Topic: 4-ch mic configs - what do you use?

[stirinthesauce]

you could try running the roll off switch on the x/y pair. That always improved the quality of my 4 mic tapes. it does really help focus the bass on the omni pair.

I thought about that but in the end always defaulted to making changes in post.  I knew going in that experimentation is the key.  I just wish 3 nights of Panic was not the place to do that. 

Back to the discussion though.  I have had experiences like yours also, OFOTD where bass was overwhelming.  I've also found that xy doesn't cut the bass (at least not noticeable to my ears) but gives me a not too ideal (non realistic) soundstage,

Took the exact words right out of my mouth.  +T

plustee in twelve to you sir!

[OFOTD]

Well then if anyone has any suggestions on some sample configs to run I am all ears.  As my sig line states I have a full set of ck6x caps as well as 2 pairs of 480's.  Old Settlers is a great bluegrass festival and a GREAT place to experiment with taping.

The Healy method WILL be run.  Any other combinations anyone want to see run?

[SonicSound]

I have only been running 4-mic for the past 3 months (diffidently still experimenting).  I would say that I do like the results and would compare it to a focused NOS subcard recording.  I like the results I have had when using hypers (I am using mk41v > m222 which have a nice smooth off access response and warmth from the tubes) with onmi’s.  

On-stage/Stage lip: Split omni’s 3ft up to 15ft split Mixed with hyper dina, xy, or 70deg-2cm or figure-8 blumlein.  From my experience I have had the best results with 4ft split and using the hypers.

PA : Omni’s NOS or Blumlein mixed with hyper dina.  I am looking forward to the festivals this summer to try out some different configurations.  

[Gutbucket]

Do any of you running a center pair + split flanking mics ever move the center pair forward of the split pair (in a pseudo Decca tree config) or do you usually position all the mics in the same plane?

[OFOTD]

Do any of you running a center pair + split flanking mics ever move the center pair forward of the split pair (in a pseudo Decca tree config) or do you usually position all the mics in the same plane?

The front part of my center pair were/are only about 6" further forward than the split omnis if that helps.

[THE NIZ BIAAAAACH!]

I have been running 4 track for a while now and have found that most of the time 4 is better than two.

I have run a modified mid side with 2 cards at 180* and two subcards at 0*  TLG 10-31-06

4 X cards at the inside of the stacks and the outside.

cards at ortf subcards at the stack

cards dina, subcards split 6 feet to 12 ft

on stage cards flanking at 6 to 8 feet with subs in the center dina

My favorites have been the cards dina and split subcard tapes.  I have tryed runing a filter once, and would like to give it another go.  I would run the same config with two sets of mics and run a filter on both high pass on one set low pass on the other with a small cross over of frequencies. That way you could mix down the pairs in the same way that you eq.  A lot of people have said they are running ortf with splits, this makes no sense to me.  If you have a split pair, they will determine how wide your sound stage is, why not run the other pair at much tighter angles to dertime how focused your center and imageing is?

[mmmatt]

Nice thread guys.  most of the multi-pair mic stuff I have done was in addition to sbd to a multi rig, but I have played with the mics w/o the soundboard many times.  here are my suggestions fwiw.

Use at least one pair of omni's in the mix because they will be less prone to phase issues.

Don't diss the x/y as long as you are close to the source.  the advantage of the x/y is again the reduction of phase issues, and to my ears the image is awesome when on stage.  Although I've never run m/s or blumlien, I understand that this is also an advantage of these configs.

I did an entire 3 day festival with a pair of ld's x/y center stage, split omni's 100' back, 15' split at the foh, a pair of cards on the stage corners facing the audience (only had one pair of omni's unfortunately and used them for the splits), and a stereo sbd feed.  Most all the mixes were all 8 sources and I liked it a lot.  Alternatively, the foh omni's mixed well with any of the sources once the delay was dialed in.  Mixing too much of the stage sources however would drown out the vox so without the board it was a lot of omni but I like splits outdoors anyways.

