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Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: flipp on July 11, 2014, 08:05:56 PM
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I may be in the market for a new recorder. One requirement is AES in. I know the following have it, are there any others I am either forgetting or didn't know they had AES in?
Fostex FR2
Roland R4pro
SD boxes
I am hoping to avoid having to convert AES to S/PDIF.
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Tascam HS-P82 - has 4 x AES inputs
Fostex PD-6, PD606
Sonosax minir82
Sonosax SX-R4. In process of being replaced
Aeta 4minx
Zaxcom Nomad
Zaxcom Maxx
Nagra LB
Nagra 7
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appreciate the info; now to do some more research
anyone have others to add to the list?
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ROLAND R88
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I may be in the market for a new recorder. One requirement is AES in. I know the following have it, are there any others I am either forgetting or didn't know they had AES in?
Fostex FR2
Roland R4pro
SD boxes
I am hoping to avoid having to convert AES to S/PDIF.
There's various AES standards. Even for just digital mics, which is what I assume you mean. You can convert, more or less, AES3 to/from S/PDIF since the bit streams are the same IIRC. You'll probably want a converter box to match electrical characteristics.
The newer and, to me at least, more interesting mic spec. is AES42. And this comes in a couple of flavors. AES42 mode 1 seems to be little more than a wrapper around AES3, with some physical characteristics (digital phantom power is +10VDC for example). AES42 mode 2 is the one that allows control of the mic from the mixer/recorder/other-end-of-the-cable. If you want to control, say, a Neumann KM 185 D, then you'll want a device that supports that control. One such device is the Neumann DMI-2 portable.
If you want that functionality built into a field mixer (as I do), well, there's very little to choose from. Basically, it's just the new Anton Cantar X3 which isn't on the market quite yet.
Why is mode 2 important to a Taper? It's the mode that lets the mixer be the word clock master. And this makes stereo recording that much cleaner. With a mode 1 system, each mic is its own word clock master, and the mixer has to re-sample each mic input to sync them on word clock boundaries. Which pretty much defeats the point of putting the A>D on the mic body, and adds cost to the mixer. AES42 mode 2 avoids this -- all mics are always in sync with the mixer they are plugged into so no re-sampling takes place.
While there are a few digital mics out there (40 or so last I heard), most of them are AES42 mode 1 mics and thus aren't very interesting to me. A few are AES42 mode 2 mics, mainly from Neumann and with an interesting module from Sennheiser, the MZD 8000. Then, there aren't any AES42 mode 2 mixer/recorders out there yet -- you have to buy a Neumann DMI-2 to talk to a pair of mics. All of which just makes going the AES42 mode 2 route prohibitive. Too much cost, too many add-on boxes, more cables. Too much pain for too little gain in my book.
When it comes to AES 42 mode 1 and AES3, I think this thread has already listed all the mixers/recorders I know about.
AES 42 mode 2 is a great idea. It would solve a lot of problems, not least is making our location mixer/recorders smaller, cheaper, and lighter. I'd love to support it. But the manufacturers of analog mic-pres and the devices that use them aren't in any hurry to cede any control (or profits) to the microphone manufacturers. So if you want this, you're going to have to make your voice heard. Which means talking to your favorite vendors, etc. Just sayin'.
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I hadn't even considered digital mics in my quest for AES input in a recorder.
Too much cost, too many add-on boxes, more cables. Too much pain for too little gain in my book.
When it comes to AES 42 mode 1 and AES3, I think this thread has already listed all the mixers/recorders I know about.
More add-on boxes/cables/converters is what I am trying to avoid. If anyone knows of any other recorders with AES in, please chime in. There are some nice options for upgrading but since this is just a hobby for me, I can't justify the outlay for a Zaxcom or Nagra. In the meantime I'll continue to use my FR2.
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I hadn't even considered digital mics in my quest for AES input in a recorder.
My bad then. Sorry.
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I hadn't even considered digital mics in my quest for AES input in a recorder.
My bad then. Sorry.
Don't be. As one of my siblings says "multiple heads are almost always better than one", which is why I asked; the TSKB is full of knowledge.
It's an aspect I hadn't even considered and with digi mics becoming more prevalent it is something I need to factor into my research. While I don't have any digital mics at the moment, I can see the day when I will be considering them and therefore need to factor that into my decision of what, and when, to purchase a new recorder.
