Author Topic: Distortion-Free Mics For Metal-Shows (Read 8944 times)

tod3sschu3tze · « **on:** October 05, 2006, 08:55:08 AM »

hi guys!
i had several discussions - even in the german minidiscforum - about what mic setup ist best for very loud and bass-intensive metal/hardcore/metalcore-shows.
i want to upgrade my current setup (core sound low cost binaurals w/ low sensivity option) and these ones are in discussion:

- MM-HLSC-1 or -2
- SP-CMC-8 (cardioid or hypercardioid) + SP-SPSB8 w/ bass-roll-off
(- CSB)

i'd like to have a nice and stealthy setup, the advantage of the MM's are, they do not need a battery box even at 138dB. the SP's need one to cope with such a loudness.
but some guys said, when i tape a concert which is not as loud as crazy metal shows (

) the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better. the reason is that the battery box enlarges the dynamic range of the SP's.
of course i would use them with my rockbox'ed iRiver.

so, i ask all the mic experts which of the mics is the better choice for my needs.
(perhaps some of you tape metal and can help, too)

thanks in advance!

Javier Cinakowski · « **Reply #1 on:** October 05, 2006, 10:53:06 AM »

"the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better."

I own both and im not so sure about that. I like the SP's better becasue they have a better bass response, but that could be a problem in a loud metal concert. The MM have an amazing smooth silky high end.

I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...

nardo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:33:32 AM »

Quote from: windorabug on October 05, 2006, 10:53:06 AM

I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...

Out of those listed above I would agree. The CMC-8s aren't the mics you want at extremely loud shows (maybe with a 3-wire box but definitely not with a standard 2-wire, like the ones from SoundPro's).

M · « **Reply #3 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:35:40 AM »

I also own both also and having to choose I would take the at853's over the Senns only if they were modded (4.7k resistor mod) or ran with a 3-wire power supply.

I find it is difficult to get a nice tape with omni's if your seat is not in the sweet spot.

If you do get the unmodded SP mics for taping loud metal shows then you can pretty much guarantee they will distort.

Edit to correct the name of the mod.

kfrinkle · « **Reply #4 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:44:28 AM »

I have issues with my cmc-8s at very bass heayy shows. Although a little birdie told me that by replacing the 9v in the battery box with a similar sized 12v, you can get a little better dynamic range and thus less overloading. I have not tried this, but I hope to on my next taping outing...

BayTaynt3d · « **Reply #5 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:52:03 AM »

If you go AT, you should go 3-wire or phantom for sure, otherwise you'll distort at super-high SPLs...

Javier Cinakowski · « **Reply #6 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:53:34 AM »

I had my 2-wire AT's modded with the 4.7k mod and the do not distort at all.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #7 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:54:26 AM »

Quote from: tod3sschu3tze on October 05, 2006, 08:55:08 AM

hi guys!
i had several discussions - even in the german minidiscforum - about what mic setup ist best for very loud and bass-intensive metal/hardcore/metalcore-shows.
i want to upgrade my current setup (core sound low cost binaurals w/ low sensivity option) and these ones are in discussion:

- MM-HLSC-1 or -2
- SP-CMC-8 (cardioid or hypercardioid) + SP-SPSB8 w/ bass-roll-off
(- CSB)

i'd like to have a nice and stealthy setup, the advantage of the MM's are, they do not need a battery box even at 138dB. the SP's need one to cope with such a loudness.
but some guys said, when i tape a concert which is not as loud as crazy metal shows ( ) the SP's are the better choice, because the simply sound better. the reason is that the battery box enlarges the dynamic range of the SP's.
of course i would use them with my rockbox'ed iRiver.

so, i ask all the mic experts which of the mics is the better choice for my needs.
(perhaps some of you tape metal and can help, too)

thanks in advance!