The best 4 mic live mix I ever made however was indoor at a small venue.  I had ld's x/y on center stage (centered to instruments NOT the geographic center of the stage), and two omni's on the outside corners facing the audience.  I would do this again if I were to do a 4 mic live mix, and probably wouldn't try any other config unless the band had vocals.  In a multitrack configuration, I would do the split omni's from foh or wherever was convienient and then add delay in post.
     I ran heally one time FOB for MMW indoor as a 2chan and I hated it.  Crowd was too pronounced.  Applause nice and bright, and the music a bit muddy.  On stage however this might be a good way to keep the instruments up-front over the drum kit in a drum center type situation, so I always thought I would try it again.  I would be interested in how it works with a 4 mic mix, but my guess is it would be no big thrill.
   So for anyone trying this I will suggest you try the center config on stage (x/y, m/s, or blumlien) and omni's on the outside stage corners at the audience if it is an amplified, non-vocal band.  Or try a center stage pair mixed with splits from the rear/middle of the venue.  It is my understanding that putting mics right on the PA cabs and mixing that with another source is a good way to go, but I have yet to try that.  I bet that works wonderful when a band has vox and you can't get sbd access.

matt

[wbrisette]

Do any of you running a center pair + split flanking mics ever move the center pair forward of the split pair (in a pseudo Decca tree config) or do you usually position all the mics in the same plane?

I run same plane when I do this. There are a bunch of shows on archive that have been run in this config.


Wayne

[stirinthesauce]

Nice thread guys.  most of the multi-pair mic stuff I have done was in addition to sbd to a multi rig, but I have played with the mics w/o the soundboard many times.  here are my suggestions fwiw.

Use at least one pair of omni's in the mix because they will be less prone to phase issues.

Don't diss the x/y as long as you are close to the source.  the advantage of the x/y is again the reduction of phase issues, and to my ears the image is awesome when on stage.  Although I've never run m/s or blumlien, I understand that this is also an advantage of these configs.

I did an entire 3 day festival with a pair of ld's x/y center stage, split omni's 100' back, 15' split at the foh, a pair of cards on the stage corners facing the audience (only had one pair of omni's unfortunately and used them for the splits), and a stereo sbd feed.  Most all the mixes were all 8 sources and I liked it a lot.  Alternatively, the foh omni's mixed well with any of the sources once the delay was dialed in.  Mixing too much of the stage sources however would drown out the vox so without the board it was a lot of omni but I like splits outdoors anyways.

The best 4 mic live mix I ever made however was indoor at a small venue.  I had ld's x/y on center stage (centered to instruments NOT the geographic center of the stage), and two omni's on the outside corners facing the audience.  I would do this again if I were to do a 4 mic live mix, and probably wouldn't try any other config unless the band had vocals.  In a multitrack configuration, I would do the split omni's from foh or wherever was convienient and then add delay in post.
     I ran heally one time FOB for MMW indoor as a 2chan and I hated it.  Crowd was too pronounced.  Applause nice and bright, and the music a bit muddy.  On stage however this might be a good way to keep the instruments up-front over the drum kit in a drum center type situation, so I always thought I would try it again.  I would be interested in how it works with a 4 mic mix, but my guess is it would be no big thrill.
   So for anyone trying this I will suggest you try the center config on stage (x/y, m/s, or blumlien) and omni's on the outside stage corners at the audience if it is an amplified, non-vocal band.  Or try a center stage pair mixed with splits from the rear/middle of the venue.  It is my understanding that putting mics right on the PA cabs and mixing that with another source is a good way to go, but I have yet to try that.  I bet that works wonderful when a band has vox and you can't get sbd access.

matt

quick question about you running healy.  Where you using a true pressure transducer or a dual diaghramed mic (LD)?  I ask because I've read that this method only works with a pressure transducer.

I also have had mixed results, once in a club, the mix was just not what I wanted.  Once in very nice sounding theater style venue for panic, probably one of my top 5 pulls ever.  Oh, and once outdoors, great, hell fantastic results on the opener (Old Union, still havn't tracked it out yet) and NMAS as headliners that night.  The NMAS set was way to bass heavy, they had Chew way up in the mix and I used to much omni in the blend. 

[mmmatt]

quick question about you running healy.  Where you using a true pressure transducer or a dual diaghramed mic (LD)?  I ask because I've read that this method only works with a pressure transducer.

I also have had mixed results, once in a club, the mix was just not what I wanted.  Once in very nice sounding theater style venue for panic, probably one of my top 5 pulls ever.  Oh, and once outdoors, great, hell fantastic results on the opener (Old Union, still havn't tracked it out yet) and NMAS as headliners that night.  The NMAS set was way to bass heavy, they had Chew way up in the mix and I used to much omni in the blend. 