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The sound device sd633 has aes3 and aes42
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The sound device sd633 has aes3 and aes42
Yes, AES42 mode 1. SD has said publicly (http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/recorders/788/aes-42-support-in-788t/) that it isn't ready/willing to support AES42 mode 2: "As AES 42 hardware becomes available from manufacturers such as Neumann, Schoeps, and Sennheiser, Sound Devices will evaluate its application in mixers and recorders. The identified benefits of AES 42 appear real for some applications. Whether they prove to be a demonstrable for field production remains to be seen."
My interpretation for what it's worth (probably not much) is that SD makes excellent mic preamps and makes a healthy profit from them. It shouldn't surprise anyone that they don't want to give that up. So it's going to take a sizable push from the marketplace to make them support AES42 mode 2. Until then, they are determined to remain skeptical. Who can blame them?
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I might be wrong, but I always thought of AES digital input as kinda one of the main things that differentiated gear that's condidered 'pro' versus the stuff that's called 'consumer'. Seems like it's a feature of the high-end digital recorder of a company's line at any given time in their product line, at least over the last number of years.
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Tascam DR-680 coax digital-in is switchable between spdif and AES/EBU. But like I said it's a coax connector and not an XLR connector.
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I hadn't even considered digital mics in my quest for AES input in a recorder.
My bad then. Sorry.
I appreciate the succinct description of AES variations and see at least one of the reasons now why AES42 mics are not more prevalent considering the impact it could have on companies like SD.
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I may be in the market for a new recorder. One requirement is AES in. I know the following have it, are there any others I am either forgetting or didn't know they had AES in?
Fostex FR2
Roland R4pro
SD boxes
I am hoping to avoid having to convert AES to S/PDIF.
There's various AES standards. Even for just digital mics, which is what I assume you mean. You can convert, more or less, AES3 to/from S/PDIF since the bit streams are the same IIRC. You'll probably want a converter box to match electrical characteristics.
The newer and, to me at least, more interesting mic spec. is AES42. And this comes in a couple of flavors. AES42 mode 1 seems to be little more than a wrapper around AES3, with some physical characteristics (digital phantom power is +10VDC for example). AES42 mode 2 is the one that allows control of the mic from the mixer/recorder/other-end-of-the-cable. If you want to control, say, a Neumann KM 185 D, then you'll want a device that supports that control. One such device is the Neumann DMI-2 portable.
If you want that functionality built into a field mixer (as I do), well, there's very little to choose from. Basically, it's just the new Anton Cantar X3 which isn't on the market quite yet.
Why is mode 2 important to a Taper? It's the mode that lets the mixer be the word clock master. And this makes stereo recording that much cleaner. With a mode 1 system, each mic is its own word clock master, and the mixer has to re-sample each mic input to sync them on word clock boundaries. Which pretty much defeats the point of putting the A>D on the mic body, and adds cost to the mixer. AES42 mode 2 avoids this -- all mics are always in sync with the mixer they are plugged into so no re-sampling takes place.
While there are a few digital mics out there (40 or so last I heard), most of them are AES42 mode 1 mics and thus aren't very interesting to me. A few are AES42 mode 2 mics, mainly from Neumann and with an interesting module from Sennheiser, the MZD 8000. Then, there aren't any AES42 mode 2 mixer/recorders out there yet -- you have to buy a Neumann DMI-2 to talk to a pair of mics. All of which just makes going the AES42 mode 2 route prohibitive. Too much cost, too many add-on boxes, more cables. Too much pain for too little gain in my book.
When it comes to AES 42 mode 1 and AES3, I think this thread has already listed all the mixers/recorders I know about.
AES 42 mode 2 is a great idea. It would solve a lot of problems, not least is making our location mixer/recorders smaller, cheaper, and lighter. I'd love to support it. But the manufacturers of analog mic-pres and the devices that use them aren't in any hurry to cede any control (or profits) to the microphone manufacturers. So if you want this, you're going to have to make your voice heard. Which means talking to your favorite vendors, etc. Just sayin'.
To answer a few things.
Yes the Data on AES3 and S-PDIF is almost identical (not completely identical) as track markers are carried by S-PDIF and not by AES3, for example.
Voltage levels are different - though you can, in practice, just plug one into the other and they work fine.
AES42 mode-1 and mode-2 work basically as described.
All recorders i know of seem to only take in mode-1 at the moment with no control over level (bar one).
As far as I know, only the 4MinX allows level control of the AES3 and AES42 inputs.
The new Aaton Cantar is due out in September at a cost of about €15,000 I understand (the 4MinX starts at around £3,000).
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The 633 and 788t supports digital gain(level control) for AES mics
I would be supprised if the Zaxcom maxx/nomads don't support digital gain also