I have a new battery box that is $99.99 for three wire that has a special mod I do to the AT mics built in that reduces the THD by 2.5% and only decreases the output of the mics by .5 db if your interested let me know. This battery box combined with the AT mics will provide very good recordings at very high SPL this mod has a built in switch so it can be taken out of circuit. I also have a bass roll off option for an extra $10.00.

Church-Audio · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:55:24 AM »

Quote from: windorabug on October 05, 2006, 11:53:34 AM

I had my 2-wire AT's modded with the 4.7k mod and the do not distort at all.

My new mod is even better.

Javier Cinakowski · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2006, 11:59:50 AM »

every time I buy something from you, within a few months you design something better!!!

I am gonna start saving for your next invention.

T+ to Chris Church

Church-Audio · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2006, 12:01:45 PM »

Quote from: windorabug on October 05, 2006, 11:59:50 AM

every time I buy something from you, within a few months you design something better!!!

I am gonna start saving for your next invention.

T+ to Chris Church

Actually your new preamp has that mod built in

kfrinkle · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2006, 12:29:01 PM »

Hey Church, I might actually hit you up for that mod after the holidays. I am getting tired of my recordings getting all distorted. ACK! Would I have to send my CMC-8s to you (I assume so) and how big is the battery box you create?

Church-Audio · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2006, 12:57:42 PM »

Quote from: kfrinkle on October 05, 2006, 12:29:01 PM

Hey Church, I might actually hit you up for that mod after the holidays. I am getting tired of my recordings getting all distorted. ACK! Would I have to send my CMC-8s to you (I assume so) and how big is the battery box you create?

The battery box is 3.5 x 2.5 x 1 inch I can build it into a mint tin but to be honest its a little tacky, I like my box much better. I dont need the mics unless they are two wire then I need to solder on a pair of mini xlr connectors to them.

Chris Church

kfrinkle · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2006, 01:02:05 PM »

Yeah, mine are the stock cmc-8's, two wire that I use the SP battery box with.

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #14 on:** October 06, 2006, 10:55:12 AM »

Quote from: windorabug

I would buy the MM-HLSC-1's...

Quote from: nardo

Out of those listed above I would agree.

Quote from: orestesluna

If you do get the unmodded SP mics for taping loud metal shows then you can pretty much guarantee they will distort.

okay, i contacted microphone madness, too.
they recommended me that mics for my proposition, but they recommend the use with a filter/bbox.
is it a fallacy when i say i will get best results with on from microphone madness?
just want one with bass roll off and it should be SMALL.

Javier Cinakowski · « **Reply #15 on:** October 06, 2006, 11:13:37 AM »

Quote from: m0k3 on October 06, 2006, 10:56:55 AM

doesn't the music need to be distortion-free in order for the recording to be distortion-free?

haha, thats a great point.. that why I don't like metal!

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #16 on:** October 06, 2006, 02:00:26 PM »

well guys ... its not a discussion about music, but of how taping that metal music

soooo please answer my question

***EDIT***

i looked for several battery boxes at MM and SP.
what is the better choice in regard to "stealthability"?
"MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box" Battery / Filter Module with 7 position bass roll off" or "SP-SPSB-8 w/ bass roll off"?
the mint box looks small, but SP says "Extremely small and compact - the smallest long-life battery microphone power module available!", is that true

thanks!

nardo · « **Reply #17 on:** October 07, 2006, 04:28:59 PM »

Quote from: tod3sschu3tze on October 06, 2006, 02:00:26 PM

i looked for several battery boxes at MM and SP.
what is the better choice in regard to "stealthability"?
"MM-MBM Miniature "Mint Box" Battery / Filter Module with 7 position bass roll off" or "SP-SPSB-8 w/ bass roll off"?
the mint box looks small, but SP says "Extremely small and compact - the smallest long-life battery microphone power module available!", is that true

I would assume SP mean "the smallest" that they have. Both manufacturers list the dimensions of the bboxes at their site, that should help you decide on which one you want.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-SPSB-8
http://www.microphonemadness.com/products/mmmimbobafim.htm

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #18 on:** October 07, 2006, 04:58:34 PM »

oh yeah you are right, the mint box really seems to be the smallest "main-stream-box" available.
thanks

hyperplane · « **Reply #19 on:** October 07, 2006, 09:00:12 PM »

If you get the MM-HLSC-1 microphones, you will NOT need bass rolloff. I thought I would post that, as it's unnecessary and will save you $20.

