Topic: applause volume for quiet show

[nameloc01]

push DELETE.

[T.J.]

i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

You could apply to whole file, or only to specific areas.  You have to find the loudest musical peak manually, if the applause are louder than the music.  I just eyeball it, doesn't take long at all.

IME, hard limiting can deliver unpleasant results in some cases.  I far prefer lighter compression and / or a volume envelope, though both are a bit more effort.

i have an idea where the peak is in the music. i think i would want to perform either a hard limiter/light compression/volume envelope to the entire file b/c the clapping is during songs too. essentially what i would want to do (similar to the original poster) is bring down those peaks caused by clapping, then add some gain to "bring up" the levels of the music.

anyone use some specific plugins in wavelab to do this?

[easy jim]

i guess you would apply the hard limiter to the entire file? so you use the fastest attack and release setting to find the loudest musical peak? if not, how can you determine the loudest musical peak fairly easy (without listening the entire file and guesstimating)

You could apply to whole file, or only to specific areas.  You have to find the loudest musical peak manually, if the applause are louder than the music.  I just eyeball it, doesn't take long at all.

IME, hard limiting can deliver unpleasant results in some cases.  I far prefer lighter compression and / or a volume envelope, though both are a bit more effort.

Yeah...I find the loudest musical peak manually.  It's usually not too hard from looking at the waveform (zoom in vertically if necessary) after taking a look at the entire horizontal waveform on your screen.  I apply it to the whole file as a plug-in on the master fader/bus track when I do a bounce in Digital Performer.

I agree, Brian, that hard limiting can have unpleasant results if the settings are off or the plug-in/rack unit is too slow.  A couple that come to mind are (1) 'pumping' sounds -amplitude changes - when the attack/release 'grabs' or 'lets go' of the signal and (2) the mix sounds harsh and unmusical when the frequencies of an extremely loud peak are 'squashed' by the limiter and tend to dominate the frequencies you hear for that snapshot in time of the loud peak.  When hard limiting to try and bring applause peaks down in line with the musical peaks, a really fast attack/release can help with (1) and there's not much you can do about (2) without getting into audio 'repair' software like iZotope or SoundSoap or somthing like that.  If your applause peaks are so much louder than the music that (2) is a real problem, then an audio 'repair' program is probably going to be the best tool.

[ljsurfer2002]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 
Thanks in advance,

Sergio

In Adobe Audition I use hard limiting to lower the clapping portion of quiet shows.

1. highlight the section of ear splitting clapping.
2. Effects > Amplitude > Hard Limiting (Process)
3. put the limit somewhere low, something like the max the music gets to
4. hit 'ok' .. you're done!

[Dede2002]

I use CoolEdit Pro to master and use Hard Limiting to reduce peaks. Just highlight the bits that need lowering and then lower them to a level thats more reasonable (basically you limit the loudness of those peaks).

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 
Thanks in advance,

Sergio

In Adobe Audition I use hard limiting to lower the clapping portion of quiet shows.

1. highlight the section of ear splitting clapping.
2. Effects > Amplitude > Hard Limiting (Process)
3. put the limit somewhere low, something like the max the music gets to
4. hit 'ok' .. you're done!

Thanks 

[morst]

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 

George Yohng's W1 limiter is a very good hard limiter which works as a VST plugin on audacity. AND It's free! 
http://yohng.com/w1limit.html

[Dede2002]

Curious: is there a Hard Limiting feature on Audacity or Sound Studio? 

George Yohng's W1 limiter is a very good hard limiter which works as a VST plugin on audacity. AND It's free! 
http://yohng.com/w1limit.html

Great!
Thanks 

[boolz]

I'm going to piggyback/hijack/reinvigorate/whatever this discussion because I've got a similar issue, think I've found the solution in this thread, and would like some confirmation and/or redirection. Here's the deal:

I taped a Keb Mo show, and for the most part, the music and audience clapping is appropriately balanced. I set levels to the band and the only place it clips is on audience clapping. That is, on one particular guy clapping. He sat to my immediate right, was significantly taller than me, and was a very percussive clapper, clapping away 2 ft from my mic. Fortunately, for some reason he hardly clapped during the first hour of the show. Unfortunately, once he started, he hardly every stopped for the last hour and a half: random between songs, rhythmic during songs, all of it with much enthusiasm. 

I'm using Audacity and I've got slightly more experience using it than I do taping, but only slightly. Since it's only the one clapper clipping, I'm thinking I'll amplify the whole show within the dynamic range of the music, allowing the clipping. Then use compression to control him during the songs, especially the multiple ones where he was the only one in the entire auditoreum clapping along. Have I got the right idea? Frankly, I'd like to just not hear him at all during the quiet songs, but that isn't possible, is it?

