Topic: taping for idiots. meaning me.

[axlrose]

sorry about this, but ive read this and it makes no sense to me whatso ever.

i should probably then explain what im doing here. well obviously im here because i want to start taping/recording concerts that i go to because usually the only memory i have of the shows is a drunken and drugged blur. obviously anyone who has ever been to a concert would love to be able to relive that experience through the actual audio recording of the show.

recently, well as of today, ive come into a bit of money and plan to use this to purchase the equiment which will enable me to tape live concerts. unfortunately, i am completely and utterly clueless as to what i need and what i need to do. that thread i linked to above was basically gibberish to me. i know that i need a DAT recorder, but thats as far as my knowledge of taping concerts extends to.

now, i know its a tall order but i was hoping that someone would be kind enough to walk me through a step by step process of how i would and should go about getting the equiment. make sure you explain it in as simplistic terms as possible. imagine you were explaining it to a child

start from the very beginning if you can, where do i go to purchase the equiment, bear in mind im in ireland so any reference to american stores will go over my head even more so than the important information. from the money in my hand to the concert to being able to listen to the concert on my cd player a few days afterwards, can anyone help me? please?

[thoman8r]

i should probably then explain what im doing here. well obviously im here because i want to start taping/recording concerts that i go to because usually the only memory i have of the shows is a drunken and drugged blur.

Drunken/Drugged blur and taping usually don't mix.  Sad as it may sound you usually* have to be at least somewhat sober to get a decent recording of a show.

But having said that, allow me to flesh out a little of what Moke was saying.

You obviously need microphones, usually two so you get a stereo recording.  You then need to power those mics with something.  Sometimes this can be a separate unit but usually it's contained in the pre-amplifier, whose main job is to provide gain to the signal coming in from the microphones.  After this stage, an Analog to Digital converter is needed to convert the analog signal to a digital one that a digital recorder can understand.  Sometimes these "ADCs" or "ADs" are part of the pre-amp unit as well, sometimes they are their own unit, and sometimes you can use the one provided in your recorder, whether it be a DAT, MiniDisc, Hard Disk recorder (JB3, iRiver, Sound Devices 722), or laptop.  

The first thing we need to know to help you further is what your budget is.


* Now having said that I'm sure someone's going to chime in with an account of how they made the best tape ever and were so drunk/ripped they don't even remember being there.

[axlrose]

i know what im giving up to make sure i get a good recording of the show. its gonna be tough, but i want the memories of the show so i'll be on my best behaviour while taping.

budget isnt a concern really. i would obviously like to keep it as cheap as possible. can you give me a definative list of items and where i can get them at? and an apx. price?

[Nick's Picks]

ive got some good beginer pointers on www.nickspicks.com
goes over all the basics.  Lots of stuff "borrowed" from the oade's site and dpa....all in one convenient location!
enjoy!

[thoman8r]

i know what im giving up to make sure i get a good recording of the show. its gonna be tough, but i want the memories of the show so i'll be on my best behaviour while taping.

budget isnt a concern really. i would obviously like to keep it as cheap as possible. can you give me a definative list of items and where i can get them at? and an apx. price?

Well you can spend anywhere from $500 - $5000 or much much more.  There's way too many options for me to start listing them all, and what sounds good really depends on the individual.  You may be satisfied with a rig that you can get for < 1000 bucks, or maybe you need to spend three times that to get the sound you're looking for.  Search around the archives here, you'll get a good idea of what equipment is popular, and check out the links Moke and Nick posted above for even more information.

Dave

[Tim]

Drunken/Drugged blur and taping usually don't mix.  Sad as it may sound you usually* have to be at least somewhat sober to get a decent recording of a show.

 

you should come and tape with me sometime...

[axlrose]

right, ok. can you all draw me up a list of what i need for say... $750- $850? is it possible to get a resonably good deal for that?

[Chuck]

Are you thinking of taping in bars, or larger concerts?
If concerts... you should start by patching in to different rigs.

