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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Masters?
« on: January 01, 2008, 12:13:22 PM »
So I have a few shows on my laptop here....including my first solo pull (some Steve Pryor).....

But anyways...

I have all of these files building up on my computer....

Example: for the Steve Pryor...
I have my "Masters" usually two .Wav's from my R-09 for the first and second set...

Then I take those sets and split them into tracks with CD Wave Editor...and I export them, as .wav's again, into a new nicely organized folder...

Then I take those tracks...or my original full set .wav file (I say "or" because I don't have a system for this and things still happen in different sequences...)...and convert to level 8 FLAC using FLAC frontend...

So you see I now have set 1&2 in .wav, I have all of set 1&2 split up in .wav, then I have Flacs of either just the split tracks or just the full sets....

Also, just last night, I decided it would be cool to be able and archive my 24/48 files for safety sake, and also keep 16/44.1 around for making cd's for people...



My question is this...

How should I better manage my files?

I guess I want to have access to all of my files in their different formats and bit depths...

Will someone slap some sense into me?????!!!
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline JD

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 12:49:12 PM »
I make a folder that includes the following;
-- the master files (24/48)
-- the 24 bit post edited files (usually untracked)
-- the tracked out 16/44.1 flac files
-- text files
-- CDwave cue sheet (in case I ever want to track out the 24 bit edited file)
-- a MD5 file that includes all of the above

I then burn this on to two DVDs and one external hard drive. One DVD goes to a friends house in case something catastrophic happens here. The DVD at my place, for the most part, never gets touched.
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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 01:03:48 PM »
I make a folder that includes the following;
-- the master files (24/48)
-- the 24 bit post edited files (usually untracked)
-- the tracked out 16/44.1 flac files
-- text files
-- CDwave cue sheet (in case I ever want to track out the 24 bit edited file)
-- a MD5 file that includes all of the above

I then burn this on to two DVDs and one external hard drive. One DVD goes to a friends house in case something catastrophic happens here. The DVD at my place, for the most part, never gets touched.


Okay...let's start with...

What are text files?

Cue sheet?

MD5?

And which files do you burn to a dvd? And is that like a dvd-a or something? (Can my normal laptop or desktop dvd burner do it?)

+T for responses to any of the above.... ??? :o ;) :)

+T to Jaledu already...
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline JD

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 01:21:43 PM »

Okay...let's start with...

What are text files?

A text document with info about the recording, band, date, location, equipment used, set list.....


Cue sheet?

I use CDwave to track out my shows in 16 bit. There is an option to save a cue sheet. This can be loaded back into CDwave and used later to track out another file at the same time increments (the 24 file bit in my case).


MD5?

A MD5 file is a checksum file, it verifies that a file has not become corrupt in any way. Very useful when transferring data. I still use the old MKW shorten tool which when installed adds a "create MD5 file" option when right clicking over a file or folder. I create one MD5 file for the above mentioned folder containing all the files. After coping the folder, one click verifies all the contents.



And which files do you burn to a dvd? And is that like a dvd-a or something? (Can my normal laptop or desktop dvd burner do it?)

I burn all of the files to a data DVD(s) for archival purposes. Yes any DVD burner should be able to do this.

+T to Jaledu already...

+T back-atcha

Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
Pres: DPA MMA6000; Grace V2; Portico 5012; Sonosax SX-M2
Recorders: Edirol R09hr, Sound Devices 722

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 01:23:53 PM »
While I've modified it since, here's an old template text file I posted as reference.

Keep in mind MD5s create a signature for the entire file, so if, for example, a tag associated in the file changes, the MD5 will no longer match.  Which is why I like...

FLAC FingerPrint (FFP) files do the same thing, but for FLAC files.  The nice thing (I think) about FFPs:  they create a "signature" only for the audio content.  This means I can change my tags and the FFP will still match.
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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 07:24:43 PM »
What are these Fingerprints (which I think I can do in FLAC Frontend ???) for? Like what purpose do these files serve?

Is this for trading and whatnot? like seeing a torrent or something like that? Because I don't plan on that...yet at least...

I am sorry if this is all basic...and further reference material you guys think I might need to look at would be much appreciated....

+T to Brian, as always, and +T in 12 to Jaledu...



"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline cleantone

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 09:53:30 PM »
Quote
Like what purpose do these files serve?

It is for verification. Suppose you were to burn a CDR/DVDR or transfer a file on the internet. The MD5 or Fingerprint file can be used to verify that the file it intact and not flawed. May come in handy ten years from now when your transferring to some data storage that has yet to be invented.
ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 10:20:21 PM »
Okay...I see...

So I guess I need to get myself a nice external hard drive, seems like I am going to need something like a 500 eventually...I see these things getting pretty cheap lately...

I may look into starting to burn my stuff down to DVD's as well...I wonder how much fits onto a dvd?  ???

