Topic: R4 & R44 A>D Questions

[F0CKER]

SO many of y'all have seen my posts about the Soundfield and Sound Devices issues I've been having...well I'm also having some money issues too because god made water more corrosive than the stuff they put on my roof to protect me.  I have some serious bills coming up and might need to sell my 744 and move to an R4.

Running B Format to the R4 shouldn't be a problem, and I actually like the fact the gain control is on knobs for all 4 channels, vs 3&4 beign menu settingson the 744.

Anyone care to comment on likes / dislikes between the two (744 and R4) and specifcally how they feel about the A/D on the R4?

I can search, I know, but then you'd have to do work instead of wasting time posting on the internet talking about something you probably want to talk about anyway.

[halleyscomet8]

jim pollock moved from a 744t> r4 pro a few months ago. and is running b format also. good luck hearing those though i think the r4 is very user friendly personally. i would look at the r44 also. the pre>a/d stage is a good bit cleaner than the stock r4.

[Patrick]

jim pollock moved from a 744t> r4 pro a few months ago. and is running b format also. good luck hearing those though i think the r4 is very user friendly personally. i would look at the r44 also. the pre>a/d stage is a good bit cleaner than the stock r4.

Yep, Jim did this move a while back, and seems to like it.  Like you said, having 4 identical mic preamps is beneficial, unlike hauling around another stereo preamp or running line into channels 3+4 of the 744t.  I am not sure if there are dramatic differences between the r4 and r44's sound but I'm sure they have made improvements in the r44.

[F0CKER]

jimmyrow, you around?

Thanks for the feedback..I need to do some homework today.  The biggest pain running B Format is the gain settings for channels 3&4...they can't be adjusted easily without using an extrenal pre which is probably what SD had in mind.  And you need to unlock the box to do it...I always fear accidentally stopping my recording while I'm adjusting gain.

[OFOTD]

It was my R4 Pro that Jimbo picked up.  I am a big homer to the R4 Pro and can't recommend it enough.  Personally I preferred the pres of the Pro model to the regular R4 (owned both models).   

Hopefully Jimbo is digging the unit as I was sorry to see it go.  Many times I wish I had held onto it instead of the 744. 

[F0CKER]

I'm not too concerned about the preamps, just the A/D conversion...any thoughts there?  Any significant differences between the R4 and R4 Pro if I'm only using for A/D and as a bit bucket?

[Craig T]

Just do it, that way you can move on to enjoying shows and making complete recordings instead of wating time and energy dealing with the current 350<>744 BS.  I'm sick of your bitching.   

[F0CKER]

Just do it, that way you can move on to enjoying shows and making complete recordings instead of wating time and energy dealing with the current 350<>744 BS.  I'm sick of your bitching.   

You suck.  Craig - T

 

I'm hating life too...BTW, I made 3 complete tapes this week.
 
 

Are you doing any shows this weekend?

[Craig T]

Garage A Trois (Benevento-Skerik-Moore-Dillon) tonight at the North Star.  Get the 350 back on that stage!

Bruce Hornsby tomorrow at HoB-AC

Steep Canyon Rangers in Bridgewater, NJ on Sunday (maybe)

[F0CKER]

Garage A Trois (Benevento-Skerik-Moore-Dillon) tonight at the North Star.  Get the 350 back on that stage!

I'm not sure I'm fully recovered from Tue / Wed Lucero yet.  I need a break this weekend I think.

Plus I'm at 75% success rate, I don't want to fuck that up.

[Craig T]

Garage A Trois (Benevento-Skerik-Moore-Dillon) tonight at the North Star.  Get the 350 back on that stage!

I'm not sure I'm fully recovered from Tue / Wed Lucero yet.  I need a break this weekend I think.

Plus I'm at 75% success rate, I don't want to fuck that up.

I'll give Marco a call to let him know you're too much of a pussy to stay up past 11pm on a Friday night because you went out a few nights ago.  Maybe they'll reschedule for a night that works better for you... what's your next few weeks look like?

[John Willett]

Forget the R4 - if you *have* to sell the SD, get an R4-Pro or an R44.

Personally, selling the SD would be a last resort action - if you have to do it, I feel sorry for you.

But the house and family have to come first.

[F0CKER]

Can anyone give me some details that support their statements?  Why the R4 Pro over the R4, etc?  What DAC chip is in the R4 / R4 Pro...etc. 

I'm only using the 744 as a bit bucket and it has some inherent disadvantages to the Edirols IMO in terms of ease of use when running B Format. 

I'll keep searching but I can't seem to locate much...