[thoman8r]

right, ok. can you all draw me up a list of what i need for say... $750- $850? is it possible to get a resonably good deal for that?

used D8 DAT recorder - $250
2 Oktava MC012 mics  - $100 used (look in the yard sale now)
Digi-mod UA-5 - ~$275 used (if you can find it) or a bit more new from www.oade.com
Various cables, stand - $150.

That'd be a pretty nice rig for starters.  Add a soundcard to digitally transfer the dat tapes to your pc for $99.

[creekfreak]

come on...drucken taping is fun!!!!

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Yes, before any real recommendations can be made, you have to tell us what you will want to do with your rig...  Different situations call for different solutions...

Also, do you want to mostly tape soundboard?  If so, you really only need a deck and some cables.  Do you want to mostly tape audience?  Then you'll have to get a full rig.

What kind of quality do you want?  Do you want to enjoy it later but aren't really concerned about Super-Duper quality???  But a Minidisc and a Sony stereo condensor mic...  Maybe $300 at the most...

Depending on the quality you want you can go from the cheap (crappy) minidiscs to the very pro and very expensive Sony TCD-D10II Pro Portable DAT...  You can buy mics in various sizes and qualities...  Radio Shack sells clip-on lapel mics (stealth style) for $24 each...  Or you can get a pair of Neumann's for several thousand...

And to tell you the truth, it is kind of hard to answer your question...  it is very ambiguous...  

I think your best bet would be to read that first post lots...  And keep referring back to it.  Lurk here for a couple of months, read the FAQs, ask questions, read other peoples questions, etc...

Also, figure out what you think you will tape most often and try to work around that...  I tape 90% of my stuff at a local bar where I have free access to the SBD and taping is very much allowed...  So I bought all my stuff with this in mind...  If you are going to be taping bands that don't allow taping, or you frequent a place that doesn't allow soundboard...  well, you have to take all these things into consideration...  I starting watching the guys that already tape at this bar and asked them questions...  I talked to every taper I could think of or find...

I did that for a month or so - hard core research and let me tell you, I was one dumb newbie at the beginning (still dumb, though not so new)...  Anyways, I eventually bought:  ADK A-51S LEs > Edirol UA5 (Oade) > Nomad 3.  My whole rig cost me about $1000 including all the details (stand, cables, bags, straps, batteries, etc...)  But with it, I can tape anything (except stealth).

Anyways, good luck...  You've made the correct decision coming here for answers!  I think you are well on your way!!!

Terry
db.etree.org/twatts

[axlrose]

yea, things are definately clear..er hahaha. anyway, yea i'll be taping in bars and clubs and smaller venues. not arenas or stadiums, well not yet anyway. so for the time being just take it that the biggest venue id be recording in is a hall, 500-800 person venue. the security is that tight, but they could well be dickheads if they wanted to be (but then thats the same with security at most venues).

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I tape a local bar LOTS (3 nights this week alone).  I have SBD access and AUD is no problem (albeit loud). I'm taping Bloodkin tonight...  

As a recording device I bought a Nomad Jukebox 3.  It was half the price of the typical Sony DAT Walkman and recorded 16/48 (or 16/44) wav files onto a 20 gig HD.  Optical input allows for digital recording.  I was just going to go SBD>RCA-1/8" Y-Cable>Nomad 3 for SBD recordings and I did this for a couple of shows...  But the internal AD (analog to digital) convertor sucked and gave me dropouts and such...

So I was going to buy an external one...  Well, a friend suggested I get an Edirol UA5 from the OADE Brothers (as opposed to one from EBAY or elsewhere).  He told me to get it from them - that they do the REQUIRED modification to get it to work in the field.  They also do other mods to the unit (and ONLY on units they sold to you - no outside stuff).  I ended up buying the unit because of its flexiblility:  it has Phantom Power and Pre-Amps for mics, it is a nice AD convertor, and it allows me to make matrix tapes "on the fly" (with mixed results) and it is portable (with radio shack battery pack).

