Topic: AKG 414lxls ramblings

[MarkE]

Okay, so Ive had my 414xls' for a while now and it's my 1st pair of LD mics. Heres a few ramblings and observations of them.
     1st let me say that Ive always thought these are my "pinnacle of recording' mic setup. A friend of mine bought a pair for the Page plant shows when they had tapers seats, and i was amazed at the sound and "flavor" that was present in the sound. I bought my 1st setup a few years later, (Nak 300s), moved up to some MBHO's then took the plunge and got my AKG's. Ive had them for most of a year now and been in a few differnt circumstances with them. Heres some general observations. For other 414 owners am I consistant with you thoughts?

1) Since Ive had them, I havent run them shotgun or Omni. Anyone who has them , hows the shotgun pattern, I had some Nak 300s w/ Cp4's before, is it comparable? (a little bassy, a little thin sounding and the "cone" shotgun kinda sound?

2) In regular cardiod mode, ive taped them in small clubs and havent been very happy with the sound, Hard to explain, but not what I woulda thought. Kind of "blaring"sounding, maybe more exteded midrange frequency?

3) Blumlein? Incredible. Ive used it in a few small clubs (Double Door, House of Blues, Chicago area) and love the sound. The crowds get chatty, but the atmosphere created by the mics is only rivaled by being there. Very transparent.

4) With the sub/wide card they are GREAT!!! I tried running sub/wide card split last week in Nashville in some tinly little bar called "The Basement" and the tape smokes!!! I wasnt sure what to expect, and since I havent been as happy withthe card, I had the "it cant hurt attitude." Great results. And for outdoor recording? Ive taped 3 0r 4 shows with this setting and they absolutely KILL! I am a big fan of this. I'm not sure Id even think of running anything else.
 
So a question for any 414ers out there. What do you think of the card vs. the sub cards on these, have you had good luck with the card setting? And what else should I try with these. I want to run Shotun in Sept. at the local fest, I can set up far away and try it.

I did kinda miss that small condenser, cardiod , works well just about anywhere sound, so I broke down and bought a pair of Peluso CEMC-6 and these mics are GREAT for the cost. Thousand dollar sound for 600 bucks. So I ve been using them in "card situations"; es: Small clubs (Schubas,Beat Kitchen, in Chicago). and am very happy with them too..

Did I mention the sub cards outdoors? They sound real purty...
 
Mark E

[DSatz]

Mark, congratulations. Stereo recording with wide cardioids can be remarkably lovely--it can give you the advantages of omnidirectional (yummy spaciousness! yummy low frequency response!) and directional microphones (stable stereo imaging!) at the same time.

For some reason, though, some folks on this board do a strange thing more than I've ever seen it done anywhere else. Let me please say: "Shotgun" isn't a directional pattern--it's a way of constructing a microphone, with a directional capsule and a length of slotted tubing (known as an "interference tube") in front of it. The name comes from its appearance. I've defaced the attached photo to show what parts are where, since apparently a lot of people assume that the capsule is at the tip of the microphone (but no). The interference tube creates multiple, mutually interfering pathways for short-wavelength sound that arrives from the sides. Such sound will thus be canceled out to a degree that depends on its exact wavelength and angle of arrival. Shotgun microphones have ordinary directional response at low and mid frequencies (typically supercardioid), with irregular (but overall, narrower) directional response at higher frequencies. So it's a particular kind of thing, in other words--while the kind of thing you have (a very nice side-addressed, switchable-pattern microphone with no interference tube) is a different kind of thing.

Again please pardon my lecture/sermon, and again congratulations on the fun you're having with your new shotgun-free microphones.

--best regards

P.S. added after thinking for a moment: Actually the capsule may well be slightly farther forward than where I drew the arrow in the picture, since it still needs a rear sound inlet; the last few slots probably serve that purpose.

[MarkE]

Yeah, I was generalizing the terminology for the Super directional pattern of the mics.. The polar pattern is what I was refering to. I havent had an opportunity touse them that way yet, (but I will  ). Amazing withthis hobby that you can do it for 10 years and still learn something new everyday!!!
Thanks,
Mark E

[DSatz]

Mark, as an old codger I can guarantee you that recording will continue to offer you chances to keep learning for as long as you still have ears--even if your ears outlive your brain, as they often seem to have done in my case.

--best regards

P.S.: What angles/distances between microphones have you been using for your wide cardioid recordings? I've been using a pair of small-diaphragm wide cardioids spaced about 25 cm and angled about 110 degrees apart. This gives a slightly wider stereophonic recording angle than ORTF does. But I think the general tendency is to place "more omni" microphones nearer to the sound sources than a person would place "more directional" microphones--and when that happens, a wider pickup angle is needed, no?

