cable and possible ethercon connectors and/or ethercon spec'd cable.
I would think professionally installed sound systems would us Ethercon for audio snakes tough
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Joining discussion. I've been curious about these for a while. A number of years ago I stopped by Jon of Naiant Studio's place when he was living in Kill Devil Hills on the NC outer banks, and at the time he was building a production run of the balun boxes needed at each end for another audio manufacturer. It reduced the need for four separate mic cables down to one thin, compact, lightweight wire.
Not sure about the CAT 5/6 ground issue. It may uses one (or several) of the conductors as ground, but even if that works, use of shielded Ethercon would be preferable.
Among others, I know Dave Rat's company sells them (not who Jon was building them for AFAIK). Was looking at the web page for them last year, but went no further than that.
A few more questions for the thread:
Seems like each cable carries 4 balanced lines. Is that the max channel count for one connection? Would 8 channels require two cables?
What about transmission of unbalanced signals? If that works can channel count per cable be increased? If so by how much?
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Just marking this thread as well. But these boxes look pretty cool. Seems awfully convenient.
https://www.lyxpro.com/products/lyxpro-4-channel-xlr-male-and-female-to-rj45-ethercon
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I would recommend CAT 6A or CAT 7 for this application, especially if used for phantom supplied mic lines, as it has shielded pairs as well as an overall shielded jacket. Because of the extra shielding these types are a bit stiffer and harder to terminate, so buying terminated cable off the rack is best, unless you have a good set of tools for the job.
For audio work we don't need to be concerned about higher bandwidth specs, but proper shielding and grounding are extremely important.
Good site here for specs and construction materials: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/know-your-cable-cat7-ethernet#:~:text=Cat7%20and%20Cat8%20cable%20are,is%20foil%20shielded%20as%20well.
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I would recommend CAT 6A or CAT 7 for this application, especially if used for phantom supplied mic lines, as it has shielded pairs as well as an overall shielded jacket. Because of the extra shielding these types are a bit stiffer and harder to terminate, so buying terminated cable off the rack is best, unless you have a good set of tools for the job.
For audio work we don't need to be concerned about higher bandwidth specs, but proper shielding and grounding are extremely important.
Good site here for specs and construction materials: https://www.truecable.com/blogs/cable-academy/know-your-cable-cat7-ethernet#:~:text=Cat7%20and%20Cat8%20cable%20are,is%20foil%20shielded%20as%20well.
Mr. Mac, what do you think of this cat6 option: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTV4JY1N/?coliid=I26GVZ8VHQQU21&colid=3DZZOP8FFXTR&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1
TIA
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checht, the link you provided is for CAT6 (not 6A) and looks to be well constructed. CAT6A will give you better crosstalk and RFI protection, but may not be a concern for your situation. If you were doing gigs in an environment where there was lots of RF spray (near comm towers, or dense city environs) I would hold out for 6A.
You can always buy it and return if it fails during real world test conditions in your area. A simple test would be to connect a couple of phantom powered mics and place a cell phone next to the cable.
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Thanks for your detailed advice for a noob to ethercon!
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I've done a little research on these after hearing about them from then-Belden rep Steve Lampen 10 years ago. I haven't bought one yet.
Many manufacturers have them, since the concept is simple, but you should look at a few factors. Anecdotally, I have not heard of any particular problem with such snakes, so I would get one if I had a need.
If you want to use UTP (unshielded twisted pair CAT) and phantom power, you are limited to 3 channels. The cable has 4 twisted pairs, so they have to use one pair for the P48 ground. No shield, so you rely only on the twist for common mode rejection. Apparently not a problem in most usage. Some people do this using pre-installed CAT cable that usually isn't shielded.
If you go with shielded CAT5 or higher, then you can get 4 balanced channels with P48. It's unclear what happens if you try UTP.
Note that different CAT cables have a different twist rate to each pair in an attempt to optimize certain performance criteria, such as for digital video. In theory, the audio noise performance could be slightly different between channels, but you have no way of knowing which is which. Probably only a theoretical problem for analog audio. I guess there may be a tiny higher amount of crosstalk, since all pairs are not separated and run parallel.
ETS for one, sells the 3 channel units for UTP as well as 4 channel units:
https://etslan.com/products.cgi?cat=9
And well known manufacturers include Whirlwind's Catdusa:
https://www.whirlwindusa.com/products/digital-audio-networking-cat-6-catdusa
and Radial's Catapult:
https://www.radialeng.com/product/catapult
You do see low-cost no-name products, probably not a problem if you understand the limitations. Same for the CAT cable.
I've heard that the ultimate interference test is a piezo barbecue fire igniter, clicked near the cable.
Edit: my faulty memory, the BBQ clicker was used on a digital snake testing shielded CAT5 vs. unshielded.
The upshot is that if you see 4 channels on unshielded CAT, it must not support phantom power, and the pairs won't be shielded.
