Topic: Hi-MD problem

[twoheadedboy]

I have a problem guys...I sold my (what I thought to be) perfectly functioning NHF-800 recorder to a person. That person is claiming that the recorder does not record at the right speed as compared to two other devices he has that do not vary more than 1/30 sec per hour, and in fact the MD is off as much as 3 1/2 - 8 minutes per hour (he claims it varies, that it's not off by the same amount each time)!

First of all,

1) I didn't think speed issues could be a problem with a digital recorder, especially one that records to magneto-optical media?
2) He's mentioned that he saw this fact by trying to sync it up on the computer. But if it was off by over 13% (as 8 minutes per hour would be), that would be EXTREMELY noticeable just by listening, would be WAY too slow or way too fast.

I've recorded a few shows with the unit, and there's no way the speed is off by 13% at any time. Only one of my 4 shows that I have readily available has an alternate source. If this is a possibility, would somebody be able to compare the two files of one show to see if the speed is off? The other was done on DAT and both sound the same (speed-wise) to me. I'd be happy to send the other audio too but I'm not sure if you can tell anything without another source to compare it to?

The other thing that bothers me is that he threatened to report me to paypal in his very first e-mail about the situation, and is now demanding that I accept a return on the product, which he will send back once I paypal him his cash. I've heard all the horror stories about using paypal and how the seller gets screwed but as long as I have used them, I have never had any problems with private transactions (this was not related to ebay or anything else). I don't have any money in my paypal account to be concerned with, but what I'm afraid of at this point is getting reported and having paypal dip into my checking account to pay this guy back without any kind of dispute procedure as they have been known to do. I sold this unit due to a financial hardship situation and therefore a "chargeback" of the $115 I sold it for (I sent tons of blanks too) could cause me not to be able to pay bills this month. I suppose I could put a block on my checking account to prevent paypal transactions from it? I don't want to remove my checking account information from paypal because that will look suspicious.

The other thing that bothers me besides him wanting me to return the cash before he sends it back is that he wants me to paypal it to a different email than the one he's contacting me with, and the images that supposedly "prove" this speed issue are hosted on a webserver with still a 3rd username and domain, though the website username matches the forum username where he originates and that's been around since 3/03. Finally, his posts about buying my MD and the "I'm having a problem" thread at the board were his first posts in almost a year (10/05) at which time he was posting about how Hi-MD and MD in general is dead, so it makes me wonder if his account was hacked to screw me (and possibly others?) over?

I don't really know what to do at this point, but I guess I'll start off with my original two questions: 1) is it possible for the speed to be off, and 2) can someone help me determine it by recordings I've made with the unit?

[BayTaynt3d]

I personally wouldn't send him the money until you had your unit back. That leaves you in a much better position if this guy is messing with you. If he really wants his money back, then he can send it back, otherwise if he keeps it, then you got paid what you're owed. Tough spot to be in, but I personally wouldn't relinquish the position you are in just yet... Whatever, let him "report" you. You can just tell paypal that you'll refund the money just as soon as he sends the unit back untouched. Will any retailer out there give you a refund before you make the return? Hell no...

[twoheadedboy]

That's what I'm saying. I've taken the steps to close my paypal account; I'd rather deal with a collection letter for them trying to get money from me, than for them to take the money and me have to deal with trying to get it back. I'm running on a VERY tight budget and getting ripped off would be disasterous. I first tried to get my bank to block paypal payments, which they wouldn't do; I could only dispute the charge once it happened. Between them and paypal (see http://www.paypalsucks.com if you never have before), why do I have to wait to be screwed and then get my money back, instead of being able to take precautionary measures to prevent it in the first place? Why is the seller in a "lower caste" than the buyer?

In any event, assuming the best - that this isn't a con attempt - I'd still like to come up with a solution for the problem. I'd like to be able to either A) prove it's not malfunctioning, or at least wasn't as I sent it, or B) determine the cause of the problem and how to fix it (or C) both). Any help would be appreciated.

[Roving Sign]

You need to ask him for more details about what he's doing and how he's doing it...(what speed is he mastering at...how is he getting it on a computer?)