Lastly, I was going to pick up some Oktavas or AKG 1000s or something "starter" (I just got a pre, gotta get mics now!), but after talking to several folks that have raved the ADK mics up, I went for those.  I was very lucky in that I found an old pair of ADK A-51s LEs (Type IV) for cheap on EBAY.  Those mics have now been superceded by the Type VI and now also by the Hamburg and Vienna mics - they were brans-new, but older models...  Lots of people like the ADK TLs because of the switchable patterns (changes the mics recording field).

Look around here on the Yard Sale, I think you can find "rig-parts" pretty quickly and inexpensinvely there...  OADE brothers also has a new message board wiht a used equipment board...

Good luck!

Terry


Good luck

[axlrose]

can i not just go into an electrical shop with a list of things and just tell the guy to get me the things on the list? hahaha, seriously i have no idea at all how the system of bootlegging begins.

[axlrose]

hahaha, why? what have i done wrong? honest, i didnt know!

[axlrose]

i thought it was the correct term. i got annoyed at the term being used to describe those people who mix two tracks together, like the christina aguleria/the strokes track.

anyway, i apologise. back to helping this poor clueless creature find a recording device suitable.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

can i not just go into an electrical shop with a list of things and just tell the guy to get me the things on the list? hahaha, seriously i have no idea at all how the system of bootlegging begins.

Bootleggers!?!  Why not just kick us in the balls...  I tape and trade for my own pleasure, NOT for PROFIT.  

Bootleggers are those that take intellectual information and then sell it as their own - it is sorta like "audio plagarism".

The music is the intellectual property of the artists.  To sell a recording you made of theirs and distribute against their policies and rules is bootlegging.

To listen and enjoy and freely spread to increase the fan base and artist appreciation is NOT bootlegging - its taping and trading.

You will notice that there is a good group of folks here that constantly patrol EBAY for bootleggers (they turn them in for their ILLEGAL activity).

If you want a one stop shop try SonicSense.com.  They be happy to sell you everything you need to start - literally EVERYTHING.

Terry

PS  Do yourself a favor and do some reading.  You will learn more fomr reading the posts here than from any one person telling you to go to this website and buy this piece.  You'll be better off for it, less likely to buy something you don't want or need, more likely to save money, less likely to get ripped off, more likely to get started quicker.

[axlrose]

i havent yet... and im slightly afraid too

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

+T, Axel...

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Check this out:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=12040

You can buy all this and all you need is a recorder...

Terry

[axlrose]

ok... sorry to be a pest again (but hey, im axl rose and thats what i live for), but i have no idea of what that all means. iis that a good deal? and what exactly do i need if i do buy all that stuff? just a DAT recorder?

[Brian]

sounds like you have to do a lot of reading.......once you know what products it takes to connect your mics to a mic pre-amp to an analog-to-digital converter to your recording device you can find out everything you need to know about said products.  every rig goes somehing like this

MICS~>mic cables~>PRE-AMP~>line cables~>ANALOG-TO-DIGITAL CONVERTER~>digital cable(coax or optical)~>recorder

although some people have devices that have a pre-amp and A/D converter all in one box so there chain looks like this ususally:

MICS~>mic cables~>Pre-amp/AD Converter~>digital cable(coax or optical)~>recorder

hope that helps clear some things up.......i hope. can't really explain it more simply than that. do the research, learn about the stuff, and good times recording will be in your future

Welcome to the crazy world of taping!

Brian

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

AT ES943_Cs - http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=SP-CMC-8&type=store  $259 New

Battery Box w/ Bass Roll-Off and Stereo Level Control - http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=SP-SPSB-7&type=store  $119 New

>>>These are stealth style mics (small, easy to hide), but will work for any application.  If you go to the link provided,, you an read all the details on the mics.  

The Battery Box blah blah blah is a little device that will power the mics (like phantom power).  Because of the type of mics, you don't need a pre-amp (I think), so you can plug the mics into the battery box into a recording device (like a DAT).<<<

TBar 24" - http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=SP-GNA-3&type=store $50 New

>>>This is a T-Bar.  It is a device used to hold the mics in position.  Obviously you want your hands free at shows (beer to hold, boobs to fondle, etc...)<<<

AT8415 Shockmount - http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=search&item=AT8415&type=store  $50 New

>>>Shockmount - does what the name says.  Mounts the mics for you, absorbs any shock from messing with the mic...