[stirinthesauce]

r44

I've run the 744 and r44 enough times to say, I am very impressed with the r44 pre's as well as the a/d.  My wallet thanks me as well 

[F0CKER]

I'll give Marco a call to let him know you're too much of a pussy to stay up past 11pm on a Friday night because you went out a few nights ago.  Maybe they'll reschedule for a night that works better for you... what's your next few weeks look like?

Ask them to come back in October...I'm booked solid until then.

[Craig T]

I'll give Marco a call to let him know you're too much of a pussy to stay up past 11pm on a Friday night because you went out a few nights ago.  Maybe they'll reschedule for a night that works better for you... what's your next few weeks look like?

Ask them to come back in October...I'm booked solid until then.

well, if you change your mind, you know NSB shows never start on time.  I wouldn't expect them to hit the stage until at least 10pm.

and you suck at quoting.   

[rdfager]

I'm only using the 744 as a bit bucket and it has some inherent disadvantages to the Edirols IMO in terms of ease of use when running B Format. 

First, I've got to say that I love my R4.  However, If I was in the market right now, I'd look at the R44 long and hard, especially if I were considering using it as a bit bucket.  I haven't heard a modded R44 yet but I'll bet they sound great and the price is really hard to beat.  The R44 adds a few great features to the R4, namely the ability to run digital in on 2 channels with analog in on the other 2 and not resampling digital in

Either way you go, I don't think you'll miss the 744 too much.  7xx's are nice boxes but the Edirols are great for the price.

[Busman Audio]

I will say that the R44 definitely has some better features than the R4 but I really don't like having to deal with SD cards especially when doing fests or multiple show runs on the road.

The R44 has generally the same feature set as the R4pro and good stock sound but you don't need that. If you don't mind dealing with external media I would just go to the r44 otherwise go with the R4pro for better features than the R4.
Main feature I wish the R4 had is to go digital + analog and the gain gain/trim knobs that the R4pro and R44 have.

If you want good pres a modded R4 is the best choice.

[F0CKER]

It looks like I'm going R44.  I generally prefer havign mass storage capacity but the 744 is only 40Gb and I can get a 32GB card these days so it's basically a moot point. 

There's no card size or file size limit on the R44, is there?

[pmonk66]

So this is where you go on your hiatus?

[F0CKER]

So this is where you go on your hiatus?

 

[joel]

I will say that the R44 definitely has some better features than the R4 but I really don't like having to deal with SD cards especially when doing fests or multiple show runs on the road.

I've had SD cards crap out on me too and have lost pictures so the whole "no hard drive no moveable parts is better" argument doesn't carry as much weight with me. 

[nottingham]

For me, the only time I had problems with the cards cf or sd is when I took them out of the device and used a card reader. As far as I know right now the R-44 only can be used with a 8gb card.

[F0CKER]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

[stevetoney]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

I can't confirm one way or the other, but the R-44 just came earlier this year, so 16 and 32 bit cards were definitely available.  The 8gb limitation, if true, was something that I considered a problem with the R-44.  FWIW, I can't remember if it was the website or the instruction manual says the limitation is 8gb.  If you're recording 4 channels at 24/96, if my math is correct, I'm pretty sure that's only 2 hours of recording.

You earlier said you didn't care about the preamps on the R-44.  You should.  You do realize that on the edirol products I'm pretty sure there's no way to record in a Line In mode, unless that's a new feature on the R-44.  I downloaded the manual and didn't see anywhere in the manual that indicated that it is there.  In the very short time that I owned an R-4, I discovered this fact too late (after I'd already purchased the recorder).  Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like. 

I hope I'm wrong on the above with the R-44, but I've asked the question once or twice now and none of the R-44 owners have been able to tell me the new design is any different than the old. 

[Ozpeter]

Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like.

I've just done a quick test of the R-44 TRS input (which would appear to be the same as the mic input but the gain control allows line level input) and it measures essentially flat from 20,000kHz down to 60kHz.  There's then a 0.75dB lift to 40Hz followed by a smooth rolloff with the -3dB point at 30 Hz.

Now I admit that there's a source of inaccuracy in my test procedure - which involved copying a gliding tone file (generated by Adobe Audition, which is pretty accurate) onto an SD card, and then playing that file from the line out of a Zoom H2 into the line in of the R-44.  So the measurement is actually the combination of the H2 output and the R-44 input.   Which goes to show the excellence of modern audio electronics these days.  I doubt whether you'd be able to hear any colouration from the R-44 inputs.