Time issues are a fact of life in digital recording...especially if he using some of the MD modes (ATRAC compression)

Look at some of the "matrix" threads - you just can't sync-up two sources because of minor differences in the A/D word clock...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=71019.msg957024#msg957024

[King Ghidora]

Boy you have a helluva nerve there Chris.  You know good and well I'm telling the truth here.  Yet here you are trying to hide from the truth.  I showed you the proof.  What the heck good does it do me to say any of this?  How am I getting over on you?  Your piece of crap MD is screwed up and you screwed me.  Yeah close that Paypal account.  Wouldn't want to do the right thing or anything.  You won't even answer my emails you prick.

I recorded 30 minutes on 2 video cameras and this md.  I load all the files onto a computer.  I put them all in Vegas on a timeline.  The MD is off by 2 and half minutes out of 30.  Now how is that right?  I recorded in PCI by the way. 

I have another MD.  It isn't off more than 1 frame in an hour.  That's 1/29th of a second in 60 minutes.  This MD I got from you has been off by as much as 4 minutes in half an hour.

This MD is screwed.  What do I have to gain by saying thise?  Am I going to send you back another MD or nothing?  Yeah right.  That's why I sent you the money first.  Because I'm such a con man.  That's just stupid to even think.  I'm going to buy another one as soon as I get my money back from you if that ever happens. 

And screw a bunch of sending you the unit first.  You ain't screwing me again.  I sent you my money first.  I trusted you.  Boy was that a big mistake.

Anyone who's interested can look at the same screen captures I showed you.  You'll find them at http://www.fotop.net/KingGhidora/MD_problem.  They show the whole timeline in Vegas, where the tracks are synced at the beginning, and what they look like at the end.  Click on each photo to see it enlarged.  You'll see what I see, a MD that records horribly.

Yeah close your Paypal account Chris.  No sense doing the right thing.  You won't even answer my emails now.  How's that fair?  You don't ask for more info.  You hide.

I'll answer any question, I'll provide any proof, I'll do what it takes.  I'm the one that got screwed here.  Chris is full of crap.  I have a tight budget too Chris.  And you think you're getting screwed?  How?  By taking back what you sold me?  I trusted you.  You screwed me.  I'm the one that's getting ripped off here.

How is it right when a MD records half an hour of audio and it says it's only 26 minutes of audio?  If you don't know that's screwed up you ain't too smart.

And what's this crap about a different email.  I didn't have the current email when I set up my Paypal account.  And that photo server is a well known, world wide photo hosting site.  I can post the images anywhere you like pay.  But to think that fotop is some conspiracy site is just stupid.  Why don't you check their web site pal.  They offer photo hosting.  Sheesh.  What a jerk you're being. 

Check anywhere on the net.  You won't find a word about where I screwed anyone.  I'm not hard to find either.  Check anywhere you like.  Do a search for King Ghidora.  I use that name everywhere.  See if you don't find my name used on Camcorder Info, and the Panasonic camcorder site, and the minidisc site where I found you and ATV Wild and the Wayne Gang.  You'll find me using that name a lot of other places too.  Ask anywhere if I've ever ripped off anyone.  Ask if I've ever tried to run a con game.  Check this site.  I post here too.  Then check eBay under KingGhidora_PlanetX.  See what my rating is there.  It's 100%.  I've never come close to ripping anyone off on the web.  All you had to do was ask for references.  I could have given them to you.  But you go ahead and assume I'm the one trying to screw you.  Yeah right.

I went to Paypal right off just because I figure you had to know that MD was screwed up when you sold it.  If you don't you're mighty stupid.  Yet here I am having to chase you all over the web to get you to make it right.  I have money problems too pal.  I could have given you time to pay.  But no you hid from me you prick.  Cancel your paypal account and hide you jerk.

[King Ghidora]

You need to ask him for more details about what he's doing and how he's doing it...(what speed is he mastering at...how is he getting it on a computer?)

Time issues are a fact of life in digital recording...especially if he using some of the MD modes (ATRAC compression)

Look at some of the "matrix" threads - you just can't sync-up two sources because of minor differences in the A/D word clock...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=71019.msg957024#msg957024

We aren't talking minor differences.  I'm talking 4 minutes off in half an hour.  My other MD isn't off more than one frame in an hour.  This MD gets off by 8 minutes an hour.  That's not right.  I offered him all the proof he wanted.  Now he hides from me.  He's being a real jerk about this.  He sold me a bum MD and won't make it right.