Really, you can probably get away with running on plug-in power from the recorder, provided you have a recorder that gives plug-in power via the Line Input.

Also, just a thought here: even though you're looking for the "smallest" box, you might want to get a box that takes a normal 9V battery... reason being that normal 9V batteries are easier to find than the miniature 9V/12V/6V batteries, and the typical 9V battery will give 300 to 500 hours of power to the mics (a lot more time of powering the mics than the smaller batteries).

Just some things to think about, before making your purchase.

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #20 on:** October 08, 2006, 06:03:36 AM »

you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.

hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:

Quote

Hi Phil,

I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.

Hope this helps,
Mike

ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products

, but what do you think about his recommendation

Church-Audio · « **Reply #21 on:** October 08, 2006, 10:14:22 AM »

Quote from: tod3sschu3tze on October 08, 2006, 06:03:36 AM

you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.

hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:

Quote
Hi Phil,

I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.

Hope this helps,
Mike

ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products , but what do you think about his recommendation

Well if you are buying mics like the Sennhieser mics you dont need bass roll of because the bottom end is not there to begine with if you buy AT mics or my mics you need a bass roll off but if you buy mics with little bottom end then you will be fine. I would want all the bottom end I could get for concert recording but hey thats just me I would rather roll things off in post and just record a clean signal.

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #22 on:** October 08, 2006, 12:20:29 PM »

alright thanks

hyperplane · « **Reply #23 on:** October 08, 2006, 11:06:31 PM »

Quote from: tod3sschu3tze on October 08, 2006, 06:03:36 AM

you are right, of course it is easier to get the standard 9V batteries, they are cheaper, too.
the iriver has a plugin-power of roundabout 1,5V via line-in, as i know.

I thought the iriver provided 2.5V of plug-in power. I've recorded concerts with the MM-HLSC-1 mics running directly into an iriver, with fine results. A 9V battery box is fine, though, and will ensure you're getting all of the mics' sonic quality.

Quote

hm, i am a bit confused about your statement that the hlsc-1 do not need bass-roll-off.
mike from microphone madness said:

Quote
Hi Phil,

I would definitely recommend using a batter/filter module with bass roll off for this application. It will enble the microphones to handle higher sound pressure levels and clean up some of that unwanted bass content.

Hope this helps,
Mike

ok, of course he wants to sell mm's products , but what do you think about his recommendation

Simply put: you do NOT need bass rolloff with those mics (they use the MKE-40 capsule). I'm not sure why Mike suggested bass rolloff, except maybe he wants the extra $20 he charges for that feature on a battery box.

The MM-HLSC-1 mics (pseudo-Sennheiser MKE-40 mics) sound "warm" (which I like), and like DPA4061s, they can handle taping very close to the PA without distorting due to sound levels or bass.

If I were you, I'd only buy the mics themselves. (Also, I'd probably get the MM-HLSC-2 mics, as they are the same as the HLSC-1s, except without the mini-rotating clips... but I never use clips to mount mics.) Use them at an "unimportant" show, using the plug-in power on your iriver, and see how you like them. Then, if you feel you want a battery box, I would suggest either building your own (it's easy to build a basic battery box), or contacting someone like Chris Church (Church-Audio) because I believe he makes very affordable and very small 9V battery boxes.

tod3sschu3tze · « **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2006, 06:26:13 AM »

Quote from: hyperplane

I thought the iriver provided 2.5V of plug-in power. I've recorded concerts with the MM-HLSC-1 mics running directly into an iriver, with fine results. A 9V battery box is fine, though, and will ensure you're getting all of the mics' sonic quality.

yeah, i wasnt sure about the correct plug-in power, i think you are right.
yes, this is the only thing i expect from a battery box: getting all of the mics quality.

