Topic: Running NOS close on the stacks? 4 mic mix...

[justink]

thinking of going NOS 90* (cards) in 7th row on the stack monday for DMB.
 
i'm also running omni's A-B (3 foot spaced) in the same seat. 

it'll look like this:

mc012 (card) (?NOS 90*, XY 90*, or A-B?) >>>>>\
                                                                         > Mixpad4 > D7
SP-bmc-3 (omni) (A-B spaced 3 feet)  > BatBox >>/
 
thoughts?

pics coming...
 
-j

[justink]

Pics!

[dmonterisi]

uhh, maybe a resize of those pics is in order?

[justink]

uhh, maybe a resize of those pics is in order?

DOH!  i'll try...

you can click the small link and "open" them that way too. 

[cgrooves]

Have you run your omnis split A-B before?  I know that 3' isn't considered a wide split, and that there is no chance of getting a 'hole in the middle' with a 3' split, but I was VERY surprised at how much bass was on my 1' A-B split omni source from a recent outdoor pull.  From what I've read / been told, the low frequency response increases with the distance between the omnis. I would have preferred to have run at about 3', but was glad I didn't after I transferred and played it back. That being said, do it. You will probably be pleased with the results and can always eq in post if necessary.

Don't have any knowledge / advise on the NOS setup in this mix.

[justink]

new, re-sized pics.   

the t-bar for the omni's is a square wooden dowel i picked up from home depot for $1.29.  i cut some notches in the ends that the omni caps fit perfectly/snugly.  i then put the dowel in a vice and drilled the holes for the sabrasom t-bar threads to go through.  the width of the dowel left me just enough room to screw on the shockmounts (look familiar dmonterisi?  ) with a small rubber o'ring between for fit and snugness when trying to position the mics.  then i spray painted the dowel flat black.  presto!  custom t-bar that cost me all of $3 tops!

dmonterisi; this is my first time taking out your old shockmounts!  i'm excited! 

-j

[justink]

Have you run your omnis split A-B before?  I know that 3' isn't considered a wide split, and that there is no chance of getting a 'hole in the middle' with a 3' split, but I was VERY surprised at how much bass was on my 1' A-B split omni source from a recent outdoor pull.  From what I've read / been told, the low frequency response increases with the distance between the omnis. I would have preferred to have run at about 3', but was glad I didn't after I transferred and played it back. That being said, do it. You will probably be pleased with the results and can always eq in post if necessary.

Don't have any knowledge / advise on the NOS setup in this mix.

i've never yet run split omni's...  only 10" or so;  but i figured from what i've read that 3' might be a good split.  what should i set the bassrolloff to?  as of now i have it on the second to highest setting... (i forget what really).

from what i understand (and i may be wrong) from what i've googled, NOS 90* is like the opposite of XY 90*.  instead of the caps making the 90* angle, the breach (back) end of the bodies creates the 90* angle... (caps pointed away from eachother).  is that right?

as i said before, i could just run the cards A-B or XY instead.

[Tim]

the best 4 mic mixes that I have heard involve the center cards or hypers run X/Y and then 3-4 foot spaced omni's..... running x/y gives you a nice stable center image and the omni's add to width and depth to the soundstage. I've never heard a nos/omni mix but I would be concerned about how that would image.

all imho of course and ymmv.... good luck!

[justink]

the best 4 mic mixes that I have heard involve the center cards or hypers run X/Y and then 3-4 foot spaced omni's..... running x/y gives you a nice stable center image and the omni's add to width and depth to the soundstage. I've never heard a nos/omni mix but I would be concerned about how that would image.

all imho of course and ymmv.... good luck!

i was sort of thinking the same thing...  i may to XY afterall.  should i rolloff the maximum amount on those omni's though?

-j

[justink]

the best 4 mic mixes that I have heard involve the center cards or hypers run X/Y and then 3-4 foot spaced omni's..... running x/y gives you a nice stable center image and the omni's add to width and depth to the soundstage. I've never heard a nos/omni mix but I would be concerned about how that would image.

all imho of course and ymmv.... good luck!

i was sort of thinking the same thing...  i may to XY afterall.  should i rolloff the maximum amount on those omni's though?

what about stand height?  i've got 17 feet to work with! 

-j

[Tim]

what are your rolloff options? whats your playback like? If I rolloff at all it's not much, but I like bass and have a system that can handle it

also it's been about 9 years since I saw DMB so I have no idea what their mix is like... better ask someone with more experience with that band, same thing for stand height.

do you know what kind of PA they run? If it's a line-array system then I wouldn't go too high... the mix will sound better closer to head height

[justink]

what are your rolloff options? whats your playback like? If I rolloff at all it's not much, but I like bass and have a system that can handle it

also it's been about 9 years since I saw DMB so I have no idea what their mix is like... better ask someone with more experience with that band, same thing for stand height.

do you know what kind of PA they run? If it's a line-array system then I wouldn't go too high... the mix will sound better closer to head height

hmmm what's line-array?

they're running the jbl's / meyer's from what i hear.  i think the meyer's are the GD's old system...  i may be wrong though.