BTW people sync MD sound and video all the time.  Check the Camcorder Info board.  You'll find me there and hundreds of others syncing video and MD sound all the time.  I can give you samples where I did just that.

Yeah I'm trying to screw him.  I got screwed by him.  That's the truth.  He sold me a crap MD and he probably knew it was crap when he sold it.

[dunebug81]

In any retail situation you dont refund the money w/o getting the merch back first.  you couldnt demand that walmart refund your money if you didnt bring them the defective unit back...theres no difference here.  Closing the paypal account may not have been the best move cause it can be seen as hes trying to do something shady.  If you both are trying to do things on the up and up then you need to send back the MD first and let him take a look at it. 

[King Ghidora]

This guy isn't Walmart.  But I would have considered sending it back to let him check it before he stopped answering my emails and came on here talking about closing his Paypal account so they can't make this right.  That sure sounds pretty shady to me.  I sent him my money on faith before he sent me anything.  It's time he trusts me a little.  He obviously doesn't.  He has no reason to think that.

I couldn't believe anyone would have not known how bad this MD is screwed up.  That's why I questioned him hard about it when I found out it was messed up.  Surely he knew about this.  I recorded with PCI and uploaded through the USB cable.  It isn't the software.  I checked that.  It's the recorder. 

When I have 3 different devices all saying a recording should be half an hour and this MD says it's 26 minutes there is something very wrong with that recorder.  My old MD works fine.  I know how they should work.  I've been involved with audio equipment for 30 years or more.  I know what I'm doing.  I offered references to that effect.  He didn't bother asking about it.  He just jumped to the wacky conclusion that I was trying to get over on him.  I don't know why on earth he thinks that.  I sent him money not knowing if he would send me anything in return.  But he doesn't trust me.  That sucks.

I understand people having problems with money.  I have them myself.  But right is right and wrong is wrong and this MD is wrong and he needs to make it right.

Again I use this name all over the net.  My character is easy to check.  I found his hangouts.  I told him where mine are.  He could check for others if he wants.  There isn't one person on the net that will say I have tried to screw them.  He needs to have some faith in me for a change.  I had faith in him already.  He has given me lots of reason not to trust him.  I haven't done one thing to make him think I'm not honest.  I didn't stop answering his emails.  I didn't try to shut down my Paypal account.  Both of those things are VERY shady.  I'm not about to trust him again.  I don't screw anyone.  My faith doesn't allow that. I just don't do that.  His character is very much in question though.

You watch.  He won't respond here either.  He's hiding.

[King Ghidora]

I'm starting to see why he calls himself two headed boy.  Most people use the term two faced instead of two headed.  He still hasn't answered my emails.  He still won't respond here either.  Tell me he's not hiding.  How is this not him being shady?

I know you're on the board Chris.  Why don't you answer my questions?

[twoheadedboy]

I responded on minidisc.org Sunday morning, but you apparently didn't see that reply. As for not answering your e-mails, I stopped replying to you after you showed yourself to be unreasonable in wanting me to return your money before you send the product back, and by filling a paypal dispute less than 18 hours after you sent me an e-mail with a bunch of supposed pictures of different soundfiles (which was sent 28 hours after my response, so you didn't even give me the same amount of time to respond that you gave yourself). I hadn't responded to this thread yet because I really don't have the time; I work 2nd shift and go to college fulltime online besides that, plus am married, etc. You filed a dispute with paypal, so I was waiting for them to inform me as to how to respond since I had closed my account. They had replied to me once already, but the information was not helpful. Believe me, I was not ignoring the matter (as is evident by this thread and the one at minidisc.org), but since you decided to escalated it beyond our email contact, I decided that my replies would go through your escalated channel - paypal.