P.P.S: You're entitled to some vicarious credit: Your 414 is a better microphone than any shotgun in one very important respect--its directional pattern is much more consistent in the upper midrange and at high frequencies, giving it a more natural-sounding pickup of off-axis sounds. Shotgun microphones as a class have rough, "touchy" (very angle-sensitive) frequency response off-axis. Most manufacturer's published polar response curves for shotgun microphones are carefully smoothed to play this effect down, plus they only show certain frequencies.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I've run 414xls a few times now.  I run with the portico +silk except for RRE which was directly into the 722.  In general the tapes are crisp.  I really want to try these up close for solo accoustic guitar or something like a grisman show or a bluegrass band that will let me run on stage.  I want to try them with the V3 next and a few more times right in to the 722.  I've been trying to use them in different venues and different patterns to get a feel for where they sound best to me.  If I can get a better bag layout and a hired mule, I want to run these in parallel with KM140/43>V3>MT rig and see how they compare.  I'm also planning to build a disc. 

I haven't really studied the recordings but here my thoughts after listening while tracking with grados and some casual playback on the big system. 

> medum size club, 50ft back, a bit off center, XY90 hypers - NRPS - very clean, not as much bass as I expected nor as full but definitely a solid recording.  Next time there I'll run subs split across the soundboard.

> large festival tent with open sides and back, ~22ft from stage, blumlein - the lovely kate gaffney - sounds good, very spacious but not the most full sound.  This recording was described as sounding "distant" by someone who also has a pair of 414s and a lot of experience with them.  The sound was better developed a few rows back but I couldn't move after the set started.

> large shed, FOB a few seats left of center sweet spot, cards ORTF- ratdog/ABB - a hollow sound for ratdog. Edit to add that the place had very few people when ratdog was playing and the venue sounded like a cavern until the ABB fans showed up.  For ABB a very nice sound, full and balanced across the range.  Sound was definitely better 5 seats over.

> small amphitheater - 60ft from stage, center, blumelein - RRE - very nice even sound, airy without being thin, a little chatter but not to the point of being distracting.  My first attempt with blumlein and I was pleased.

> medium-to-small field house, FOB sweet spot, NOS subcards - mule - really phat sound, huge bass that had to be tamed for playback on a car stereo but light up the house played through my sub, very happy with the result


(and edited for spelling)

[Nick's Picks]

I loved them running mid side, blumlein or XY cards/hypers
in fact, any coincident setup smokes w/them.

[easy jim]

I loved them running mid side, blumlein or XY cards/hypers
in fact, any coincident setup smokes w/them.

I agree completely.  I believe they truly shine when run coincident in general (m/s is my favorite), and would just add that split wide-card or NOS wide-card also sound amazing under the right conditions.

[dean]

Checking in as I'm going to pick up some 414 xls' in the next year or two.  Funny, too, MarkE, as my progression of mics will mirror yours:  Nak300 > MBHO > 414.  However, I'm not letting go of my HO's once I pick up the 414s.  I do a TON of on stage & stage lip recording, which is why I want those 414s.  I'll keep the HO's for a smaller profile on stack recording and for eventual multitracking (+ I think the HO's simply sound fantastic).

DSatz, as always, a boatload of great information.  Thanks and a +T every time I see a post of yours!

I was going to pick up 2 fig8 caps for the HO's but for the price I can get used 414 xls'.  The fig8 capability is the biggest draw for me for on stage recording in general, and one of the bands I on stage for in particular.  They're a 5 piece ensemble and sit in a horseshoe config with a laptop (percussion/drums/noise) at the top, a cellist and guitarist on the right, a sax and clarinetist on the left.  I have run Healy omni and baffled omni to record this ensemble to great effect (I don't mean to brag at all, but I've really pulled some nice noise and it's gotten plenty of radio play when the musicians have been featured on local radio!!!).  Given that, my plan is to run cross fig8's once I get the 414's together.

Anxious to hear any fig8 experiences with the 414's.

[Brian Skalinder]

Anxious to hear any fig8 experiences with the 414's.

Not much to say from my side other than it sounds simply stunning when it works out well, and worse than average to my ears when it doesn't.

[Nick's Picks]

http://www.archive.org/details/sts9-2004-04-21.flac

http://www.archive.org/details/dtb2004-11-20.flac16  **** especially this one****
blumlien action

[dean]

Anxious to hear any fig8 experiences with the 414's.

Not much to say from my side other than it sounds simply stunning when it works out well, and worse than average to my ears when it doesn't.

Yep, I'd imagine one would want ideal circumstances whenever running fig8, and particularly with cross fig8s.  I think I'm lucky enough to have those ideal circumstances with that on stage horseshoe setup I described.  It's hard for me to imagine any other setting with which I could get away with running cross fig 8s, or one that would openly allow me to record, anyway...  

check out my archive stuff.
particularly things done in 2004.  there are some good 414 blumlien shows in there.  medium club stuff.  FOB mostly.