Custom Work to use tbar w/ shockmount:
http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=4386;start=msg41783#msg41783

>>>I have no idea what this is, but I guess you'll need it to use the shockmount on the t-bar.  Probably some kind of mounting thing to mount one to the other...<<<

You ask if this is all worth it, it depends on what you want to tape, what kind of quality you want, etc.  Depending on these factors, this rig may or may not be the right rig for you.

I would ask the person selling them questions such as:  what shows have you taped with this rig and how did they come out.  Ask him if he'll send you a copy or sample of the recording he made with the stuff.  Ask him why he is selling it (it may the same exact reason you don't buy it).

I cannot stress this enough,  RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH.  No matter how much we help you here, it all comes down to YOU.  If you do no research and go on what we tell you, you WILL be disappointed.  If you take all we tell you and add it to you're own learning, you'll be much happier and better for it...  And your tapes will sound awesome (the ultimate goal right???)

Learning about this stuff is part of the fun.  If all you want to do is record for instant pleasure, skip all this crap and go buy a minidisc and a Sony ECM mic.  There are boatloads on EBAY - they are pratically giving them away...

Terry

[axlrose]

you all gotta understand that i am possibly the laziest person in the world. when you all say "research", i mean seriously, the only thing i fear more than independant labour is being anally raped. im sorry for being so crass, but im a lazy bastard.

[greenone]

Then in all honesty, taping might not be for you - I'd classify taping as independent labor. No talking, no singing, not much dancing or socializing in general. Gotta get there early, leave late, carry all your shit around, etc. If you're recording bands that aren't taper-friendly, then no MOVING. It's no picnic...but to those of us that do it, the rewards are more than worth it.

[axlrose]

hahaha

ok. time to do some reading then!

[firmdragon]

yeah do your research.  the more you know the better off you are.  you don't wanna realize 3-4 months into your taping life that you want better mics that you could have bought the first time around.

contrary to what other have been saying for the stealth setup all you really need (bare minimum here) is  

stealth mics>battery box>recorder

if you can afford more buy more.

[zhianosatch]

spend a month lurking here and you'll know everything you need to start, and then some. laziness is for malcontents and time-wasters. and there's NO such thing as a lazy stealther.
armen

[Tim]

Drunken/Drugged blur and taping usually don't mix.  Sad as it may sound you usually* have to be at least somewhat sober to get a decent recording of a show.

 

you should come and tape with me sometime...

just an update...

I got butthouse wasted tonight... full tape, no sweat... it can be done  

[Sean Gallemore]

tim just likes to see how wasted he can get and stilll pull a tape, but he's been doing this for years so don't listen to him

[Tim]

tim just likes to see how wasted he can get and stilll pull a tape, but he's been doing this for years so don't listen to him

best advice... ever

[F.O.Bean]

tim just likes to see how wasted he can get and stilll pull a tape, but he's been doing this for years so don't listen to him

tim and i need to start taping together!!!

[Chuck]

Then in all honesty, taping might not be for you - I'd classify taping as independent labor. No talking, no singing, not much dancing or socializing in general. Gotta get there early, leave late, carry all your shit around, etc. If you're recording bands that aren't taper-friendly, then no MOVING. It's no picnic...but to those of us that do it, the rewards are more than worth it.

This is the best advice yet for you axelrose.
For the most part we all really dig the details of this stuff. The part that you would consider hard work. Like anything else, you have to put in the time to get it right. Do you think Micheal Jackson was good at child molesting in the beginning? No, he had to practice and get all the details down right. (Probably a bad example, because he probably knew what he was doing right from the start.) But you get the point.