Through this whole process, you've been incredibly abusive and impatient...I see you sent me another e-mail and it was filled with profanity, haven't read anything but a few lines because I don't have time to deal with it right now, and since paypal (rightly) denied your claim, you're just going to have to wait a little bit longer. I see you sent me a PM here too, and I'm sure that's more of the same. The only reason I came on the board tonight was to seek out information on another problem, but saw this so I thought I would respond so that maybe you would stop libeling me. This seems to be a major problem with you, not just this transaction, after you posted your little pissy message at minidisc.org when they didn't answer your question in TWO DAYS. People have lives, you know.

As for how I couldn't notice this problem, I've told you that every recording I've done has turned out great. The number of shows I've done with this device totals FOUR, and all of them were last year, it has remained in my closet since then, with the batteries out so no leakage issues. I have torrented every major recording (not the opening bands) and no one has reported any speed issues. These recordings include Local H in Feb 05 (video taper spliced my audio over his recording, reported no problems), Built to Spill in Oct 05 (alternate source exists that matches speed), Local H 2x in Nov 05. I have not used the device since then, nor have I sat on it or dropped it in the bathtub or anything like that.

I've wasted enough time on this...as I indicated here and posted at minidisc.org, I'm willing to help, but not if you're going to continue to be a complete asshole. I've done many great transactions and I provided the references to you pre-sale to verify, you can still do so now if you'd like since I don't have much of a rep here.

[twoheadedboy]

As for my name, it's a Neutral Milk Hotel song, but I wouldn't expect you to be enlightened to such a great band

[King Ghidora]

I started out being polite about this Chris.  But you doubted my word on everything I said.  I find it incredibly hard to believe that you didn't know about this problem before you sent me the MD.  Then you start acting like it can't possibly be true.  What proof do you want?  I showed you what the files look like on a timeline.  What better way is there to show the problem?  There isn't a better way.  The problem is you don't want to take my word for it.  

BTW you didn't respond on Minidisc.org until today.  That's several days since you stopped answering my emails.

I filed the complaint because, just like now, you doubted what I said.  I don't make mistakes Chris.  I understand these things very clearly.  I know what the problem is.  For you to question me and then deny my evidence is valid just proves to me that you don't want to believe me.  

There are only so many ways to show you what happens.  I gave you perfectly valid evidence.  If you can't understand it then you have the problem - not me.  Paypal only denied my claim because they don't guarantee anything but delivery.  They don't guarantee quality.  For you to imply it has something to do with my complaint not being valid is just more evidence that you don't want to believe me.

You tell me.  How do I show you the problem?  If you think I'm sending the MD back to you without you paying me back you are insane.  After you closed your Paypal account and you deny everything I say without one bit of evidence I would have to be totally stupid to trust you.  You won't believe it if it hits you right in the face.

I will send the MD to an independent person.  I'm talking someone who understands the issues.  Someone who doesn't know me and doesn't know you.  You should take my word for it but obviously you have no intention of doing that.  You don't want to have to give me my money back.  I trusted you but you don't trust me.  That stinks Chris.  I don't lie.  I gave you tons of character references but you aren't interested in checking those.  You don't want to do anything but keep my money.  I still think you knew all about the problem before you sent me the MD.  You wouldn't be so anxious to deny everything I say if you didn't know already that I'm right.

I don't lie Chris.  The fact you don't believe me just shows where you are coming from.  You want to keep my money despite the MD being defective.  You represented the MD as being like new.  It is defective Chris.  I showed you proof and you scoffed.  You belittle everything I say.  How do you expect me to take that?  What else do you want?  When you deny what I say is true you are saying you don't trust me.  What do I have to gain by saying this?  Why would I buy this from you then say it's defective?  I will send it to a third party to get it tested.  How can I be trying to screw you?  It doesn't make any sense that I'm trying to cheat you.

I will tell you once more what the problem is.  I look at the clock and I start a recording at 12 o'clock.  When the clock hits 1 o'clock the MD will say 56 minutes.  I can record with 3 other devices that I own.  They all match within 1/29th  of a second over an hour of recording.  This MD you sent me doesn't come close to matching.  

If you're so sure this MD correctly works just give me my money back and you can sell it elsewhere.  I don't know how you think you can come out bad on that.  I didn't just put up the money for this MD to borrow it for a while.  I intended to keep it.  But it is defective.

