Topic: SBD > XLR > UA-5 (stoopid question)

[KLowe]

Do I need to have the phantom power on when plugged into an XLR sbd?  My intuition says No....but I'm still really new at this and afraid to mess with the buttons while taping.  Does it make a difference?

-make fun of question now.....

thanks for any help.

[bagtagsell]

nope

[bluegrass_brad]

Good idea to make sure it is not on, as some boards dont like having 48v sent into one of their matrix outs.

[fozzy]

Good idea to make sure it is not on, as some boards dont like having 48v sent into one of their matrix outs.

yea phantom ON sounds like a good way to screw up the SBD

[bluegrass_brad]

Good idea to make sure it is not on, as some boards dont like having 48v sent into one of their matrix outs.

yea phantom ON sounds like a good way to screw up the SBD

Some boards it doesnt matter, but some it does.

[hexyjones]

Phantom power is strictly for powering your microphones...

In your case - you are not running any mics...just taking the feed from the board (their mics) - no need for phantom...

And as others have noted - it can damage the sending soundboard...so make sure its off...

Question for UA5 users:

Can you send a line level signal to those front XLR inputs, or are they just for microphones?

[dklein]

Question for UA5 users:

Can you send a line level signal to those front XLR inputs, or are they just for microphones?

They can handle some line level outputs.  One time I was taping from a huge 24 track board, taking a balanced matrix out and I had the UA-5 all the way down, which is unity I think.  It was still too much so I switched to the rear inputs where you can get some actual attenuation.  Other boards have been fine on the fronts but I usually use the rear anyways.

[hexyjones]

Do the UA5 insturctions or specs give any indication of what those inputs expect to see?

Would they like a full blast +4db pro line level signal...? Or are they really more geared toward microphones and instruments...

[hexyjones]

Actually - re-reading the post...and considering he's a newbie...

Its unclear if he is actually refering to the UA5 XLR in...sounds like the "XLR Soundboard" he refers to is his feed...and he doesnt really say how he is going into the UA5?

[KLowe]

Hey yall,
Thanks for the help.

To clarify.  Going "in" from the board to the UA-5 from the XLR input slots in the front of the UA-5 (like a pair of mics).


mucho appreciato.

[BenJammin42]

I'm hoping to attempt the same thing with my new FR2...  RCA outs from the Soundboard, XLR ins on the FR2...  Powered from the wall...  No clue how it will work as I am also new with this...  Considering testing it on basic RCA out plugs from a stereo...

[hexyjones]

I'm hoping to attempt the same thing with my new FR2...  RCA outs from the Soundboard, XLR ins on the FR2...  Powered from the wall...  No clue how it will work as I am also new with this...  Considering testing it on basic RCA out plugs from a stereo...

If the board out is RCA - just go in on the RCAs...no need to complicate...nothing gained from going XLR in that scenario...

[dklein]

If the board out is RCA - just go in on the RCAs...no need to complicate...nothing gained from going XLR in that scenario...

If you are getting an XLR balanced connection from the board 6dB is gained   
Whether or not you want it is another matter....an XLR > RCA adapter will drop 6dB just by moving to unbalanced.

[hexyjones]

If the board out is RCA - just go in on the RCAs...no need to complicate...nothing gained from going XLR in that scenario...

If you are getting an XLR balanced connection from the board 6dB is gained   
Whether or not you want it is another matter....an XLR > RCA adapter will drop 6dB just by moving to unbalanced.

You mean a adapter with a transformer right...?

[BenJammin42]

I actually don't have a converter, I have two xlr to rca cables for the R & L analog inputs...  Will this diminish the sound?

[hexyjones]

On a per-device basis, you have to determine what the exact purpose of the XLR input jack is...

On the UA-5 - It seems unclear, but my hunch is those inputs are made for micrphones and instruments only...not pro line level feeds...

You'll have to examine the F2 - read the manual...

If your SBD feed is from an RCA...chances are, its "consumer" line level and you should just use the RCA ins...no matter the device...nothing really to gain with the XLR connection...

"XLR" itself is just the name of the plug and doesnt indicate much/anything about the signal it carries...

If your SBD feed is from an XLR - you better be sure your XLR ins are expecting that kind of signal...if you have to use RCAs then perhaps the transformers are in order or a device like this...

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LLS2/

[eman]

I'd like to point out, since it didn't occur to me for awhile after I had it, that the front XLR inputs on the UA5 also accept 1/4" plugs down the center. Might want to try to find out if those are handled differently than the XLRs.
I needed a way to plug in my AT822 (1/4" mono, 1/8" mono, or stereo mini) into the UA5 and after some head scratching said to myself, those holes look about the right size. Sure enough, they plug in there and it looks like there is a switch inside as well that kicks when you plug in a 1/4".

One more post and the t's start flying!