[nickgregory]

tim just likes to see how wasted he can get and stilll pull a tape, but he's been doing this for years so don't listen to him

best advice... ever

I have to agree...you have to be a professional to pull this off...amateurs need not apply  

[pfife]

Then in all honesty, taping might not be for you - I'd classify taping as independent labor. No talking, no singing, not much dancing or socializing in general. Gotta get there early, leave late, carry all your shit around, etc. If you're recording bands that aren't taper-friendly, then no MOVING. It's no picnic...but to those of us that do it, the rewards are more than worth it.

Do you think Micheal Jackson was good at child molesting in the beginning? No, he had to practice and get all the details down right.

hahahahahahahahahaah  

[pfife]

drinking and stealthing don't mix...

that is, unless you want to record yourself pissing, or you want to stand there needing to piss for a while.
 

[BobW]

!/2 the fun of this hobby is trying stuff and then figuring out what buggers- up the recordings,
Start easy, work your way in deeper as you like.

My take ?
Get :
1)  nomad JB3
2) an inexpensive combo Pre-amp/Analogue to Digital converter.- like a Graham-Patten DMIC-20
3) whatever Mics suit your style and budget

Try stuff out a while and work on technique. Mediocre mics can make good recordings, if you know how to work them well.
Then buy more equipment as you get drawn deeper and deeper into the hobby. Soon you will quit your dayjob and buy a VW camper to follow festivals all around the countryside.

-Bob
P.S.- Be sure to trade recordings with those across the pond !

[George]

Like everyone else has said, you really gotta be into the idea of keeping still and quiet will taping, otherwise you'll be your worst enemy for getting a decent tape.  Just go research up on all the aspects of taping before spending any cash.  Best of luck.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I went to GuitarCenter today here in Raleigh to get some XLR>RCA cables...

Saw that they sold a package from Sony that included a Sony Minidisc recorder, a Sony Microphone, and a few other things that you need.  I didn't ask how much it was, but basically it is a "beginner's rig in a box" - probably the cheapest you can find...

Terry

[Jimna]

ive been taping for about 3 yrs now and i found when the experimenting becomes a full addiction you will be bummed out that you purchased lesser equipment in the end.  check out micsupply.com too

[ClevelandMike]

Are you thinking of taping in bars, or larger concerts?
If concerts... you should start by patching in to different rigs.

my guess is the taping scene in ireland isn't all that happening.

[busknuckle]

mics - these are (arguably) the most important part of the setup. They are the "ears" that hear the music. spend the most here.

pre-amp - this does 2 things: provides power for the mics, takes the signal that the mics are sending out, and boosts it to line level. line level is the best for recording

a/d (or analog/digital converter) - this is best done externally (apart from your recording device) it takes the analog signal and converts it to a digital signal

recording device (DAT/MD/PDA/CD burner/etc) this is where all your music is being stored. It's advisable to go with a recorder that has the following:

no compression of the incoming signal (md compresses)

Digital output capability (Sony portable DAT decks have this but you must use a special cable) most md decks (portable) do NOT have this. If you go the md route AND you desire to have pure digital transfers to cdr (preferable way to do it) you will need a home MD deck with digital output capabilities (coax/optical/toslink/all)

Once you have your recording, you probably want to put it to cdr. This should be done digitally and can be done a couple of ways:

- Get a standalone cd burner (phillips, otari, hhb) that has digital input which matches the output on your recording device
- Get a soundcard with digital input capability that matches the format used by your digital output machine.

That's enough for now....let's see how long you want to do this hobby now!

[Mobius]

Drunken/Drugged blur and taping usually don't mix.  Sad as it may sound you usually* have to be at least somewhat sober to get a decent recording of a show.


* Now having said that I'm sure someone's going to chime in with an account of how they made the best tape ever and were so drunk/ripped they don't even remember being there.

yup

I sometimes it works out you do a somewhat less than professional recording, but when you got a simple setup like myself, and youre stealthing, it takes the edge off and you enjoy it more

..though a little note, on one of my better sounding recordings you can hear me drop beer bottles into a pile at my feet in between songs (i had a friend bringing me a steady flow)

its the ONLY way to tape