(I did eventually try giving him dirty looks and wincing (silently, of course) and that helped a little. I intend to work more on those skills, but if there's a technical precaution to take in the future, I'd be interested in hearing about it. I'm using an R-09HR.)

[stevetoney]

Some clapping I can take, but when some red-lining brain dead idiot is standing next to my stuff and essentially ruining my sonic enjoyment of the show for the sake of his own pleasure over the course of an hour and a half (disregarding that he's f***ing up the recording) I have to say something.  However, I'm polite and offer up a win-win by asking politely if he'd move someplace else and in exchange I'll send him a free copy of the show at my expense.  Give him your email though...make the onus on him to get back in touch with you, not vice versa.  After all, he's the dumass.

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.  If I want to hear shitty playing, I'll record myself...why on earth would I EVER want to hear YOU instead of the band that I paid to hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Same thing with those f***ing laser pointers!!!  Once used TOILET PAPER has exactly the same amount of worth as an idiot with a laser pointer.

[stevetoney]

Ahh, what to do with the "pop" clappers. 

Screw software...I vote hiring Bubba to take them back to the woodshed!

[sml42]

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.

you're serious?!

I've never experienced that... that is outrageous! Pretty sure I'd say something, via the medium of a clenched fist... crazyness!

[stevetoney]

I feel the same way even if I'm not recording...people bringing their own instruments (harmonica's, drums, etc.) into a show is the WORST offense of anything.

you're serious?!

I've never experienced that... that is outrageous! Pretty sure I'd say something, via the medium of a clenched fist... crazyness!

Absolutely serious!  OK, the drum was only at a festival and I'm pretty sure the dude only brought it for 'between the sets' but even so...people felt the need to bang it because it was there!  Harp has happened two or three times in my experience...I guess cause it's easy to fit in the pocket.  I think generally that kinda stuff gets screened out at the gates, but you know...

[T.J.]

i wanted to post how i am handling the loud claps from a show i taped recently. to some this is probably common knowledge, but i think it can be very helpful to people less skilled with post production stuff. maybe someone can suggest an easier way to accomplish this.

background: i have an acoustic show that was recorded 24/48 in a great sounding venue. musically, the recording peaks around -10dB but the claps in b/w songs hit -2dB. i wanted to bring the overall volume of the music up and eliminate the claps in between songs. fwiw i am using wavelab 5.0. here's what i did:

opened the 24/48 files and toolbox control bar (took me a while to find: View > Contol Bars > Toolbox. there is a little pencil icon that allows you to manually modify the waveform. THIS HAS TO BE DONE WHEN ZOOMED INTO AT LEAST 1:8 RATIO). starting at the beginning of the file i found each clap that was over -10dB. once one is found, i keep the section of the file highlighed and zoom into 1:8. using the pencil tool youcan manually knock down those peaks to where you want them. if you want to do both channels at once simply hold shift before using the pencil tool. i made sure to just edit the loud clapping and LISTEN BACK to what i just did. even though the section i'm editing is less than a second, i can still introduce a click or pop if i'm not careful.

i've made it through about half the recording so far. that section now has a peak of -10dB. in the end i'll have edited A LOT of claps! when i'm finished i hope to eliminate all those claps, i'll add -10dB of gain and go about my post work like i normally would. it's very tedious work but once you get the hang of zooming in and using the pencil tool it gets pretty easy. i hope it pays off in the end

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

+T to this thread for the advise.

[Brian Skalinder]

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

Are the claps all louder than the music?  If so, I'd use a limiter or compression to knock the clap peaks down en masse, rather than manually editing each clap.

[T.J.]

i'd like to hear some feedback about what i'm doing and see if there are other optins to accomplish this.

Are the claps all louder than the music?  If so, I'd use a limiter or compression to knock the clap peaks down en masse, rather than manually editing each clap.

yes, the claps are louder than the music. the overall volume of the crowd in b/w songs isn't too bad. there is just one "clapper" who was right next to the mics that sticks out when listening back. occasionally the "clapper" causes peaks at the very end of a song. there pretty easy to find and minimize using the method described above.

to be honest i didn't think there would be as many when i began. i thought this was a simple way to get rid of the trouble spots without getting into compression and/or limiters. plus i am worried i may change something i don't want to using the limiter/compression. i have little to no knowledge on how to use both to eliminate the clapping.

question: would i apply either a limiter and/or compression to the whole file at once or just the sections b/w songs with the clapper? i guess i have to search the forums for some explanation on how to use both. i remember being a little overwhelmed when reading about threshholds/attack/release etc...