[hexyjones]

I'd like to point out, since it didn't occur to me for awhile after I had it, that the front XLR inputs on the UA5 also accept 1/4" plugs down the center. Might want to try to find out if those are handled differently than the XLRs.
I needed a way to plug in my AT822 (1/4" mono, 1/8" mono, or stereo mini) into the UA5 and after some head scratching said to myself, those holes look about the right size. Sure enough, they plug in there and it looks like there is a switch inside as well that kicks when you plug in a 1/4".

One more post and the t's start flying!

I suspect they are there for instruments...guitars, keys...and perhaps that kind of unbalanced mic in...

[jimmc]

I'd like to point out, since it didn't occur to me for awhile after I had it, that the front XLR inputs on the UA5 also accept 1/4" plugs down the center. Might want to try to find out if those are handled differently than the XLRs.
I needed a way to plug in my AT822 (1/4" mono, 1/8" mono, or stereo mini) into the UA5 and after some head scratching said to myself, those holes look about the right size. Sure enough, they plug in there and it looks like there is a switch inside as well that kicks when you plug in a 1/4".

One more post and the t's start flying!

I suspect they are there for instruments...guitars, keys...and perhaps that kind of unbalanced mic in...

Yep, the UA-5 front plugs that accept 1/4" can also be used w/ unbalance cables. I ran my Nak CM300's in this way until I got new mic cables. Worked just fine. The only drawback to the 1/4" unbalanced is that you cant use the phantom power, but w/ Nak's, you dont need phantom.
Also, last Thursday, I ran SBD XLR out > UA-5 XLR In, front panel > JB3.  My UA-5 peak light was flickering and flashing like crazy, so I assumed I'd have a junk recording, although my JB3 levels looked fine.  I had the front gain knobs turned completely "off" and still was peaking like crazy. Second set, I switched to run analog out of the UA-5 to try to control the hot signal from the SBD.  When I got home and listened, turns out I could have left the setup the same as the first set.  The recording came out amazing !!  Like I said, the peak light was flashing like never before, but it worked out fine.  That is the one and only time I ran SBD > UA-5 using XLR into the front of the UA-5.  I only did it because that was the only option I had that night.  Seemed to work out fine for me.  Good luck, only thing I can say is give it a try and see what happens.
Jim

[hexyjones]

I'd like to point out, since it didn't occur to me for awhile after I had it, that the front XLR inputs on the UA5 also accept 1/4" plugs down the center. Might want to try to find out if those are handled differently than the XLRs.
I needed a way to plug in my AT822 (1/4" mono, 1/8" mono, or stereo mini) into the UA5 and after some head scratching said to myself, those holes look about the right size. Sure enough, they plug in there and it looks like there is a switch inside as well that kicks when you plug in a 1/4".

One more post and the t's start flying!

I suspect they are there for instruments...guitars, keys...and perhaps that kind of unbalanced mic in...

Yep, the UA-5 front plugs that accept 1/4" can also be used w/ unbalance cables. I ran my Nak CM300's in this way until I got new mic cables. Worked just fine. The only drawback to the 1/4" unbalanced is that you cant use the phantom power, but w/ Nak's, you dont need phantom.
Also, last Thursday, I ran SBD XLR out > UA-5 XLR In, front panel > JB3.  My UA-5 peak light was flickering and flashing like crazy, so I assumed I'd have a junk recording, although my JB3 levels looked fine.  I had the front gain knobs turned completely "off" and still was peaking like crazy. Second set, I switched to run analog out of the UA-5 to try to control the hot signal from the SBD.  When I got home and listened, turns out I could have left the setup the same as the first set.  The recording came out amazing !!  Like I said, the peak light was flashing like never before, but it worked out fine.  That is the one and only time I ran SBD > UA-5 using XLR into the front of the UA-5.  I only did it because that was the only option I had that night.  Seemed to work out fine for me.  Good luck, only thing I can say is give it a try and see what happens.
Jim

Did it look unusual in an editor?

[jimmc]

One more thing/question.  Is the peak light on the UA-5 measuring the signal that is coming into the front panel when you run SBD > UA-5 using the XLR?  The signal into the JB3 seemed fine, but the peak light looked like a star shining in the night sky.  Doesnt seem to make sense. If I was running my mics w/ the peak light shining like that, I'm sure it would be full of brickwalling.

Anyway, I'd try my best from now on to run the SBD feed into the rear of the UA-5 to try to take advantage of the attenuator knob in the rear of the JB3, as others have stated.
Jim
Hope I didnt confuse anyone......

[jimmc]

Did it look unusual in an editor?

It looked "hot", but nothing too bad.  Here is a screen cap of one song from the first set.

[hexyjones]

looks fine...what kind of music...?

[jimmc]

looks fine...what kind of music...?

