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Author Topic: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?  (Read 7282 times)

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Offline macdaddy

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what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« on: December 05, 2004, 12:42:12 PM »
could someone please explain this to me?

i realize that most linestage mods doug has done are of the warm variety? but what is the difference between the two..?

the reason i ask is because i was always under the impression that warm mod ment just that, fuller, a bit heavy on the lower end, and not overly bright. i also thought transparent meant just that, and could tend to be a bit on the harsh or shrill side of things if not used with optimal equipment, as tmods add little/no coloration to the sound...

but as i have been browsing the boards, i see people saying that they are getting shrill esses and cymbals with the warm mod, and that the transparent mod eliminates these characteristics. and that just doesnt make sense to me (i wouls have thought the opposite)...

apparently, i am misinformed, and i would love to understand this stuff, so could somebody please explain the stuff i am missing...?

in advance, many thanks.

:: go chargers!! ::
-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2004, 12:50:20 PM »
i'm guessing you were referring to armen's comments a couple of days ago.   that actually surprised me too. I'd say it would be the microphones based upon my knowledge of the 406x series, but then again i've never heard the t-mod sbm1 so i can't really comment. i'd really like to know as well.  have you posted this on the oade board?  i'm sure Doug will have an answer.

Offline nickgregory

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2004, 12:55:19 PM »
I have only heard the t-mod with the 4022s, and what I heard was that the overly bloated bass that you got at a rock show was leveled out (as compared to warm mod sbm1) tapes.  Just seemed to be overall "cleaner" shounding than the w-mod unit. 

I am sure George Wang will poke his head in here....his is the only t-mod I have heard...

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2004, 12:57:01 PM »
one uses tpdf dithering and the other uses sbm dithering process

that's about all I know.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2004, 12:58:36 PM »
one uses tpdf dithering and the other uses sbm dithering process

well then it should most definitely sound better than the w-mod :P

bit-mapping sucks IMHO (ducks)

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2004, 12:58:43 PM »
here's a post from Doug

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?showmsg.mv+message=3259

Subject: Noise Shape/Dithering

Hello ! I get a lot of request for this info, so here goes ....

 SBM was the 1st noise shaping algorithm in public use. It was
praised by engineers and audiophiles alike for its ability to
increase the sense of spatial resolution in 16 bit recordings. Since
then UV22, IDR, NS and NN noise shaping algorithms have surfaced.
They are all different and all "non standard" (i.e. everyone uses
what they like, as it should be !)  and most are proprietary. I like
some of them, with UV22, SBM and IDR being my order of choice. Noise
shaping is level shifting the dither noise.  TDPF is noise added to
the signal, like all of the above, but it is linear noise or noise
of the same amplitude. Noise shaping reduces the noise at some
frequencies and increases it at others. This is the idea that Sony
first brought to market as SBM. It was touted by 'golden ears' as
the best thing going. This resulted in other companies using their
own proprietary noise shaping algorithms. I like TPDF best for
simple dither and UV22, IDR or SBM for noise shaping, with UV22
being my favorite as it shifts noise to 22 Khz, where I cannot hear
it. Waves IDR or Intelligent Dither Reduction is very good as well,
both are available as plug ins. Sony has not released SBM as a plug
in and I do not think they will. NS and NN use a strong noise spike
starting around 16 Khz that is easy to hear at high SPL, but sounds
very good at low listening levels or on smaller playback systems.

Peace...Doug
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2004, 01:03:16 PM »
one uses tpdf dithering and the other uses sbm dithering process

well then it should most definitely sound better than the w-mod :P

bit-mapping sucks IMHO (ducks)

Doug Oade disagrees ;D

http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?showmsg.mv+message=1493

Subject:      Re: Quality Stealth Rig
Date:     Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:12:12 -0800 (PST)
From:     Doug Oade <doug@oade.com>