[Tim]

At this point my recollection is a bit hazy as to the relationship between Meyer Sound and the GD... I believe Meyer  has some relationship with Don Pearson and Ultra Sound who designed the GD's system. I doubt DMB is using the same boxes as the GD, that would be an old PA!

A line-array is a type of PA system...

everything you ever wanted to know about line array PA systems...
http://www.meyersound.com/products/mseries/m3d/line_array_theory.htm

[dmonterisi]

do you know what kind of PA they run? If it's a line-array system then I wouldn't go too high... the mix will sound better closer to head height

and the screaming idiots will be much clearer at head height as well.

[Tim]

do you know what kind of PA they run? If it's a line-array system then I wouldn't go too high... the mix will sound better closer to head height

and the screaming idiots will be much clearer at head height as well.

good point

with omni's you may just want to jack that stand up...

[cgrooves]

I like the omni sound outdoors personally, but I do like to run the stand high with them due to crowd chatter.  As far as the cards go, maybe you should run x/y to help minimize the total bass response that you'll be capturing. You know, kind of compensate for the amount of bass that the 3' A-B omnis will likely be picking up.

[justink]

i believe they are the line-arrays then...

FOH Speakers
JBL 4889 Vertec Full Range
JBL 4880 Vertec Subs
Meyer MSL-4 Self Powered Loudspeakers
Meyer MSL-2A Loudspeakers
Meyer UM-1c
XTA dp226 Loudspeaker Controllers


x/y sounds like a winner then.  i'm very excited!  it's my only show of the summer unfortunately, i've been too busy w/ work!
i'm thinking 10'-13' or so...

[Tim]

As far as the cards go, maybe you should run x/y to help minimize the total bass response that you'll be capturing. You know, kind of compensate for the amount of bass that the 3' A-B omnis will likely be picking up.

excellent point. I had completely neglected that issue...

+T

[justink]

I like the omni sound outdoors personally, but I do like to run the stand high with them due to crowd chatter.  As far as the cards go, maybe you should run x/y to help minimize the total bass response that you'll be capturing. You know, kind of compensate for the amount of bass that the 3' A-B omnis will likely be picking up.

hmmm  ya'll got me debating on setting the rolloff to the highest freq...  right now i have it on 195Hz but the next and highest setting is 888Hz.  (16Hz, 69Hz, 95Hz, 107Hz, 160Hz, 195Hz, 888Hz)

i could always use the mixpad to roll some bass off too i guess.

-j

[admkrk]

the one time i ran splits, i didn't notice any extra bottom.  the opposite if anything.  i was 25' at stage lip, so that would be a difference there.

i'm bad w/ names, but isn't x/y 90%, coincident? sounds like a good array to me w/ the splits.

[Tim]

FWIW - I'd run at about 69hz, maybe 95hz

you would be losing a lot of music by going all the way up to 888hz...

do you know how steep the curve is? probably either 6db an octave or 12db an octave

[cgrooves]

I like the omni sound outdoors personally, but I do like to run the stand high with them due to crowd chatter.  As far as the cards go, maybe you should run x/y to help minimize the total bass response that you'll be capturing. You know, kind of compensate for the amount of bass that the 3' A-B omnis will likely be picking up.

hmmm  ya'll got me debating on setting the rolloff to the highest freq...  right now i have it on 195Hz but the next and highest setting is 888Hz.  (16Hz, 69Hz, 95Hz, 107Hz, 160Hz, 195Hz, 888Hz)

i could always use the mixpad to roll some bass off too i guess.

-j

On the bass roll-off issue:  Make sure you do the conversion to determine what the actual bass roll-off is for your particular recorder.  The bass roll-off figures listed on battery boxes that aren't custom built to your specs are designed around a 'generic line-in impedance of 10KOhm'.  I use the pcm-m1, which has a 47KOhm line-in resistance. Search the threads on bass roll-off, and you will find correlation charts for the m1 and jb3 (I believe the jb3 line-in resistance is in the 37Kohm range, but the info is listed in the threads I speak of). For instance, in my stealth signature: My battery box has only 2 roll-off options, 150hz & 32hz. I don't really like to use roll-off, so I use the lowest setting available (32hz). This correlates to an actual roll-off of only 6.8hz (i.e. 32/4.7). Most people are rolling off much less bass than they believe they are because they don't know that the boxes are designed around this 'generic line-in impedance of 10KOhm' and that a correlation to your recorder is required to be accurate. Just something to think about. I verified this with SP and with the person who built my custom box. It's a typical design standard that they use.

[Chad817]

do you know what kind of PA they run? If it's a line-array system then I wouldn't go too high... the mix will sound better closer to head height

and the screaming idiots will be much clearer at head height as well.

exactly what I was thinking.  Head height at dmb will do a great job capturing some 15 year old chick on her cell phone.  Then again, experimentation is fun.  At least you know there will likely be plenty of other tapers there so don't worry about coming away with a crappy tape.  Part of the fun of taping is trying different things, imo.  There's been more than a few times where I came away from a show thinking "damn, that's going to sound like shit" only to be pleasantly suprised on playback.

[Tim]

note that I didn't say to run AT head height, just that closer to head height will be better... the setup of the PA is just something to keep in mind, there are other factors to conisder