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I've heard that the untimate interference test is a piezo barbecue fire igniter, clicked near the cable.
+T we used to hold the hydrophones near Florescent light fixtures. (the "switching" ballast is what causes the interference by oscillating the light frequencies inside the tubes.) EMI or RFI. It was a sure fire easy non technical way for us to do basic tests of interference. If it passed the Florescent test, we moved it along the assembly line toward approval, maybe put it in the submersible tester at that point.
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Oddly enough, after reading this thread I happened to spot a couple of ethercon boxes on Facebook Marketplace for $45. Just went and grabbed them, the guy said he did 4 mics with 48v all on a 300ft Cat5 cable, zero problems. However it was for a podcast in a home environment.
I do think a crowded venue with hundreds of cell phones is completely different, but alas real world tests are the best way to find out. I'll see if I can find a non-critical show where I can test out an old 50ft Cat5e cable that my dad made years ago and report the findings, probably won't be for a while though. I do have a small box of assorted snap-on ferrite beads that I'll have to try as well.
tip: Whenever I go into Goodwill and Arc to look through the book section, I try to glance through the electronics and cable section and I'm always seeing ethernet cables; I recently snagged a 25 ft. flat Cat7 cable for like $4.
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There are some folks on GS Remote Possibilities who have used these Ethernet baluns successfully, on very long cable runs. I seem to remember one of them recommending solid conductors vs. stranded.
One thing I can say as a former computer/network tech: You want to get actual copper cable (preferably CMR-rated), and avoid CCA (copper-clad aluminum).
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Cat5e STP (shielded twisted pair) works fine. I use stranded cable because it handles better.
FWIW, I find cross-talk quite acceptable, tested on the bench, which was quite surprising to me. Even at line level. Who woulda guessed?
D.
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Cat5e STP (shielded twisted pair) works fine. I use stranded cable because it handles better.
FWIW, I find cross-talk quite acceptable, tested on the bench, which was quite surprising to me. Even at line level. Who woulda guessed?
D.
Very interesting, especially with it being good at line level! If it sounds good (and measures good), it is good.
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Thanks for the info! 2 questions:
What cable are you using?
is cat6 ok, or is the issue that in 5e, each pair is shielded on its own?
Thanks!
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Cat5e is four twisted pair and one shield with a drain wire. In the analog XLR boxes, that shield is common to all four pair on Pin 1, and serves as the conductor to allow P48 on those four pair as well.
D.
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What Doug says, assuming you have "shielded" CAT5/6; the shield is over all the pairs, not individual pairs. Unshielded is probably more common (UTP, unshielded twisted pairs) since it seems to have been the original standard and is cheaper and easier to put connectors on. As noted previously, there are CAT snake boxes that use unshielded CAT cable but can only do 3 channels with P48, or 4 channels without P48. Buyer beware.
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I have been using these on occasion for a couple of years now with no issues. I have the LyxPro brand. I use a shielded CAT7 cable and have no issues with phantom or noise. I have used them with cable up to 50' long with no issues at all. So much easier to run a single ethernet cable.
(https://i.imgur.com/UoHDTGPl.jpg?1)
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I was thinking about an ethernet snake a year ago. I ended up buying a classic snake. I was worried that the ethernet snake would be fragile and I would damage it by winding it up frequently. But the advantage of ethernet cable is attractive, light, easily replaceable and low price. I am posting links here. These adapters should be able to carry phantom according to reviews.
https://www.thomannmusic.com/the_sssnake_cat_snake_3fc.htm?reload=1
https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_sssnake_cat_snake_3mc.htm
They also sell an ethernet cable, but it looks like it can't carry phantom because the cable cat6e has no shielding.
https://www.thomannmusic.com/pro_snake_cat6e_cable_10m.htm
If I understand correctly, the shielding (used for the phantom) connects via the external metal connector, not the ethernet connector (RJ45 is plastic and has only 8 pins).
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I have been using these on occasion for a couple of years now with no issues. I have the LyxPro brand. I use a shielded CAT7 cable and have no issues with phantom or noise. I have used them with cable up to 50' long with no issues at all. So much easier to run a single ethernet cable.
(https://i.imgur.com/UoHDTGPl.jpg?1)
Which cable are you using?
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https://www.markertek.com/product/ets-pa202f/ets-pa202f-instasnake-adapter-4-fxlr-to-rj45-jack-all-pins
I've been using this one for years with 150ft shielded cat6 cable for about a decade 48v on 4 channels, no issues.
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I finally bit the bullet and put together a 4 channel snake with boxes from Seismic Audio. I gave them a call to check on the compatibility since I was doing a sort of mix and match thing with the input side being the basic 4 XLRF connector box (like the Lyxpro ones) and the output side having 4 XLRM cable breakouts. This makes more sense for me and keeps the weight down a little eliminating the breakout cables on the inputs and not requiring separate cables on the output side. All in $80 bucks free shipping.