Hey Now ! I want to take exception to the comment about the SBM-1.
Super Bit Mapped masters are widely acknowledged to be among the
best sounding releases available. This pioneering work by Sony was
"copied" by Apogee to develop their UV-22 ( very good indeed !) and
by Pacific Microsonics for the HDCD format ( again, excellent sound !).
All three of these technologies are used by golden ears to improve
the quality of their 16 bit recordings. The idea being to increase
the sense of resolution in 16 bit recordings. Many industry leaders
have come forward to praise the Super Bit Mapping algorithm as one
of the best, if not the best ( depends on who you ask !). This
technology, like 16 bit digital technology, is still in use today.
There is nothing outdated about these algorithms for 16 bit
applications, they are the state of the art for 16 bit PCM recordings .
 These "encoded" recordings ( HDCD, UV-22 and SBM )sound better because
they are "encoded" with > 16 bits of actual musical information, as
compared to 16 bits for standard 16 bit recordings.  Encoding data
overcomes the initial limitations of the 16-bit  format by using a
sophisticated system to encode the additional bits into the data
stream while remaining completely compatible with the existing CD/DAT
format. Digital "overbit" encoding provides more dynamic range, a
more focused 3-D soundstage, and extremely natural vocal and musical
realism, you get the body, depth and most important, the emotion of
the original performance at original performance playback levels.
 Yes, I can hear the coloration added to a recording by the SBM
process ( and EVERY OTHER piece of audio gear out there !), but I
can hear the improvements as well. The SBM-1 is a fine A/D converter
( hardly the best, but a very good one), although it does have noise
shaping, something a lot of folks do not like. The SBM-1's noise shaping
concentrates in the 3-4 Khz region, which is less offensive than
noise shaping that works above 10Khz, typically 15 Khz to 22Khz. This
second type of noise shaping, designed for classical and unamplified
music, causes severe problems when used to record music that is
played back at rock concert levels. The high end noise is so audible
at rock concert levels as to create an odd form of distortion, that
seems to trash transients to the point they "spit" or "crack". These
noise shaping systems were developed by design teams that listen to
music at less than rock concert levels, so you can understand why the
HF boost( < 22Khz )noise shaping techniques sound bad when processed
or played at rock concert levels ( some provide TPDF for loud music ).
Apogee UV-22 adds noise above 22Khz, much like the bias signal on analog
tape recorders, this does not adversely affect the signal.
 If you want to digitally process this type of recording after the
fact on a computer, for example, and try to EQ the high end up,  the
problem gets worse ( unless you record classical, bluegrass, jazz or
other unamplified music, which I do and love).  This is because you are
increasing the level of 15 Khz noise added to the signal to mask the
effects of word length reduction and quantization errors.  I do not know
about you, but my rock recordings sound best when played LOUD ! There is
simply too much dynamic range to listen to them at low SPL. I want
peaks of 105 to 115 at my listening postion, depending on the
recording. I want the power of the emotional experience of live music
at realistic levels  ( I do not say "what " all the time either, I
save my ears for the good stuff, otherwise I use earplugs !)
  When you look at the SBM-1, you will note an A/D converter with a
6.144 MHz 24 bit capable DSP chip. It has so much power, it can
handle 4 24 bit data streams and can output 24 bit 96 Khz data rates ! A
few upgrades to the power supply, replace some older IC chips a few
chip capacitors and you have an amazing,  SMALL state of the art
A/D converter. Give up  the battery compartment and it can power
your mics. The list goes on, I like the SBM-1.

  Peace...Doug

BTW, If you are interested, go to the manufacturers sites for detailed
explanations of these three different, but effective techniques to
enhance the resolution of 16 bit recordings.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2004, 05:56:13 PM »
well....everybody has their opinons ;)  doug has some darn good ones.  However, Tim, those posts are well over 3 years old and i'm willing to bet Doug has some differing opinions these days.  Maybe he doesn't. I'm just going by the info i'm getting about this tmod SBM1 which does not even utilize SBM technology anymore?  It's the Sony-Oade A/D now? ;D  I'd really like to hear it.  Still looking for a solid and small stealthable A/D.  was thinking about getting back an orig modSBM1 which is the w-mod i take it.  Looks as if I'd like the t-mod much better

here are some interesting links about sigma delta converters both a>d and d>a. 

http://ispg.ucsd.edu/~galton/publications/j_tcasii_11_97_1.pdf <<< very scientific so it's kind of a pain to get through.   i had to read it a few times myself.

http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf <<< An AES publication on why 1-bit Sigma-Delta converters are unsuitable for high quality audio.

http://audio.rightmark.org/lukin/dither/dither.htm <<< a nice test done by Alexey Lukin in which he compares different bit reduction systems. excellent graphs provided.

:)
« Last Edit: December 05, 2004, 05:57:52 PM by S_TL-Taper »

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2004, 06:27:26 PM »
why not email him and find out? I don't know why his opinion would change all that dramatically. Can you think of any other 20bit a/d dithering schemes that have come out in the last 3 years that are better? It's probable that he'll pick ANSR and maybe UV222HR over SBM now but that's 20bit apples v. 24bit oranges.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2004, 06:32:07 PM »
why run a 20-bit dithering scheme when you can run a 24bit dithering scheme?  the only answer is "because it sounds better to me." i can't give that same answer......especially after reading about it all and hearing different systems.  once again......my opinion only.

