Topic: help with post-recording of Feist at Hammerstein Ballroom

[dimm0k]

Here's a link to a sample of a recording I did recently using a Sony MZ-R700 MD and CA 9100 preamp and cardiod mics.  Any recommendations on what I can do to clean up this recording and what I can do for future recordings?

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1YV117P1

[vanark]

What is it that you aren't happy with about the recording? The drums seem a little high in the mix and the vocals a little low but was that house mix?  Sounds like it.

[dimm0k]

House mix?  I'm content with the recording other than what you mentioned that the vocals are a little low...  I tried to use envelope to lower the applause and then bump up the entire recording with amplify, but that didn't give me much.  Both were done in Audacity...

[danlynch]

If you're trying to get more vocals, use a 20-band EQ in Soundforge (or similar program) and bring up the
mids pretty heavily. 

[jacobmyers]

If you're trying to get more vocals, use a 20-band EQ in Soundforge (or similar program) and bring up the
mids pretty heavily. 

Not a good idea. Those peaks are pretty high already and using a 20-band EQ for this is like using a hammer to cut a tomato (it might "work" but it'll be ugly). What you'll want to do, FIRST, fix that DC offset. Did you do anything to this except transfer it to the computer and compress to MP3?

 OK. So why don't you want to follow Dan's advice? Because the vocal is too "spread out" frequency-wise to target it effectively. A safer bet is to bring down the drums (which are stupid loud). You'll want to choose loud snare hits, for instance, analyze them, and apply a filter to the dominant frequencies. And you'll want to do this carefully, with a narrow (1/8 octave) filter, so as to just alter the offending frequencies. When you get to the cymbals, you'll want to go broader to get the "shimmer". And, similar to Dan's suggestion, a broad +1-2 dB 'bump' in the vocal range wouldn't be a bad idea. You don't want to do anything "heavy" with EQ if you're interested in preserving the quality of the recording.

 The problem with the mix isn't that the vocal was too low. It's that the drums were too loud. The other instruments sound well-balanced but the drums bury everything. It could have been the house mix (if the "engineer" had drummer spunk in their ears). It may have been your position in the room. Say, if you were very close to the stage and far enough off-axis from the PA stacks, you'd pick up more of the acoustic sound of the drum kit and less of the amplified vocals.

 It'll take some work to get those drums down to a reasonable volume. Of course, you could apply dynamic compression (multi-band, preferably) if you want to go with "quick and dirty". It may not sound as good as careful filtering and normalization but it is faster. The drums are going to remain very present in the mix no matter what you do and you can't create fidelity in the vocal that wasn't in the recording. Honestly, this recording is OK for casual listening (at low volumes) as it is and I don't know how much good you'd be able to do for it.

 I was able, after a little experimenting, to get the vocal to seem slightly more present. The drums were still unreasonably loud. Good luck!

[danlynch]

Perhaps I should have listened to the sample before making a generalized EQ suggestion.  I have used the heavy boost of the mids to "recover" vocals in a recording on more than one occasion.  Obviously, you sacrifice some of the natural dynamics, but there are always decisions to be made.

One of my pet peeves is the sound-persons who over-mix the drums.  That is a problem that I have not been able to rectify in post-production.  A heavy hit here or there is not a problem, but the consistently boosted drums are really a pain in the ass.  I'm going to save Jacob's post for future reference.
 

[beaglegriffon]

Not trying to be a dink but Get an Edirol R-09 and it does the work for you, y'all are missing the show spending to much time with your rigs. My recordings are perfect.

[jacobmyers]

<snip> One of my pet peeves is the sound-persons who over-mix the drums. <snip>

One of mine is the phrase "pet peeve" but I wholeheartedly concur with your sentiment. Though I don't think I'd use the phrase "over-mix" (which would seem to imply that they worked too hard on the mix). A drum kit can be difficult to put in its place in the mix. I have a "formula" that I use and it works pretty well in a live setting. It's way out of the scope of this topic, though.

 What I really can't stand are shitty drummers; the ones who are heavy-handed and are too deaf to realize it (or too egotistical to care), the ones who play conservatively during sound check and then go "Animal" during the performance, the ones whose 120 dB snare drum sounds like a gym ball with fender washers inside it (and they usually are very proud of the sound of their snare). It's distinctive, surely, but only in the way that it sounds like shit. And drummers who don't tune their drums are as irritating as guitarists who don't tune or intonate their instruments. I'm "in" to alternate tunings but a sour note is a sour note. That shit may have worked for (some of) the "New Wave" but $30 chromatic tuners didn't exist back then. But I guess that's why the "big names" have technicians - to make sure that everything sounds good. And it's always a shame when it doesn't (Pixies at the Fox in Detroit? Awful!) Sorry. I had to get that out.