Output side - https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/products/saet-4m-3-4-channel-rj45-ethercon-to-xlr-male-breakout-audio-snake-cable-3-feet?variant=40494360657989 (https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/products/saet-4m-3-4-channel-rj45-ethercon-to-xlr-male-breakout-audio-snake-cable-3-feet?variant=40494360657989)
Input side - https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/collections/all/products/sasb-et4f-4-channel-xlr-female-to-ethercon-network-cable-adapter-extender (https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/collections/all/products/sasb-et4f-4-channel-xlr-female-to-ethercon-network-cable-adapter-extender)
They actually went and got the items I was looking for, hooked them up and continuity tested them to make sure they worked together for me while I was on the phone. I like it.
Now to find out if the ethercon cable I ordered does the trick. I'm hearing from users that it's very important to have STP - shielded twisted pair - cable for this application but specs for a lot of these items is somewhat scarce. I ordered a cable from GearIt. $50 for 50 feet. It's the same cable they include with their snake boxes so hopefully it all pans out.
I hope to do some charitable recording and streaming at the local Jazz Festival (all the revenues fund education programs) in the coming months and this will make it lots easier to get onstage mics run to an out of the way location without hauling a tote full of XLR cables.
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I finally bit the bullet and put together a 4 channel snake with boxes from Seismic Audio. I gave them a call to check on the compatibility since I was doing a sort of mix and match thing with the input side being the basic 4 XLRF connector box (like the Lyxpro ones) and the output side having 4 XLRM cable breakouts. This makes more sense for me and keeps the weight down a little eliminating the breakout cables on the inputs and not requiring separate cables on the output side. All in $80 bucks free shipping.
Output side - https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/products/saet-4m-3-4-channel-rj45-ethercon-to-xlr-male-breakout-audio-snake-cable-3-feet?variant=40494360657989 (https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/products/saet-4m-3-4-channel-rj45-ethercon-to-xlr-male-breakout-audio-snake-cable-3-feet?variant=40494360657989)
Input side - https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/collections/all/products/sasb-et4f-4-channel-xlr-female-to-ethercon-network-cable-adapter-extender (https://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/collections/all/products/sasb-et4f-4-channel-xlr-female-to-ethercon-network-cable-adapter-extender)
They actually went and got the items I was looking for, hooked them up and continuity tested them to make sure they worked together for me while I was on the phone. I like it.
Now to find out if the ethercon cable I ordered does the trick. I'm hearing from users that it's very important to have STP - shielded twisted pair - cable for this application but specs for a lot of these items is somewhat scarce. I ordered a cable from GearIt. $50 for 50 feet. It's the same cable they include with their snake boxes so hopefully it all pans out.
I hope to do some charitable recording and streaming at the local Jazz Festival (all the revenues fund education programs) in the coming months and this will make it lots easier to get onstage mics run to an out of the way location without hauling a tote full of XLR cables.
Thanks for sharing all the detail and links. I'm going to try something similar this year. :headphones:
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I'll be curious to hear how this turns out. I've been on the fence about getting one of these type of snakes versus making my own 4 channel snake with Mogami / Redco cable.
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I use these things a fair amount, sometimes running 300ft+ of Cat 5 cable from stage to FOH for instance. Huge time saver and can save the day. One unnerving thing about them is when they fail, they can fail spectacularly especially when phantom power is involved. Since all 4 lines share a common ground, if the ground conductor is compromised, there goes all 4 of your signals at once
For mission critical signals, I usually include a spare cat 5 line to those boxes so we can swap it over just in case
I suspect in install applications where the cat 5 is being run through a stud wall and terminated to two wall plates, there is way less chance for damage than in a touring situation where you're unwrapping and wrapping it up twice a day
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So after a couple of hiccups I got this up and running today. Set up four phantom powered mics with my SD Mixpre6 and everything is working as expected.
Using this 50 foot cable - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTV5ZZ41?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BTV5ZZ41?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1) from GearIt. $50. It's cheap and kinda feels like it. It has a pretty robust rubber jacket and that's what I wanted since I'll likely be taping it to the floor in some spots or using it on stage where it could get stepped on. For $1 a foot it's worth trying it out. Looking further there's cheaper cables from GLS and similarly priced ones from ProCo. I ended up with the parts to make another so I might try a different cable for the next one.
Long story short - I ordered a input box with female jacks and an output side with cables from Seismic Audio. See the links I posted a few comments up. They mistakenly sent me two of the input side instead and one of those two was a two pack so I have 3 input boxes. I emailed them and said I would order another output box if they let me keep the extra input. Made sense so they sent me two output boxes with 3 foot XLR cables. They are in Memphis and it was all iced up for several days and it took them a while but I got the stuff today.
This is probably not a cheaper solution than a typical snake but it's modular and probably weighs much less than most of them. I'm in for $125 for a 50 foot four channel. I like the idea that I can have more than one cable and attach them with a small light weight coupler if needed.