[F0CKER]

Is that based on what the website says > 8GB?  At the time that was the max capacity card available for SDHC Cards I thought.

Can anyone confirm if the R44 will accept the 16 or 32GB SDHC cards available now?

I can't confirm one way or the other, but the R-44 just came earlier this year, so 16 and 32 bit cards were definitely available.  The 8gb limitation, if true, was something that I considered a problem with the R-44.  FWIW, I can't remember if it was the website or the instruction manual says the limitation is 8gb.  If you're recording 4 channels at 24/96, if my math is correct, I'm pretty sure that's only 2 hours of recording.

You earlier said you didn't care about the preamps on the R-44.  You should.  You do realize that on the edirol products I'm pretty sure there's no way to record in a Line In mode, unless that's a new feature on the R-44.  I downloaded the manual and didn't see anywhere in the manual that indicated that it is there.  In the very short time that I owned an R-4, I discovered this fact too late (after I'd already purchased the recorder).  Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like. 

I hope I'm wrong on the above with the R-44, but I've asked the question once or twice now and none of the R-44 owners have been able to tell me the new design is any different than the old. 

Thanks Tonedeaf, this is helpful.  I'll look into it more today.  w/o line in, I'll probably get a mod to the unit then...I'll give Doug Oade a call as I've always had an ear for his mods and products.  I'll follow up with Edirol as well...

+T

[stevetoney]

Since the on-board pre's color the sound to their own flavor, if you hook a preamp in front, the R-4s preamps are dominant in the final equation.  In fact, I didn't hear where my outboard preamp (Oade 148) really made much of a difference in the final sound, either connected or not...meaning that the R4 sound is what you get no matter what.  Personally, I didn't like the sound of the busman mod R-4, either with or without outboard preamps.  Great detail, but no balls at all...fact very little low end at all.

So, make sure you can run the R-44 in a Line In mode or else you'll be 'stuck' with the sound the R-44 gives you.  Having said that, I have heard the R-44 sound and to my ears anyway it sounds quite a lot warmer and fuller, which I like.

I've just done a quick test of the R-44 TRS input (which would appear to be the same as the mic input but the gain control allows line level input) and it measures essentially flat from 20,000kHz down to 60kHz.  There's then a 0.75dB lift to 40Hz followed by a smooth rolloff with the -3dB point at 30 Hz.

Now I admit that there's a source of inaccuracy in my test procedure - which involved copying a gliding tone file (generated by Adobe Audition, which is pretty accurate) onto an SD card, and then playing that file from the line out of a Zoom H2 into the line in of the R-44.  So the measurement is actually the combination of the H2 output and the R-44 input.   Which goes to show the excellence of modern audio electronics these days.  I doubt whether you'd be able to hear any colouration from the R-44 inputs.

That's good info, but it probably isn't enough to convince me. 

What I'd really like to know though is, if I run say a V3 in front of an R-44, is my resulting sound gonna be V3 or is it gonna sound like the R-44?  My experience with the R-4 is that, it doesn't matter what I put in front, it's still gonna sound like the R-4. 

I guess all I'm saying then is, I trust your data, but am not convinced that it translates into what I'd love to hear from the R-44 users...which is that the V3 sound is still retained when using the R-44.  Based on my own past experiences, I really have my doubts if that will be the case.

If there was a Line In circuit that let me use the recorder simply as a bitbucket, then I could still use any outboard rig I wanted without the R-44 influencing the sound at all.

[Ozpeter]

Apparently the R-44 has the same input circuitry as the R-4 Pro rather than the R-4, which seems to have a reputation for being noisier.  In case you've not seen the specs, then these are the relevant ones for input -

● Analog Input
Ch 1 - 4: XLR/TRS Combo type
XLR type (phantom powered)
TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)
Stereo Built-in Microphones

● Input Impedance
XLR: 4k ohms or greater (balanced)
TRS: 6k ohms or greater (balanced)

● Nominal Input Level
11 steps:+4,-2-,8,-14,-20,-26,-32,-38,-44,-50,-56
(Input Level Knob: Center)
Input Level Knob: negative infinity to +8 dBu

● Maximum Input
+24 dBu (Input Sens Knob: +4dBu)

● Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise
Line output: 0.02% (Input Sens: +4dBu)

● Noise Level
Line Output: -10dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Center)

● Residual Noise Level
Line Output: -103 dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Minimum)

● Frequency Response
20Hz - 40kHz (0/-3 dB)

● Dynamic Range
AD: 100 dB
DA: 104 dB

● Phantom Power
48V +/- 4V
8mA per 1 channel (20mA or less for all channels)

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders?  It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

[stevetoney]

Hi Ozpeter.  I'm not sure we're communicating well with each other.  I think maybe I'm speaking oranges and you're speaking apples.  I'll try to add some clarification to my own earlier responses though.