I can video the process.  I can get a witness.  I can send the MD to a neutral party.  I won't send it to you.  I can make this thing work but it will take a lot of hassle to adjust the time after every recording.  That shouldn't have to be the case.  I won't send it back to you knowing how you're acting here.  I have no reason to think I will get it back again.

[King Ghidora]

As for my name, it's a Neutral Milk Hotel song, but I wouldn't expect you to be enlightened to such a great band

You just can't help yourself from being a jerk can you?  I was listening to the stuff you claim to like when I was 6 years old when it was fresh.  I saw the great bands in their prime.  You'll never match that with these no name bands you record.  I saw Pink Floyd on the Animals tour.  I saw The Who when Moon was still alive.  I saw Yes 6 times in their prime.  I saw ZZ Top 7 times before they grew long beards.  I saw Jethro Tull during the Thick As A Brick tour.  I sat in the third row when I saw them again 4 years later.  The stage was on 3 sides of me.   I saw CSN.  I saw Harry Chapin.  I saw Steppenwolf.  Heck I even saw Wilson Pickett. 

So don't give me your crap about how great the bands are you seem to think are so great.  I was listening to Steppenwolf before Born To Be Wild was released.  I have an original In The Court Of The Crimson King album.  I saw the original Jesus Christ Superstar stage production.  These bands defined the music you listen to now.  I saw your list of bands you like on Myspace.  You are 40 years late listening to the stuff I grew up with.  I listened to album rock before there were album rock stations.  I was in on the beginning of rock.  You're just a johnny come lately who doesn't have any real bands from your era.  Heck I saw Elvis go into the army on tv.  Don't tell me about being "enlightened" about rock.  You're grandpa might know real rock.  You just know rock from the "echoes long ago".  And I bet you don't know where that quote comes from.  Heck I bet you can't even tell me the words to Monster.  You missed the boat pal  You were just born too late for rock music.

[twoheadedboy]

I started out being polite about this Chris.  But you doubted my word on everything I said.  I find it incredibly hard to believe that you didn't know about this problem before you sent me the MD.  Then you start acting like it can't possibly be true.  What proof do you want?  I showed you what the files look like on a timeline.  What better way is there to show the problem?  There isn't a better way.  The problem is you don't want to take my word for it.

Does a picture of a bloody knife prove murder? I don't want to take your word for it because of the way you have gone about things.

BTW you didn't respond on Minidisc.org until today.  That's several days since you stopped answering my emails.

I responded on Sunday, September 9 at 8:25am, which was right after I got your paypal dispute notice. Not sure what's wrong with your calendar or clock, but I can see it clearly on my screen. Want a screen capture?

I filed the complaint because, just like now, you doubted what I said.  I don't make mistakes Chris.  I understand these things very clearly.  I know what the problem is.  For you to question me and then deny my evidence is valid just proves to me that you don't want to believe me.

I doubted you because you threatened to report me to paypal on your first notification of the problem. I doubted you because you demanded a refund before sending the unit back to me. These are not the signs of trust and honesty from your part! No business or private seller would EVER accept those terms unless they were a complete moron, and ESPECIALLY not if they were threatening to sick paypal on you.

You tell me.  How do I show you the problem?  If you think I'm sending the MD back to you without you paying me back you are insane.  After you closed your Paypal account and you deny everything I say without one bit of evidence I would have to be totally stupid to trust you.  You won't believe it if it hits you right in the face.

I posted the perfect solution on minidisc.org - send it to an authorized Sony repair facility. If they find a problem, have them fix it, and I will reimburse you for the repair and shipment.

I will send the MD to an independent person.  I'm talking someone who understands the issues.  Someone who doesn't know me and doesn't know you.  You should take my word for it but obviously you have no intention of doing that.  You don't want to have to give me my money back.  I trusted you but you don't trust me.  That stinks Chris.  I don't lie.  I gave you tons of character references but you aren't interested in checking those.  You don't want to do anything but keep my money.  I still think you knew all about the problem before you sent me the MD.  You wouldn't be so anxious to deny everything I say if you didn't know already that I'm right.

What character references? Would you care re-sending the e-mail you sent me that included character references?