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2004, 06:36:48 PM »
why run a 20-bit dithering scheme when you can run a 24bit dithering scheme? 

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about 20bit dithering and what the best 20bit dithering scheme is. Can you think of new 20bit dithering schemes that are better?

Whether to run 20 or 24 and which we think is better is a seperate discussion. On that note though, too bad you never got to run V2/m18/psp2/sonosax/m248->ad1000. Still my favorite combo. I'd love to know what you would pick in a blind dat comparison between the v2/ad1000 and the V3.
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2004, 06:41:31 PM »
good point, i went off on a sigma delta converter tangent :P  i suppose sbm is the best 20bit dithering scheme then.  however what does that say when doug switches out the sbm chip in the sony for a different system and calls it a modification?

and there's now doubt i'd much rather like v2>ad1000 or any grace pre>apogee a/d combo.  that's just too much gear and batteries to lug around. I also like the tightness and "un-boomy like" like qualities of the v3 though.

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2004, 06:53:14 PM »
ad1000 was not boomy but I agree, I wouldn't go near one now. I was just refuting this statement

Quote
why run a 20-bit dithering scheme when you can run a 24bit dithering scheme?  the only answer is "because it sounds better to me." i can't give that same answer

I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2004, 07:09:48 PM »
well then i refute my own statement about the sbm1 being hte best 20 bit.  i'd say the ad1000 is amuch better sounding a/d. i didn't know it was a 20bit model

however my purposes are beginning to stem beyond simple 2-channel 16 bit recording.  I'd much rather have as true to 24bit a/d converter as i could.    i guess that means my time in this thread is done as well :P ;D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2004, 07:11:50 PM by S_TL-Taper »

Offline zhianosatch

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2004, 07:26:26 PM »
i'm guessing you were referring to armen's comments a couple of days ago.   that actually surprised me too. I'd say it would be the microphones based upon my knowledge of the 406x series, but then again i've never heard the t-mod sbm1 so i can't really comment.

after talking to alex, part of the problem (which i am exaggerating) might be the HPF i'm using in the modded MPS...
but i know what i hear and i never heard mid-highs in my tapes as emphasized as i do with the modsbm. i'm starting to think that my problem is a combination of both the bass filter and the modsbm.
then again, the problem is only a problem at great-sounding shows, like the scorpions and the monterey bay reggaefest.
god, i'm getting so picky. i'm gonna shoot myself when i get into playback gear in the future.

edit: my "playback systems:"

Waveterminal 2496 > Denon AVR-1603 > B&W DM302s or Sony MDR-7506s

a little after christmas, i'll try the tapes on:

Rotel something or other > bi-wired Linn Keilidhs (my pop's home system)
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 08:33:05 AM by m0k3 »

Offline Brian

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2004, 07:53:24 PM »
that makes a lot of sense armen.  you are using the hpf to get rid of all that nasty and prevelant boomyness that's so loud at rock shows.  however because of the hpf you need to turn your overall levels up and the modsbm1 might be tweaking those high mids to the point of unpleasantness to your ears.  so i guess you could say it's your mikes + hpf + modsbm1 making that sound

Offline zhianosatch

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2004, 08:01:05 PM »
that makes a lot of sense armen.  you are using the hpf to get rid of all that nasty and prevelant boomyness that's so loud at rock shows.  however because of the hpf you need to turn your overall levels up and the modsbm1 might be tweaking those high mids to the point of unpleasantness to your ears.  so i guess you could say it's your mikes + hpf + modsbm1 making that sound

fuckin' a. i think you're right. the tapes sound like you are, anyway!
in order of contribution to the shrillness, from my experience and ears i'd rank my gear this-a-ways:

[1] HPF in MPS
[a close 2] modSBM-1
[a distant 3] DPA 4061s

whatchy'all think?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2004, 08:05:17 PM by zhianosatch »

Offline nickgregory

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2004, 08:14:40 PM »
I would agree Armen, but I would also say, based on my use of the Mod SBM1 with my MGs at the louder, bassy rock shows, I would get those esses....to fix them I backed off the levels a bit, got lower levels, but none of that shrill extension type stuff

Offline zhianosatch

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2004, 08:18:38 PM »
very interesting. i've conditioned myself to push my levels to the brink, but maybe i'll try cooling them a bit next time around. i just hope i get to see another show that sounds as awesome as the scorpions did soon...