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

What you say in you first sentence makes perfect sense, _IF_ the only goal is low noise.  Clearly, having a string of components in front of the R-44 won't make for a lower noise setup. 

However, what I was referring to earlier though is that I like the sound of my external preamps because they provide a specific preferred overall sound flavor...whether thats described as transparency, warmth, depth, clarity, soundstage or a combination of all of these.  If the R-4/R-4Pro/R-44 enabled Line In bypassing of the R-4/R4Pro/R-44 preamps the same as, say the HD-P2 does and many other 2 channel recorders do, then that would be a valuable feature for me because I could retain the preamp flavour that I desire...which isn't a noise concern for me.

Regarding the last sentence above, I'm not sure why you think nobody would run a V3 in front of an R-44.  There are numerous sources on the archive where an external preamp is run upstream of the R-4.  It's just that in my personal opinion, the sound output from the R-4 preamps end up dominating...such that for example you no longer have a V3 sounding recording if it's upstream of the R-4.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders? 

For sure.  I think most of the popular recorders (PMD-671, HD-P2, FR2, SD7XX, etc) have a parallel line-in routing scheme, although some of the lower priced models don't (FR2LE).  On my HD-P2, Line In is accomplished via RCAs and two switches on the top of the recorder, one for each channel. 

It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

True, but it depends totally on the goal of your setup.  Many people will relish the fact that the R-44 sounds good and therefore, they can sell off their outboard preamps and put some extra cash in their pockets...or reduce the size of their rig. 

That's not necessarily my goal...my first priority is my sound.  My main interest in the R-44 is 4 channels so I don't want the on-board preamps to be limiting because I like the sound of my outboard preamps.  I went through a TON of rigs to find the sound that I finally like, so don't want to go away from that now.  BUT, I'd also like a 4 channel recorder and can't afford a SD744.

[F0CKER]

So is that the general feeling of most R44 owners using an outboard preamp?  Is there enough coloration of the R44 to warrant a possible mod, or do most owners like to stock R44 sound in conjunction with an outboard pre?

[halleyscomet8]

ok, i am pretty sure louie (nolafishwater) has run a 16g card. he and buff both run pre's in front of there's.

[nottingham]

The R09HR firmware upgrade enabled the use of a 32gb sdhc card, so I don’t see why a firmware upgrade won’t be available for the R-44.

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.msg1421074.html#msg1421074

[F0CKER]

Will any 32GB SDHC card suffice or should I look for something specific?

[stevetoney]

ok, i am pretty sure louie (nolafishwater) has run a 16g card. he and buff both run pre's in front of there's.

Being 16 and 32GB card compatible would be great.  I hope that it is.  Not sure, but I'd think that a fairly fast card would be advisable, since writing to 4 channels simulateously is alot of data throughput.

I got a PM less than a week ago from Louie and at that point he still hadn't run the R-44 with the V3 out front yet.  He did say that he's gonna run a test soon though.

Hey Focker, I assume you've gone out there to the archive and done some R-44 listening.  The reason I say that is there are enough samples out there right now that you can I think form an opinion on the sound of the stock R-44.  I personally think it sounds great.   Frankly, that's what's kept me on the fence about this because I think that my DPAs would probably sound really nice through the stock R-44.  

But like I said before I went through so much to finally get to a sound that I like that I'm hardly ready to ditch it now and commit to the R-44 without hearing samples with my particular setup first.  Course, I'd ideally love to be able to say it doesn't matter at all for reasons I've already stated in a couple of earlier posts.

[nottingham]

Steve I have a Oade CM mod coming on Thursday. I'll let you know it sounds with and without the Aerco.

[stevetoney]

Steve I have a Oade CM mod coming on Thursday. I'll let you know it sounds with and without the Aerco.

Oooh, nice.  You took the plunge, eh? 

I really hope it sounds great because if it does, I'm there!

EDIT:  I should say that I know it will sound great...what I meant to say is that I really hope that you still get the nice Aerco flavor with it...and of course you'll get the R-44 flavor, which is a winner.

[F0CKER]

Hey Focker, I assume you've gone out there to the archive and done some R-44 listening.  The reason I say that is there are enough samples out there right now that you can I think form an opinion on the sound of the stock R-44.  I personally think it sounds great.   Frankly, that's what's kept me on the fence about this because I think that my DPAs would probably sound really nice through the stock R-44.  