I don't lie Chris.  The fact you don't believe me just shows where you are coming from.  You want to keep my money despite the MD being defective.  You represented the MD as being like new.  It is defective Chris.  I showed you proof and you scoffed.  You belittle everything I say.  How do you expect me to take that?  What else do you want?  When you deny what I say is true you are saying you don't trust me.  What do I have to gain by saying this?  Why would I buy this from you then say it's defective?  I will send it to a third party to get it tested.  How can I be trying to screw you?  It doesn't make any sense that I'm trying to cheat you.

You have to gain a free, properly working MD recorder by me refunding your money before you send it back. That's pretty obvious.

I don't lie either. It's your word against mine.

I will tell you once more what the problem is.  I look at the clock and I start a recording at 12 o'clock.  When the clock hits 1 o'clock the MD will say 56 minutes.  I can record with 3 other devices that I own.  They all match within 1/29th  of a second over an hour of recording.  This MD you sent me doesn't come close to matching.

I'll say again...I have MULTIPLE recordings that prove otherwise. I'd be more than happy to upload them to you or anybody else.

I can video the process.  I can get a witness.  I can send the MD to a neutral party.  I won't send it to you.  I can make this thing work but it will take a lot of hassle to adjust the time after every recording.  That shouldn't have to be the case.  I won't send it back to you knowing how you're acting here.  I have no reason to think I will get it back again.

The only consideration you will get from me is if you send it in to a Sony authorized repair facility, and have the real invoice mailed to me. If they find a problem, I will pay for it and all shipping costs involved. If you are so sure of the problem and really intended to legitimately pay for and keep this item, you should have no problems doing this.

I've repeated myself and clogged up this board enough. Either send it to Sony authorized repair or STFU.

[twoheadedboy]

As for my name, it's a Neutral Milk Hotel song, but I wouldn't expect you to be enlightened to such a great band

You just can't help yourself from being a jerk can you?  I was listening to the stuff you claim to like when I was 6 years old when it was fresh.  I saw the great bands in their prime.  You'll never match that with these no name bands you record.  I saw Pink Floyd on the Animals tour.  I saw The Who when Moon was still alive.  I saw Yes 6 times in their prime.  I saw ZZ Top 7 times before they grew long beards.  I saw Jethro Tull during the Thick As A Brick tour.  I sat in the third row when I saw them again 4 years later.  The stage was on 3 sides of me.   I saw CSN.  I saw Harry Chapin.  I saw Steppenwolf.  Heck I even saw Wilson Pickett. 

So don't give me your crap about how great the bands are you seem to think are so great.  I was listening to Steppenwolf before Born To Be Wild was released.  I have an original In The Court Of The Crimson King album.  I saw the original Jesus Christ Superstar stage production.  These bands defined the music you listen to now.  I saw your list of bands you like on Myspace.  You are 40 years late listening to the stuff I grew up with.  I listened to album rock before there were album rock stations.  I was in on the beginning of rock.  You're just a johnny come lately who doesn't have any real bands from your era.  Heck I saw Elvis go into the army on tv.  Don't tell me about being "enlightened" about rock.  You're grandpa might know real rock.  You just know rock from the "echoes long ago".  And I bet you don't know where that quote comes from.  Heck I bet you can't even tell me the words to Monster.  You missed the boat pal  You were just born too late for rock music.

Wow, ok buddy.....

[twoheadedboy]

This guy isn't Walmart.  But I would have considered sending it back to let him check it before he stopped answering my emails and came on here talking about closing his Paypal account so they can't make this right.

No, you wouldn't have, because your first e-mail demanded that I refund your money, followed by you returning the unit. I thought you didn't lie?

I couldn't believe anyone would have not known how bad this MD is screwed up.  That's why I questioned him hard about it when I found out it was messed up.  Surely he knew about this.  I recorded with PCI and uploaded through the USB cable.  It isn't the software.  I checked that.  It's the recorder. 

You sent me a page of .jpg's for sound files I didn't possess. You gave me less than 18 hours to respond before you reported me to paypal.

He just jumped to the wacky conclusion that I was trying to get over on him.  I don't know why on earth he thinks that.  I sent him money not knowing if he would send me anything in return.  But he doesn't trust me.  That sucks.

Well, see above.

[Brian Skalinder]

Take it to PMs.  Thanks.