Quote from: hyperplane

Simply put: you do NOT need bass rolloff with those mics (they use the MKE-40 capsule). I'm not sure why Mike suggested bass rolloff, except maybe he wants the extra $20 he charges for that feature on a battery box.

ok, he "maybe" wants to make money, thats what i expected

Quote from: hyperplane

The MM-HLSC-1 mics (pseudo-Sennheiser MKE-40 mics) sound "warm" (which I like), and like DPA4061s, they can handle taping very close to the PA without distorting due to sound levels or bass.

great, this sounds like THE type of mics i am looking for!

Quote from: hyperplane

If I were you, I'd only buy the mics themselves. (Also, I'd probably get the MM-HLSC-2 mics, as they are the same as the HLSC-1s, except without the mini-rotating clips... but I never use clips to mount mics.) Use them at an "unimportant" show, using the plug-in power on your iriver, and see how you like them. Then, if you feel you want a battery box, I would suggest either building your own (it's easy to build a basic battery box), or contacting someone like Chris Church (Church-Audio) because I believe he makes very affordable and very small 9V battery boxes.

alright, you are more experienced than me, so i will follow your advice.
i mean, up to today i always plugged my low cost binaurals directly into the line-in and results were ok, except being right in front of the PA.
you say the HLSC-1 can handle that even without bbox, so i will only buy the mics first.
you are right, i can build or buy an cheaper box without bass roll off later.

but i like the mini-rotating clips of the HLSC-1

thank you!

jcrab66 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2006, 06:25:22 AM »

the at's are the best option if you choose to run phantom power

beefstew · « **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2006, 08:07:05 PM »

sorry to hijack the thread but
what type of mic would be better for recording a loud metal show
Omni, Cardoid, or Binaural?

also
i have the SP-CMC-19s and am looking to upgrade
i have a budget of about $200

[/hijack over]

kfrinkle · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2006, 08:35:08 PM »

I got my CMC-8s 3wire modded..... Metal shows, i am ready again.

Arni99 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 20, 2006, 10:50:35 AM »

i have both, the sennheiser mm-hlsc-2 and the sp-cmc-8.
they are both great mics!
i like the sennheiser´s sound more, i recorded a local band at my pub some days ago and the bass-drum is just so fat and "kicky" with the sennheisers, not as thin as the sp-cmc-8´ sound.
the senns can handle bass perfectly, it almost sounds like a soundboard recording!
no bass-roll-off needed with the senns!
arni

poorlyconditioned · « **Reply #29 on:** November 20, 2006, 03:19:21 PM »

You want a three-wire battery box, with either the Senn MKE40 or with the AT853. Both will sound great with the mod. Even if it does not appear to distort, you will see an impovement at moderate levels.

*I* think the Senns sound (a bit) better, but the AT have replaceable caps. Cardioids are fine for most things though.

Get either Church or Hyperplane to solder miniXLRs on and build you a 3-wire battery box.

Richard

2amuse · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2007, 09:21:35 PM »

Do you need a battery box to get his results? The specs show they they can be powered with just 1.5v. Ray

Church-Audio · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2007, 12:52:06 AM »

Quote from: 2amuse on February 02, 2007, 09:21:35 PM

Do you need a battery box to get his results? The specs show they they can be powered with just 1.5v. Ray

Bias voltage has little to do with distortion. Many people are rushing out to get 12 volt battery boxes thinking that they will end up with less distortion, the simple truth is no. There is a difference between 1.5 and 5 volts as far as distortion is concerned but after 5 volts it really does not change much the distortion percentage stays pretty much the same. So if you have a 9 volt battery box your good to go.