  Why would you assume I did any homework?  You're talking to the guy who bought a SF350 without even hearing it!  I guess the laugh is, looked how well that's worked out for me....  I did do some homework by asking friends who've run them their thoughts on them....

Actually I'm under the gun timewise and the Edirols fit for me, right now it's only a matter of which one, with the R44 winning out.  I have a hard time getting a sense for gear when I don't know the rooms, bands, setup, etc sometimes...I only go from what I know first hand usually after having been at the show and seen where people setup, sound, etc.  I've always lived by the philosophy if it doesn't work out you can always sell it and get something else....so with that in mind I spoke with Doug Oade and decided to agree with him and get the Concert Mod he recommended and bought new.  I need a deck for next weekend and have been out of the game with malfunctioning gear so long, I don't even want to go through a listening test right now.  I'll evaluate it as I use it....that's always been my motto.  But I always like to hear some people fluffing to give me a little confidence.

[stevetoney]

Hey Focker, I assume you've gone out there to the archive and done some R-44 listening.  The reason I say that is there are enough samples out there right now that you can I think form an opinion on the sound of the stock R-44.  I personally think it sounds great.   Frankly, that's what's kept me on the fence about this because I think that my DPAs would probably sound really nice through the stock R-44.  

  Why would you assume I did any homework?  You're talking to the guy who bought a SF350 without even hearing it!  I guess the laugh is, looked how well that's worked out for me....  I did do some homework by asking friends who've run them their thoughts on them....

Actually I'm under the gun timewise and the Edirols fit for me, right now it's only a matter of which one, with the R44 winning out.  I have a hard time getting a sense for gear when I don't know the rooms, bands, setup, etc sometimes...I only go from what I know first hand usually after having been at the show and seen where people setup, sound, etc.  I've always lived by the philosophy if it doesn't work out you can always sell it and get something else....so with that in mind I spoke with Doug Oade and decided to agree with him and get the Concert Mod he recommended and bought new.  I need a deck for next weekend and have been out of the game with malfunctioning gear so long, I don't even want to go through a listening test right now.  I'll evaluate it as I use it....that's always been my motto.  But I always like to hear some people fluffing to give me a little confidence.

Well congratulations then!  Hell that only put what $2400 net into your pocket!  That's a hella lots of extra money for some nice lights and a pre-amp that doesn't work with your mics! 

Oooh, man that's two Oade Concert Mods in a day.  Niiiiice.  Go get 'em guys!

[F0CKER]

Well congratulations then!  Hell that only put what $2400 net into your pocket!  That's a hella lots of extra money for some nice lights and a pre-amp that doesn't work with your mics! 

Oooh, man that's two Oade Concert Mods in a day.  Niiiiice.  Go get 'em guys!

That's basically what it boiled down to...I worry abotu sound after the fact...I want a deck that works with my mics consistently first....I'll worry about if the sound is good to my ears later, though I can't imagine I won't like it...I already know I love the SF.

[datbrad]

Dude, Now you can get that bathroom redone!

[F0CKER]

Dude, Now you can get that bathroom redone!

Bathroom is already redone dude, balcony was repaired yesterday....$2500 out of pocket.  Now I've got to install a new sliding glass door then paint and recarpet the entire condo.  Nowhere near done....

Freeing up $2400 and hopefully making complete tapes in the process helps a bit.

[datbrad]

Dude, Now you can get that bathroom redone!

Bathroom is already redone dude, balcony was repaired yesterday....$2500 out of pocket.  Now I've got to install a new sliding glass door then paint and recarpet the entire condo.  Nowhere near done....

Freeing up $2400 and hopefully making complete tapes in the process helps a bit.

Good call on the brand new ACM R44!! When you are listening to some complete Soundfield recordings, it will definately distract you from the work being completed. You are getting professionals to install that door, right?

[F0CKER]

If you consider me and my father professionals, then yes!

Actually, pops knows this stuff inside and out.  I've watched that man build a house single handedly....he can handle a sliding glass door.  He sure knew how to take it out easy enough.  Had that sucker out in about 10 minutes.

Pop was also consulted on the R44 purchase and his exact quote was, "how the fuck should I know?".  Thanks Dad!

We both have our specialties....though I'm not sure what mine is yet.  Maybe it's taping from the mosh pit.

[datbrad]

Mr. Imburgia: "Son, have you got that piece of door trim hammered like I asked?"

Focker: "Well, I've been dipping it in Makers Mark for 30 mins, is that enough?"