 

I'm on it.  Thanks Nick!

edit to add:  for anyone who wants to listen, http://www.archive.org/details/sts9-2004-04-21.flac  provides a 1st set blumlein, a second set DIN cards.  Really nice comparison!

[Nick's Picks]

edited for direct links..

[kindms]

I have been running my XLS/st's for a while now. I was using 461's and still do from time to time.

Blumlein = favorite pattern. Although I haven't had an opportunity to run sub cards yet. I wanted to last weekend but felt it was too windy so I ran 3ft split omni from about 25ft from the stage. (http://www.archive.org/details/breakfast2007-08-26.AKG414.flac16) Heart thumping bass. perhaps a little too much but pretty much exactly like it sounded at the fest.

I have done m/s once. I liked it but was in a bad position to get good results. I just need more practice working with varying levels of the 2 different patterns.

Generally if i can I'll run blumlien, next would be x/y cards. I have been playing with the omni's more this summer but generally do to wind conditions etc.

Although with Blumlein I have noticed i will need a taller stand to use at festivals. The chatter can be an issue. if I was a 1-11/2 feet higher I think I would get less chatter.

Overall I am very happy with the mics. I just need to get a custom bar mount made. I have a long enough setup to do coincident with the small windscreens. the large ones i have took a little tweaking but I think a custom bar with 3 or 4, 5/8 drill holes so I can move mic postions based on the windscreens would be ideal

[dean]

Although with Blumlein I have noticed i will need a taller stand to use at festivals. The chatter can be an issue. if I was a 1-11/2 feet higher I think I would get less chatter.

I'm a big fan of getting my stand way up there whenever I can.  Never understood why folks don't generally do that.  Less crowd noise, certainly, but also, typically the PA is up there a bit, too.  I've found I've had better results than those around me on many occasions, simply due to stand height.  YMMV, naturally.  It always seemed like a no brainer to me, though.   

[Javier Cinakowski]

Although with Blumlein I have noticed i will need a taller stand to use at festivals. The chatter can be an issue. if I was a 1-11/2 feet higher I think I would get less chatter.

I'm a big fan of getting my stand way up there whenever I can.  Never understood why folks don't generally do that.  Less crowd noise, certainly, but also, typically the PA is up there a bit, too.  I've found I've had better results than those around me on many occasions, simply due to stand height.  YMMV, naturally.  It always seemed like a no brainer to me, though.   

Less crowd, but not better sound in my experience.  The PA might be up in the air, but it is not pointed that way.  It is pointed toward the crowd/middle of floor.  In a line-array system, if you have your mics up real high, you will be picking up sound that was intended for people way behind you.  I have found that the higher you put the stand , the more brittle and unnattural it sounds. 

[dean]

Although with Blumlein I have noticed i will need a taller stand to use at festivals. The chatter can be an issue. if I was a 1-11/2 feet higher I think I would get less chatter.

I'm a big fan of getting my stand way up there whenever I can.  Never understood why folks don't generally do that.  Less crowd noise, certainly, but also, typically the PA is up there a bit, too.  I've found I've had better results than those around me on many occasions, simply due to stand height.  YMMV, naturally.  It always seemed like a no brainer to me, though.   

Less crowd, but not better sound in my experience.  The PA might be up in the air, but it is not pointed that way.  It is pointed toward the crowd/middle of floor.  In a line-array system, if you have your mics up real high, you will be picking up sound that was intended for people way behind you.  I have found that the higher you put the stand , the more brittle and unnattural it sounds. 

This assumes most venues know how to set up a sound system.  Not the case at most venues I record at.

Also, I don't see what' wrong with picking up the sound intended for people behind you?  I haven't had the brittle, unnatural sound you talk about here (to my ears, of course), so I'm hoping you/others can expound on that a bit.  I guess what I'm trying to do is pick up the sound intended for those behind me, without the crowd noise of those behind me.  What's the pitfall there?

But again, the biggest point here is that most venues I'm recording in have haphazard setups of the sound system, and I've found that to be the case almost everywhere I go.

[MarkE]

Heres a few samples of a show I taped with the 414's in a Blumlein pattern. Its in mp3, butyou can get the idea.

http://www.dimeadozen.org/attachments/157997/1966226/Indiana%20Line.mp3

http://www.dimeadozen.org/attachments/157997/1966229/Baby%20Your%20On%20Your%20Own.mp3

http://www.dimeadozen.org/attachments/157997/1966230/Stop%20hangin%20around.mp3

By far my favorite pattern. The sub cards outside I like alot.

[Kevin Straker]

Anxious to hear any fig8 experiences with the 414's.

Not much to say from my side other than it sounds simply stunning when it works out well, and worse than average to my ears when it doesn't.

Didn't you record that Allison Krauss show last year with some 414's? (rockygrass i think). That one sounds incredible!

[junonato]

Blumlein at a late night bluegrass jam session/circle, WOW!