I am also going to write up some text files...

+T...
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline cleantone

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 10:24:56 PM »
4.36 gigabytes fit onto a DVDR single layer disc.
ISO: your recordings of The Slip, Surprise Me Mr. Davis and The Barr Brothers. pm me please.

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2008, 11:59:29 AM »
So I guess I need to get myself a nice external hard drive, seems like I am going to need something like a 500 eventually
I may look into starting to burn my stuff down to DVD's as well
I am also going to write up some text files

I do both...save the filesets on external HD and burn to data DVD.
I also give away lots of copies to people in the neighborhood in case something happens.
I write my text file at the time of transfer (basic info thru mic config/gear used)and update it at each stage of the process(post process info/setlist/notes/fingerprint)
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2008, 10:35:11 PM »
I recommend developing a workflow and sticking to it.  I even wrote mine out as a checklist initially to help ensure consistency.  Now it's second nature, so I don't use the checklist any longer.

Couple other things to keep in mind:

1.  Redundancy / Fault Tolerance
2.  Backup

Redundancy / Fault Tolerance

Basically, redundancy allows you to continue functioning - without potentially long or painful restoration from off-line backups - in the event of a component failure, like a HDD.  I have all 620 GB of my audio data (masters, other live recordings, studio) simultaneously stored on two HDDs.  They're basically mirrors of one another that are synced automatically every night.  More info in the reasonable redundancy thread.  (My personal needs / preferences don't warrant real-time redundancy, a la RAID.)  If one HDD fails, I still have access to my data.  In this event, I'd replace the dead HDD and re-sync the new HDD with the existing HDD.  (In fact, I just had a HDD die on me...need to order another pronto.)

Backup

Backups are typically off-line copies of data you may restore to your system in the event a problem occurs that wipes out your redundant data.  For example, two mirrored HDDs dying simultaneously, fire / flood, etc.  I have all 620 GB of my audio data backed up locally to optical media - mainly DVD, and some CD.  So if my mirrored HDDs both fail for some reason, I could restore from DVD/CD.  (Ugh...that would suck, and the sheer volume is a big reason I have redundancy built into my online computer system.)  Note:  if you don't have lots of data, redundancy may not be as big a deal.  It wasn't for me, at first.

In addition to my local CD/DVD backups, I also have all my data backed up off-site at my father's house on two HDDs, in case my house burns down or some such.  I don't update my offsite storage as frequently - I just started, and my plan is to update every quarter - so in the event of fire / flood / other natural disaster, there's a good chance my data will survive.

Finally, I share almost all my recordings either with a broad fan base, or close trusted friends / music lovers.  For me, this kinda comes with the territory - I enjoy sharing with my fellow music fans.  The offshoot:  if my and my father's house gets wiped out in a natural disaster or some such, most of my data's out there somewhere, though it may prove difficult to track all of it down.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 11:59:11 AM by Brian Skalinder »
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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2008, 10:59:44 AM »
Thank you Brian...

I thought I had this FLAC thing down...downloaded Frontend and thought I was doing well but I don't align sector boundaries or make fingerprints...so now I am all confused again...(edit: Does anyone know of any resources that would help me out with this...?)

I guess my motivation in keeping the same files saved in different formats is to not have to encode/decode all the time when I need a file...so I have been keeping them in 16/44.1, 24/48, and flac...

Now another question to interrupt my own train of thought...Can I flac 24/48 files? Or is there some lossless compression that works on 24/48?

A workflow? I like the sound of that...so, Brian, does that mean that you do the same post production processes every time? Post production is what scares me the most...I have not been doing any post work because I fear compromising or screwing up my recording somehow...I know a lot of people use a "normalize" function, so I was doing that, but then I heard that in Audacity the Normalize and Amplify functions might not do exactly what they are supposed to...

Do you guys have any favorite types of external HDD's? or DVD-A's?

Let me go up the list and give everyone +T again....
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 11:01:47 AM by Mr.Fantasy »
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline kindms

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 02:01:45 PM »
Thank you Brian...

I thought I had this FLAC thing down...downloaded Frontend and thought I was doing well but I don't align sector boundaries or make fingerprints...so now I am all confused again...(edit: Does anyone know of any resources that would help me out with this...?)

I guess my motivation in keeping the same files saved in different formats is to not have to encode/decode all the time when I need a file...so I have been keeping them in 16/44.1, 24/48, and flac...

Now another question to interrupt my own train of thought...Can I flac 24/48 files? Or is there some lossless compression that works on 24/48?

A workflow? I like the sound of that...so, Brian, does that mean that you do the same post production processes every time? Post production is what scares me the most...I have not been doing any post work because I fear compromising or screwing up my recording somehow...I know a lot of people use a "normalize" function, so I was doing that, but then I heard that in Audacity the Normalize and Amplify functions might not do exactly what they are supposed to...