[illconditioned]

Apparently the R-44 has the same input circuitry as the R-4 Pro rather than the R-4, which seems to have a reputation for being noisier.  In case you've not seen the specs, then these are the relevant ones for input -

● Analog Input
Ch 1 - 4: XLR/TRS Combo type
XLR type (phantom powered)
TRS type (balanced/unbalanced)
Stereo Built-in Microphones

● Input Impedance
XLR: 4k ohms or greater (balanced)
TRS: 6k ohms or greater (balanced)

● Nominal Input Level
11 steps:+4,-2-,8,-14,-20,-26,-32,-38,-44,-50,-56
(Input Level Knob: Center)
Input Level Knob: negative infinity to +8 dBu

● Maximum Input
+24 dBu (Input Sens Knob: +4dBu)

● Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise
Line output: 0.02% (Input Sens: +4dBu)

● Noise Level
Line Output: -10dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Center)

● Residual Noise Level
Line Output: -103 dBu
(Input Sens: +4dBu, Input Level: Minimum)

● Frequency Response
20Hz - 40kHz (0/-3 dB)

● Dynamic Range
AD: 100 dB
DA: 104 dB

● Phantom Power
48V +/- 4V
8mA per 1 channel (20mA or less for all channels)

One could argue that the R-44 sound would be degraded by the V3, given that it's an extra slew of electronic components in front of it.  In practice I would expect no audible blind-testable difference with or without the V3 on real-world material, but that's not going to be a test I or anyone else is going to run, so it's down to your own gut instinct.

(Are there any line-level-only portable recorders?  It just seems a pity to pay for a set of mic preamps then pay again for another set).

Dudes: Take it apart and show me the *guts*!  I'd love to see *detailed* pics of what is inside.  If you give me enough detail, I can even try to trace the circuit for you.

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*.  Maybe you want "color" on the input, then sure, adding an External pre will do that.  But it will not add any detail or improve SNR.  So, to those who put a V2 in front, save your effort and batteries and go directly in.

  Richard

[F0CKER]

Mr. Imburgia: "Son, have you got that piece of door trim hammered like I asked?"

Focker: "Well, I've been dipping it in Makers Mark for 30 mins, is that enough?"

Makers Mark and nail guns don't mix...I learned that the hard way.

[datbrad]

Is that through 2 fingers, or just one? That just hurts to look at  . Got any shots of your leg break?

[stevetoney]

Holy crap, if that's a real x-ray, I think I'd have been choking the Doc to get the freaking nail out instead of sending your down the hall for pictures!

[F0CKER]

Is that through 2 fingers, or just one? That just hurts to look at  . Got any shots of your leg break?

Spiral fracture....somewhere I do, yeah.

That xray isn't real.  I don't play with nail guns when I'm drinking.  Only when people around me are drinking.

[Ozpeter]

My point about blind tests is that I doubt whether anyone is going to go to the trouble of blind testing the various configurations - to do that properly is a remarkably complex exercise and unless properly done there's little chance of being able to draw a valid conclusion.

So all I can do is to consider the measurements.  I can see no evidence that the R-44's frequency response would noticeably colour the sound of the incoming audio.   "Transparency, warmth, depth, clarity, soundstage" are all subjective terms with no associated measurement criteria - well, ok, transparency could be deemed accuracy (what goes in is what comes out, and the R-44 appears to provide that) - warmth is usually applied to a frequency response that favours lower frequencies compared to higher frequencies, and again, I see nothing in the R-44 response which would provide that.  Clarity - well, perhaps that's upper middle frequency emphasis.  Soundstage - crosstalk, leakage from one channel to another would limit that.  Otherwise thre should be no difference in "soundstage" from one device to another.  It would have to be a pretty poorly designed preamp that didn't keep left and right adequately apart.

Generally if a preamp has a particular sound, I'd avoid it like the plague.  It should be a piece of wire with gain.  These days we are still stuck with the imperfections of loudspeakers and microphones but the rest of the signal chain should, if correctly designed, impart no significant character to the sound passing through it.

I have in mind a possible test of R-44 vs piece of wire...

[digifish_music]

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*. 

  Richard

I have run the MixPre in front of my R44 and it sounded better...but I was recording ambient sounds and the problem I was trying to fix was high-gain hiss. Hiss fixed, customer happy.

