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Author Topic: SD 722 external clock/sync  (Read 3420 times)

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Offline Todd R

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SD 722 external clock/sync
« on: March 15, 2007, 10:57:22 AM »
Well, it looks like I've got a new 4ch rig to use!!  ;D 8)

I recently got a 722, only had 2 opportunities to use it in the field so far.  I still need to make up a bunch of new cables for it to run it in all the different configurations I'd like.  So far I've been able to run mics>V3(analog)>722 and run SBD(analog)>722.

Last night I got around to making a spdif digi cable for it, so I did some testing of the external clock sync.  Looks like it worked great getting an external clock from the V3!

It's probably worth describing the process, since it wasn't intuitive to me and the procedure is a bit buried in the manual.  Info is found in the section on inputs, not in the section on word clock.

I synced the 722 using the AES3 unbalanced digital input on the 722, not the word clock in, and got the timing signal from the spdif digital out on the V3, not the word clock out (since my V3 has been opti-modded and doesn't have a WC out).

Here's what I did to test:
I ran Milab VM44>V3>iRiver h120 and then ran MSH-1O omnis into the mic/XLR inputs of the 722, with the 722 fed a spdif digital signal from the V3.  On the 722 menus, I selected Analog input, instead of Auto-select.  This forces the 722 to record off the analog inputs even though a digital signal is present on AES3.  The digital audio signal on the AES3 input is used to provide the external clock -- once hooked up, there was an "L" for lock on the LCD screen next to the bit depth and sample rate info.

I recorded my stereo with both rigs for an hour.  Got the files loaded into CoolEdit, found a good place to match up the files near the beginning, and then checked to see if they were in sync at various point throughout the files.  Both files matched up perfectly, right up to the end at just past 1 hour of record time!

So from the testing, it looks like the 722 should work great to get an external clock from a digital audio stream.  This should make it really easy to make 4ch mixes.  You need to do the initial time-align in post processing, but other than that, 4ch mixes should be almost as easy as with a 744 or R4.  I need to make up another cable, but I imagine the 722 can get the clock from the AES output of the V3 as easily as with the spdif out.  So the nice thing is that the 722 appears to be able to get a signal clock from any A/D or recorder that has an available spdif/AES digital output.

Of course, it sure would've been nice to get this cable made and testing done a week earlier so I could've synced my 722 to my V3 last Sunday for YMSB when I recorded VM44>v3 audience and SBD>722.  Day late and a dollar short I guess. ::)
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Todd R

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2007, 10:59:02 AM »
BTW, I thought I'd give this it's own thread, but there have been a number of relevant discussions on syncing.  Here are a few for reference:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76096.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,79567.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80192.0.html
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline fozzy

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2007, 11:27:59 AM »
hrm, so you are saying I could do something like this

SBD > UA5 > H120  (16/96)
Quote
(iriver w/ rockbox)* supports optical spdif recording (16-bit, up to 96kHz)
mics > 722 (24/96) or (16/96)

and sync the 722 via the UA5 coax output w/ a RCA > BNC coax cable ?

would dithering the 24/96 and 16/96 signal down to 16/44.1 take them out of sync?



MK 4V > KCY 250/5 Ig (KS 10I)  > VST62IUg > 722

Offline Todd R

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2007, 11:40:54 AM »
hrm, so you are saying I could do something like this

SBD > UA5 > H120  (16/96)
Quote
(iriver w/ rockbox)* supports optical spdif recording (16-bit, up to 96kHz)
mics > 722 (24/96) or (16/96)

and sync the 722 via the UA5 coax output w/ a RCA > BNC coax cable ?

would dithering the 24/96 and 16/96 signal down to 16/44.1 take them out of sync?


Yep, definitely can do the syncing that way.  24>16 dither won't be a problem, but you couldn't resample from 96>44 as this will take them out of sync. 

You've also listed 96k sampling on the H120 -- does the H120 do this?  I'd lean towards doing 44.1k or 48k sampling to do this 4ch syncing.

Also, you wouldn't have to dither the 24 to 16.  You could just add the 24bit file to the 16bit file of the h120 in post-processing and get a resulting 24bit file.

Edit:  Oops, just read the quote you put in more closely.  Looks like you could do 96k as your sample rate.  Makes me nervous pushing an mp3 player like the h120 this hard, but I guess it should be possible anyway.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 11:42:38 AM by Todd R »
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline fozzy

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2007, 11:48:44 AM »
hrm, so you are saying I could do something like this

SBD > UA5 > H120  (16/96)
Quote
(iriver w/ rockbox)* supports optical spdif recording (16-bit, up to 96kHz)
mics > 722 (24/96) or (16/96)

and sync the 722 via the UA5 coax output w/ a RCA > BNC coax cable ?

would dithering the 24/96 and 16/96 signal down to 16/44.1 take them out of sync?


Yep, definitely can do the syncing that way.  24>16 dither won't be a problem, but you couldn't resample from 96>44 as this will take them out of sync. 

You've also listed 96k sampling on the H120 -- does the H120 do this?  I'd lean towards doing 44.1k or 48k sampling to do this 4ch syncing.

Also, you wouldn't have to dither the 24 to 16.  You could just add the 24bit file to the 16bit file of the h120 in post-processing and get a resulting 24bit file.

so an acceptable workflow could be to

dither mics (24/96) to (16/96)
Create a montage w/ 2 16/96 stereo files in wavelab
mix/matrix in @ (16/96) > single stereo file
resample 16/96 > 16/44.1
CD

I would most likely be doing this @ 24/48 and 16/48.  I really wouldn't want the mic > 722 source to go below 24/48

I have been shying away from doing and sbd + mic matrixes b/c of the sync issues and labor involved getting them to match up.  This wouldn't be an every show thing but there are some opportunities i have that i would like to pull a matrix.


MK 4V > KCY 250/5 Ig (KS 10I)  > VST62IUg > 722

Offline Todd R

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2007, 11:54:01 AM »
As far as I understand it, yes.

Also, your workflow could be:
1) montage
2) mix matrix 16bit sbd + 24bit aud files (24bit version available to those who want it)
3) dither 24>16
4) resample 48>44.1 -- 16/44 CD version available
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2007, 12:12:58 PM »
4-ch w/ V3 (+digi recorder) and 722...  :drool:  I hope to get there one day...
Milab VM-44 Links > Fostex FR-2LE or
Naiant IPA (tinybox format) >
Roland R-05

Offline Todd R

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Re: SD 722 external clock/sync
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2007, 10:28:39 AM »
Well, I finally got a chance to try this in the field.  I recorded the Will Bernard Band at a local place in Denver last Thursday.  Did a soundboard + onstage mic mix.  Soundboard to 722 clocked by the V3, and then onstage Milab VM44-link > V3 > MT, all at 22/44.1k.

Both recordings (well, all 4 really since it was 2 sets) mixed together perfectly easily -- no clock drift to worry about.  Results were great, and definitely better than either source on its own.  Onstage had good guitar and drums, but the leslie cabinet for the B3 was tucked into the corner behind the B3, so the keys were very low in that mix.  The club is very small, so the soundboard had very little guitar in it.  The 4ch mix is very nice, though perhaps a tad to much drums since they were prominent in both the onstage recording and the sbd recording.  The sbd had pretty much no guitar, but the onstage recording had a decent amount of keys, just not enough, so I mixed the soundboard recording about 6db lower than the onstage recording in the mix.

Results of the mix are up at COtapers:
http://www.cotapers.org/torrents.php
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

 

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