Do you guys have any favorite types of external HDD's? or DVD-A's?

Let me go up the list and give everyone +T again....

RE: SBE's

You mentioned that you track out your 16/44.1 files using CD WAV editor. CD WAV Editor alighns on SBE's by default so you don't need to worry about that as much and it is only an issue with 16Bit files.

RE: workflow

This is what I do.
24/48 RAW files. those get saved exactly as it was recorded nothing done to them
24/48 Mastered. I add some gain if necessary, fades etc. these are saved.
16/44.1 These files are the exact same as the above 24/48 Mastered but that have had the bit depth and sample rate converted.

The 24/48 mastered files are then tracked out in CD WAV Editor. SAVE THE CUE SHEETS
Then I open the 16/44.1 files. Open the CUE SHEETS for the 24/48 when it asks to open the file associated with them say NO (this will place the track markers in the identical place as your 24/48 files and saves you the step of having to track from scratch)

I use the tracked out 24/48 Mastered to author a DVD-A

Then I take my 24/48 tracked out version, the original RAW 24/48 and the tracked out 16/44.1 and they all get FLAC'd. I create text files and also Flac Fingerprint files for all the file sets. I then burn those files to a DVD

If the recording is good. I will also leave a 24/48 Flac copy on my external HDD for ease of playback etc

edited: I forgot to mention when i did the Flac fingerprints
« Last Edit: January 03, 2008, 02:16:22 PM by kindms »
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Offline Mr.Fantasy

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2008, 03:29:52 PM »
+T

Let me dig in and start developing a plan... ;D

Then I will come with more questions...
"I read somewhere that 77 percent of all the mentally ill live in poverty. Actually, I'm more intrigued by the 23 percent who are apparently doing quite well for themselves" ---Jerry Garcia

Modified Nak 300's -> PS2 -> R-09 (looking for a pre-amp but am very indecisive)

Offline RobertNC

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Re: Masters?
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2008, 10:27:14 AM »
Thank you Brian...

I thought I had this FLAC thing down...downloaded Frontend and thought I was doing well but I don't align sector boundaries or make fingerprints...so now I am all confused again...(edit: Does anyone know of any resources that would help me out with this...?)


OK a little more details on the whole Sector Boundary thing.  As has already been mentioned, you should not have to worry about this.

But here is some more info, about all you really need to know:

Sector Boundaries Errors can be confusing but the good news is you should not have to worry about it in practice. 

Here is the practical stuff - really simple.

FLAC Frontend is kind of weird about sector boundary alignment.  I've encoded files that were originally tracked in CDWave with the alignment option enabled in FLAC Frontend, and it has given me SBE warnings.  Don't know the program so I don't know why.  I do know this from experience:

1)  Track your wavs in CDWave, and they will definitely be sector boundary aligned, no worries about the details on your part.  It does it automatically.

2)  Just turn the alignment option off in FLAC Frontend.  CDWave has already done it right for you.  With the option off, the FLAC encoded files will still be sector boundary aligned.

Do that, and you are golden without having to even know what a sector boundary is.

But if you want to know a little more:

Where sector boundaries come from is the Redbook CD standard. 

By convention a CD breaks things up into "blocks".  A block contains 1/75 of a second of music.  A block also contains 588 samples.  So from the beginning of the wav you will have units of 588 samples/block.  But now you want to split a big wav into tracks.  You decide some time, say ~5:00 minutes to split the second track from the first.  How do you know the place you decided to split is an exact multiple of 588 from where the track started?  You probably don't, but a CD cannot write a partial block, and a new track must always start on a new block.  Say you split the file in the middle of the last block.  The last block of the first track will have 294 samples of music - data - before the cut.  But the CD does not allow writing only a half block - it has to finish in full blocks with 588 always.  So second half of the 294 samples of the last block gets padded with null data, and the second track starts on the next block at 0 again.

In the worse case you might have audible artifacts from that last half a block of no data.  It might be too short to notice, but it is still a problem, because say you need to track out the same file again later.  You cut it at ~5:00 again.  But this time did you actually split the file at 293 samples or 295 samples instead of exactly 294?   That is definitely not an audible difference, but it does mean you cannot match the original checksums for the original tracks you cut because the data is not *exactly* the same.

Enter CDWave.  You say "OK I want track 1 to end at 5:00 and track 2 to start right after".  CDWave says "No what you really want is track 1 to be sector boundary aligned, i.e it should end exactly on the *full block* of 588 samples nearest 5:00 so track 2 can start on exactly the next block, with no null data having to be added".  You say "OK, whatever, please handle that detail for me".  And it does.  It's that simple.  Track your stuff in CDWave (or some other program that does automatic SB alignment, encode it in FLAC Frontend without the alignment option, and don't worry about it further.

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