But I don't think either the MixPre or R44 has a 'sound'. Certainly not in comparison to mics and mic placement. But I know a lot of folks around here do, so that puts my comments in context

In my experience we are exposed to so many tonal colorations and we adapt to them quite quickly. For me, the minute colorations associated with mic preamp designs pales into insignificance compared to mics, placement and source. Even moving your head 2 feet back from your monitors can easily make 6 dB changes in parts of the frequency spectrum, but we don't seem to care too much about that. The main thing I worry about these days in mic preamps is simply the noise at high gain and feature-set. If I need to make the source sound different, I change the mics position, and if I can't do that I change the mics. If that doesn't work I press record anyway and fix it in post    

digifish

[illconditioned]

You're right about the R4: The line input is just a -20dB attenuator added to the mic input.  So, you're right, adding an external pre *can only make it sound worse*. 

  Richard

I have run the MixPre in front of my R44 and it sounded better...but I was recording ambient sounds and the problem I was trying to fix was high-gain hiss. Hiss fixed, customer happy.

But I don't think either the MixPre or R44 has a 'sound'. Certainly not in comparison to mics and mic placement. But I know a lot of folks around here do, so that puts my comments in context

In my experience we are exposed to so many tonal colorations and we adapt to them quite quickly. For me, the minute colorations associated with mic preamp designs pales into insignificance compared to mics, placement and source. Even moving your head 2 feet back from your monitors can easily make 6 dB changes in parts of the frequency spectrum, but we don't seem to care too much about that. The main thing I worry about these days in mic preamps is simply the noise at high gain and feature-set. If I need to make the source sound different, I change the mics position, and if I can't do that I change the mics. If that doesn't work I press record anyway and fix it in post    

digifish

OK, two good points here:

1. yes, I forgot that an external pre may add (noiseless) gain.  For quieter material this will help.  I just don't see putting anything in front of the R4 when you're recording rock and roll I guess.

2. yes, mics make the most difference.  So, don't put anything in front of the R4, just get a better set of mics, lol.

  Richard

[carlbeck]

Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.

[F0CKER]

Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.

I'll report back after the trial run with the Soundfield after labor day weekend.  I'm actually very fired up for the change....and the possibility that I might have a fully functional rig.  What a privelage.

BTW, this was the email I got From Doug Oade re: the R44

"The R44 is designed like a lot of pro gear, that is its gain structure is very adjustable so it is able to take mic thru line level via a single input without a PAD. With the input gain set to +4dB, it accepts a line level input with plenty of headroom and a wide dynamic range"


I'm looking forward to toying around with this thing next Tuesday.

[stevetoney]

Generally if a preamp has a particular sound, I'd avoid it like the plague.  It should be a piece of wire with gain.  These days we are still stuck with the imperfections of loudspeakers and microphones but the rest of the signal chain should, if correctly designed, impart no significant character to the sound passing through it.

I understand your statement, but it doesn't reflect how I think most on this list look at these components.  Every preamp has its own character that can't be measured on the meter, but it can sure be heard with your ears.  We talk about it here ad-infinitum and many purposefully buy a preamp because of a particular sound characteristic.  When assessing a preamp, people talk in terms of those characteristics. 

I understand you though...your definition of 'good' is just different.  You expect your preamp to pass a signal without any coloration whatsoever.

I would add a thought that just because a V3 might sound different than a mini-MP doesn't make it better or worse, just different. 

[Ozpeter]

your definition of 'good' is just different.

Indeed - I like white and others like something else - luckily we are pretty spoiled for choice these days.   I guess I go for 'vanilla' being of the generation that made its first battery portable recordings on something that had valves - and a battery which lasted about 7 minutes.  That was not actually a problem as the tape ran out after only 5 minutes anyway.  Severe colouration of the sound was something that seemed impossible to cure in those days!

[F0CKER]

I choose my preamps because of the characteristics they add, same with my mics, and A>D.  I don't think there's a truly uncolored rig in existence today - correct me if I'm wrong on that.  The audio signal is going to be affected by the eclectronics in some capacity....go for what sounds good to your ears and your playback setup.

[nottingham]

 

[carlbeck]

Honestly I haven't paid any attention to the R44 but if there was a line in as well as CF card this could be a bomber deck. I am curious to hear what you guys think once you run your external pre-amps in front of these Oade mod boxes.

I'll report back after the trial run with the Soundfield after labor day weekend.  I'm actually very fired up for the change....and the possibility that I might have a fully functional rig.  What a privelage.

BTW, this was the email I got From Doug Oade re: the R44

"The R44 is designed like a lot of pro gear, that is its gain structure is very adjustable so it is able to take mic thru line level via a single input without a PAD. With the input gain set to +4dB, it accepts a line level input with plenty of headroom and a wide dynamic range"


I'm looking forward to toying around with this thing next Tuesday.