Offline macdaddy

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2004, 08:35:39 PM »
 thanks for all the responses - i appreciate the input ;)

I would agree Armen, but I would also say, based on my use of the Mod SBM1 with my MGs at the louder, bassy rock shows, I would get those esses....to fix them I backed off the levels a bit, got lower levels, but none of that shrill extension type stuff

agreed - and that is what i do, and is the reason that i run my sh*t not nearly as hot as most folks with the sbm1 - that makes sense to me. i dont know how to explain it correctly, but intuitively i know the extra headroom helps..

i am curious what georege w might have to say on the matter...
-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

Offline suntzu420

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2004, 01:36:05 AM »
Mike Stillman had a pair of 4061's that had the standard battery box with.  I'm fairly certain it was from DPA.  At some point he decided that most of the problems he was having with his tapes were from the battery box that he was using.  He sent his mics to Zach payne and had him create a custom battery box.  Frist show taped with the new DPA's was QOTSA 2002-09-12.  I love that tape and think it sounds great.  Now, i can't attest to the noise shaping issue with running an SBM-1 in the equation, as Mike hated the SBM-1.  Also note, that the new Battery box he is running with them roll at 85hz.  If you guys want some clips of before/after new battery box issues, please let me know and I'll try and dig some up.

Benjamin
Nakamichi CM-300/CP-1 > Sonosax SX-M2 > ?

Offline zhianosatch

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2004, 09:14:24 AM »
for the record, i am NOT using hebs! i'm using a DPA MPS-6010 with a switchable HPF of -6 db/octave, knee at 85 Hz.

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2004, 09:42:33 AM »
I would agree Armen, but I would also say, based on my use of the Mod SBM1 with my MGs at the louder, bassy rock shows, I would get those esses....to fix them I backed off the levels a bit, got lower levels, but none of that shrill extension type stuff

that's what I noticed. backing the levels off a bit seemed to take care of that.

Offline Tim

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2004, 12:19:44 PM »
for the record, i am NOT using hebs!

whatever man, you fluff Len all the time.

;)
I’ve had a few weird experiences and a few close brushes with total weirdness of one sort or another, but nothing that’s really freaked me out or made me feel too awful about it. - Jerry Garcia

Offline jk labs

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2004, 12:45:16 PM »

after talking to *AlexC, part of the problem (which i am exaggerating) might be the HPF i'm using in the modded MPS...
but i know what i hear and i never heard mid-highs in my tapes as emphasized as i do with the modsbm. i'm starting to think that my problem is a combination of both the bass filter and the modsbm.
then again, the problem is only a problem at great-sounding shows, like the scorpions and the monterey bay reggaefest.
god, i'm getting so picky. i'm gonna shoot myself when i get into playback gear in the future.

Ok, I'll bite. What are those arguments beyond the phsyco-acoustic effects? Because it's fully possible to find well-founded arguments in support of just the opposite: Removing some of the low frequency energy leaves the system more robust wrt to taking good care of the higher frequencies. The upshot is less strain on power supplies, reduced loss in signal caps, less intermodulation distortion, less harmonics added etc ..   At least if you leave the gain untouched  ;D 

Jon



*Edit by Moke, to remove member name, by request
« Last Edit: April 25, 2006, 04:37:43 PM by m0k3 »

marc0789

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2004, 02:32:03 PM »
why not email him and find out? I don't know why his opinion would change all that dramatically. Can you think of any other 20bit a/d dithering schemes that have come out in the last 3 years that are better? It's probable that he'll pick ANSR and maybe UV222HR over SBM now but that's 20bit apples v. 24bit oranges.

I don't think his opinion has changed. funny, apogee, in a typically high class move, cracks on the sbm process in its manual, although my understanding is that the uv22 process is not that different.

Offline gewwang

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2004, 05:16:06 PM »
After running the t-mod sbm for the past 3 months, I think the only conclusion I can make is that it has made better tapes in similar situations than the ones made with a p-mod sbm over the two years prior. For some reason the 4022>sx-m2>pmod sbm tapes were always too heavy on the low end and I found that I preferred the 4022>sx-m2>d100 over them (which I only ran when the patdown/wand process appeared tougher than normal). I never really understood why I preferred the tapes I made w/o the modsbm until Doug explained to me in an email what the p-mod was doing. (In fact, I didn't even know there were more than one line stage mod until I got his email). I think it'd be interesting to run 4022>sx-m2>wmod and 4022>sx-m2>tmod and see if there's that much of a difference. I bet the difference would be pretty big but it's hard to say until I actually try.

Offline macdaddy

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Re: what is the difference btwn the Oade t-mod and warm-mod SBM-1..?
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2004, 05:27:40 PM »
p-mod? what the hell is that..?

you dont still have that email do you..?

i thought all of these line-stage mods were the warm mod (except your recent t-mod)...
-macdaddy ++

akg c422 > s42 > lunatec v2 > ad2k+ > roland r-44

 

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