Roots/americana/rock band.  6 piece:  Electric guitar, drums, bass, acoustic guitar, mandolin, fiddle.
Really good, up-and-coming band from Western NY called Big Leg Emma.
I'm in the process of uploading this show to the archive right now.
Check em out if that sounds like your sort of thing.
Jim

[Brian Skalinder]

Is the peak light on the UA-5 measuring the signal that is coming into the front panel when you run SBD > UA-5 using the XLR?  The signal into the JB3 seemed fine, but the peak light looked like a star shining in the night sky.

The UA5 peak light triggers at around -3dB, so theoretically it could stay lit through an entire recording session without clipping.  Theoretically, of course.

If I was running my mics w/ the peak light shining like that, I'm sure it would be full of brickwalling.

Brickwalling is typically used to describe overloading the analog inputs.  The word you're looking for is clipping.  BTW, you could also apply the above theoretical statement to mics, but remember it's only theoretical!

[jimmc]

Brian,
Thanks for the clarification.  +T
Jim

[suspect]

Does the UA-5 need to be modded by Oade in order to use the Rear inputs?  I have the stock unit but I go into my laptop via USB.  I was under the assumption that I could run the unit with it's full capabilities (multi-out/etc) as long as it's plugged into the usb.  My main reason for this is, can I use the UA-5 to take two inputs (say sbd/mics) and pump it to my laptop?  I know we're getting a little OT here but it still relates to SBD/XLR and the UA-5 

[Brian Skalinder]

Does the UA-5 need to be modded by Oade in order to use the Rear inputs?

Nope.  The rear inputs are active independent of the Oade digi-mod.  The Oade digi-mod simply allows for coax and optical digi-out without a PC hooked up via USB.

[suspect]

So as long as it's hooked up to a PC, it is not limited in any way?  +T for the help.

[dklein]

If you are getting an XLR balanced connection from the board 6dB is gained   
Whether or not you want it is another matter....an XLR > RCA adapter will drop 6dB just by moving to unbalanced.

You mean a adapter with a transformer right...?

Sorry, wasn't trying to confuse.  All I was saying is that if you take a balanced connection and unbalance it, you lose 6 dB (because you end up only using half of the balanced signal).  No transformers involved.

[Brian Skalinder]

So as long as it's hooked up to a PC, it is not limited in any way? +T for the help.

Yes, other than the limitations - as designed - in its stock form, i.e. no capability to run as a standalone unit w/o PC.

[hexyjones]

If you are getting an XLR balanced connection from the board 6dB is gained   
Whether or not you want it is another matter....an XLR > RCA adapter will drop 6dB just by moving to unbalanced.

You mean a adapter with a transformer right...?

Sorry, wasn't trying to confuse.  All I was saying is that if you take a balanced connection and unbalance it, you lose 6 dB (because you end up only using half of the balanced signal).  No transformers involved.

So - if I use unbalanced mic cables on say, a Nak 300 - I will end up with 6db less than if I use balanced cables...?

I always thought the balanced v unbalnaced thing was about the nature of the connection...particularly how the ground is used...longer runs, better shielding etc...

[momule]

If your SBD feed is from an XLR - you better be sure your XLR ins are expecting that kind of signal...if you have to use RCAs then perhaps the transformers are in order or a device like this...

I pulled a "Stealth" SBD of Muddy Waters Son using the XLR in's On my stock UA-5>Jb3 , And let me tell you . It shined 
I'll load a sample here shortly. I was very happy with the Results . Just use 10 "oclock" as a starting level is my experience with the half dozen SBD feeds I have got . all have been full sized consoles using XLR in.

Nick

edit to include a very small sample. And remember it's 64 Kbps  , But I think you get the idea that it was a hot Feed, as you should hear some of the other parts.

[dklein]

So - if I use unbalanced mic cables on say, a Nak 300 - I will end up with 6db less than if I use balanced cables...?

I always thought the balanced v unbalnaced thing was about the nature of the connection...particularly how the ground is used...longer runs, better shielding etc...

Yes, if the source is balanced to begin with.  For simplicity, let's just pretend you're running some DC voltage on the cable.  In a balanced situation you've got 3 connections: ground, + and - (in a mic, the + and - are the signal, one in phase and one inverted)
Now let's suppose you have +5 volts on the + side and -5 volts on the '-' side (that's kinda how your mic signal comes out on a balanced connection)
On true balanced input, you generate the signal by looking at the difference b/w + and -, which in this case is 10 volts
If you unbalance that, you end up just using one 'side'.  You use the difference b/w the + and the ground, which is 5 volts
You're left with half the signal, which is equivalent to 6 dB.

I don't know the Nak 300 so I can't comment.

So the reason balanced cables are good is because anything that happens to one wire happens to the other (like rf).  So when you get to the end of the cable and look at what's different about the 2 signals, they have that 'interference' in common - and it cancels out.    You get cleaner transmission.  But it only works up to the point that you keep the balance.
 i.e. putting a RCA>XLR adapter on an RCA cable and then running a length of balanced cable won't do ya any good because the signal wasn't balanced to begin with.

did that make any sense?