 I am curious, dimm0k, how close to the stage were you when you recorded this? I forgot to ask in the previous reply. I (until recently) used a MZR700 for location recording. What I'm doing to improve my future recordings is ditch the MD and get solid state! Seriously, though; one thing you could do is head for the mezzanine (the front part of the balcony) in a venue with balcony seating. It'll put you up out of the crowd and put the remainder of the crowd more or less behind you (out of the cardioid pattern). Usually, the mezzanine is also the "sweet spot" of the venue; with some nice line arrays and competent sound technicians, it'll be like sitting at home but with hundreds of people and live musicians.

 Not trying to be snobbish, Beagle, but the only way I'd use an R-09 is if someone gave it to me. Even then, I'd have my reservations. I don't doubt that you can make good recordings on it. I've heard some recordings made with those machines that I could listen to more than twice. But the fact that you call your recordings "perfect" is laughable.

 I've made recordings through $25k consoles with $8k microphones that I would call "very nice". Of course, the same could be said for recordings I've done with a $400 8-track and a combined $300 in microphones. So, clearly, price isn't much of a factor at that level. Lately, I've been making "OK" recordings with my home MD deck, a scavenged mixer, and an NT4. Next month, I hope to start capturing "impressive" (thanks for the adjective, Doug) recordings with a PMD660 and the NT4.

 I truly want to hear what you're calling "perfect". Seriously. May I have links to these recordings of yours?

[danlynch]

Hammerstein Ballroom where this was recorded, is an absolute acoustical nightmare.  Its a cavernous old ballroom with high ceilings -- the kind of place where sound goes to die.  The mezz sections are particularly bad since they sit all the way back from the floor -- way too far from the PA to get signal with any clarity.

I recorded Flaming Lips from the mezz there, and it sounded like ass.  One of my worst efforts, and ironically the one recording that got a write-up in Rolling Stone (Oct 2006).  When I recorded Morrissey there, I had a better mezz spot, and the recording came out great.  But my secret for Morrissey was not that I was in the mezz, but rather that I had a stroke of luck of sitting right next to a relay speaker.  The sound is so bad in the mezz in this venue that the venue actually recently installed speakers in there to allow people to actually hear the concert rather than just a mush of boomy noise.

My best recording from the Hammerstein was the Wilco show last June when I set up directly in front of the board about 50 feet back -- a pretty standard sweet spot.  I also had the advantage at that show of having Wilco's soundman, who did an excellent job.

[jacobmyers]

Hammerstein Ballroom where this was recorded, is an absolute acoustical nightmare.  Its a cavernous old ballroom with high ceilings -- the kind of place where sound goes to die.  The mezz sections are particularly bad since they sit all the way back from the floor -- way too far from the PA to get signal with any clarity.
<snip>
My best recording from the Hammerstein was the Wilco show last June when I set up directly in front of the board about 50 feet back -- a pretty standard sweet spot.  I also had the advantage at that show of having Wilco's soundman, who did an excellent job.

 LMAO @ your description ("...where sound goes to die"). I've never been to that venue and, judging by that you've written, I'm glad. We have a monster of a theatre here (the largest indoor movie screen in the state, as I recall) and the sound there is generally reasonably good if the person behind the mixer is anywhere near competent. That said, I've been there on a few nights that made me want to shove the guy out of the way and mix the performance myself. It was built for live theater (complete with orchestra pit) and the sound from the mezzanine is "as it should be" (which is why I suggested the position to dimm0k).

 I have a gig there after the summer and I'm going to have to check it out (and ensure that the sound-tech is capable of doing what they're being paid for) before I decide where to set up. I may go for a main floor setup like you did with Wilco. But I really like the sound of that room and don't know if I'll be able to resist putting my stand on the balcony. Time will tell...

[dimm0k]

Sorry guys for the late response, been too busy to experiment with the suggestions and in responding to the inquiries.  I suppose the problem with my recordings, not just this one, is because of where I am positioned while recording.  I'm usually right up in front of the stage and as jacobmyers pointed out, "Say, if you were very close to the stage and far enough off-axis from the PA stacks, you'd pick up more of the acoustic sound of the drum kit and less of the amplified vocals." this seems to be why.  If I have no choice but to stay close to the stage, are there any tips I can use to better my future recordings?