Well, the dual diaphragm omni's aren't supposed to work with a jdisk either but people throw their tl's on jdisks all the time and love it.  Either way though, I was running sp c4's, so it was a true omni.  We were even in front of the sweet-spot way FOB and you would think that would help, but it still sucked ass IMO.

. 

I have often thought that maybe the method is best for omni's that have limited high-end response so you can bump the highs without making the crowd sound wierd... I tried EQ on this recording and once I got the music where I liked it, the crowd was overly abrasive in the highs, so I never even tracked out the show (mmw sucks to track anyways!), the 393 source above me was pretty good so why bother.  Once I started running splits I never looked back though... I love split omni's either outdoors or on stage.  I just decieded if I ever do heally again it will be on a large stage, with a amplified band, with drum kit centered, where I can move up close to the kit.  In that case I wouldn't mind having the center of the image a little duller.  I'm sure some people like the heally, but it just isn't for me.  I like crisp sound, and in my limited experience, this doesn't deliver it.

matt

[boa]

I use DPA4061 omnis spread 36" with MG 21 hypers in the center. I run the hypers in either A/B, DINA or ORTF. I love the way these two sound together.

[mmmatt]

David (OFOTD) brought up a good point about my experience with healy method.  Maybe using it as part of a 4 (or 3) mic config would be OK.  I wonder a bit about the 1/2 out of phase healy mixed with a normal config, but I guess it is worth a try.  Omni's of course have minimal problems with phase so I guess we'll see if he runs it.  The question at hand however is if the image produced by healy is worthy of manipulating with additional mics.  I dug up the master on that mmw show so you can all decide for yourselves.  I found a chunk that had some stereo effects as well as some crowd response so you can hear the full gamut.  I wish I still had a copy of the 393 source for comparison.  It really was far better in all aspects IMO.  Either way attached is a sample.  This is per the pic above c4 omni healy > dmod ua5 > jb3 @16/44

Matt

[stirinthesauce]

David (OFOTD) brought up a good point about my experience with healy method.  Maybe using it as part of a 4 (or 3) mic config would be OK.  I wonder a bit about the 1/2 out of phase healy mixed with a normal config, but I guess it is worth a try.  Omni's of course have minimal problems with phase so I guess we'll see if he runs it.  The question at hand however is if the image produced by healy is worthy of manipulating with additional mics.  I dug up the master on that mmw show so you can all decide for yourselves.  I found a chunk that had some stereo effects as well as some crowd response so you can hear the full gamut.  I wish I still had a copy of the 393 source for comparison.  It really was far better in all aspects IMO.  Either way attached is a sample.  This is per the pic above c4 omni healy > dmod ua5 > jb3 @16/44

Matt

Thanks for the sample.  To me, sounded unfocused, definitly a situation for directional mics. 

Here is an example of mics healy (avenson audio sto-2), cards DIN (Peluso cemc6 ck4) last October 15 in Chattanooga for Panic.

Ran this config 4 times, twice came out fantastic, twice less than fantastic.  This is, IMO, a fantastic example of what this config can do.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4qekzorknqh

[mmmatt]

Thanks for the sample.  To me, sounded unfocused, definitly a situation for directional mics. 

Here is an example of mics healy (avenson audio sto-2), cards DIN (Peluso cemc6 ck4) last October 15 in Chattanooga for Panic.

Ran this config 4 times, twice came out fantastic, twice less than fantastic.  This is, IMO, a fantastic example of what this config can do.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4qekzorknqh

That sounds great Jon.  That was 4 mics then, or just the healy?


matt

[stirinthesauce]

Thanks for the sample.  To me, sounded unfocused, definitly a situation for directional mics. 

Here is an example of mics healy (avenson audio sto-2), cards DIN (Peluso cemc6 ck4) last October 15 in Chattanooga for Panic.

Ran this config 4 times, twice came out fantastic, twice less than fantastic.  This is, IMO, a fantastic example of what this config can do.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4qekzorknqh

That sounds great Jon.  That was 4 mics then, or just the healy?


matt

4 mics.  Peluso's into w+mod ua-5, avenson's>v3>rca in w+mod>jb3.  Kept the omni down in the mix, probaby peaked at -12 to -10db at the most.