Hmmmm, so according to Doug, I could run my pre-amp into the R44 & get minimal R44 coloration? Also the smaller sensitivity knobs are digital? How do they affect the sound I wonder? I would need to use those as my Aeta would act like a PSP2 with fixed gain (well gain adjustable in 6db steps only) when running all four channels as a trim I imagine.

[datbrad]

I thought the R44's gain controls were all analog, but I may be wrong. In general, I have always looked at mic preamps as a method to decouple the gain for the mic from the recorder, to feed the recorder a clean line level signal without trying to boost a mic's output of quiet material, or harness a mic's output of loud material, using just the recorder's single set of gain controls. However, the R44 has the ability to control preamp gain like an outboard pre with the outside knob controls, and trim the levels from there. To my thinking, this makes the ACM R44 a decent choice for an all in one 4 channel, just like the FR2LE is as a 2 channel box.

[F0CKER]

So am I reading this accurately, the sensitivity controls, i.e. inner knobs are analog, and the trim controls, i.e. outer knob are digital gain?

[carlbeck]

So am I reading this accurately, the sensitivity controls, i.e. inner knobs are analog, and the trim controls, i.e. outer knob are digital gain?

I don't really know, I thought it was reversed?

[F0CKER]

I'm confused....I probably need to see the deck first.  We can agree, though, one gain controls the analog gain, and another controls digital gain, correct?

[carlbeck]

I'm confused....I probably need to see the deck first.  We can agree, though, one gain controls the analog gain, and another controls digital gain, correct?

I am not so sure, I tried to download the manual but couldn't. Here is what I read in the Team R-44 thread:


***

 
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2008, 08:11:56 PM »
 
 
how can you tell if clipping is about to happen at the "sensitivity" stage??
You have to record with the inner continuously variable knob (digital gain) at 'noon' and the meters will then be your guide to preamp level.
   

[kirk97132]

Not to seem like a wise ass, although maybe I am but when I was considering buying an R-44 I looked at these first
R-44 in recorders:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,97214.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103270.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.0/all.html

Team R-44
 http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.0.html

That will answer all your questions in stead of speculating what knob does what when and how much.  Oh yeah I did buy one and I run a Edirol UA-5 BM2p+ and a Sound Devices MP-2 in front of it, Kirk

[F0CKER]

Sorry for asking the question somebody probably knows the answert o and can tell me quickly vs reading through 25 pages of threads to get to my answer.  I read most of those thread, BTW....they were helpful.

I'll take the long windy road next time.

thanks for your help!

[carlbeck]

Sorry for asking the question somebody probably knows the answert o and can tell me quickly vs reading through 25 pages of threads to get to my answer.  I read most of those thread, BTW....they were helpful.

I'll take the long windy road next time.

thanks for your help!

Yep you wouldn't think this would be so hard to figure out, Plus T to ya Focker.

[carlbeck]

OK, from Ozpeter who seems to know his shit regarding this unit with the various testing he has done, page 4 in R-44 PTII:

Meanwhile I've had some helpful info from Edirol in Japan.

Firstly, the continuous level knob - the inner one - operates in the digital domain.  The stepped outer one (preamp sensitivity or trim) is analogue.  In other words, the block diagram is correct in that respect.  Therefore, if R-44 recordings are going to be post-produced in a DAW later, there's not much point in using other than the stepped control, and leave the variable one at the noon position.  In a totally ideal world, a numeric indication of the position of the continuous control would have been handy, like the one that pops up when you change the preamp sensitivity, so that you could be sure you had it dead on zero, but in the real world I'm personally not going to lose sleep over that.

Secondly, the limiter is essentially digital, but engaging it drops the analogue level by 12dB, before the AD converter.  That loss of gain is made up after the digital limiter in the digital domain.  My own comment on that is that logically, you would achieve the same result by clicking the preamp sensitivity knobs downwards twice (if you were not already too near the lowest setting) and do your own makeup digitally in your DAW.  Again, it very much depends on how you are working and whether you want monitoring level maximised, and whether your level setup was set such that digital clipping might be a risk.

[F0CKER]

That's what I wanted to know.  +T's all around.

[Ozpeter]

I guess we are going back over the ground a bit here, but with several long threads to plough through that's likely to happen! 

If you good people are considering the R-44 - which I love to bits - there's one downside which does affect my use of it, and that's lack of properly mixed monitoring.  When recording, you can't vary per channel the level and pan of each of the four into the headphones.  Each channel can be heard on its own in mono, or you can hear the first pair in stereo, or the second pair in stereo, or all in mono.   You can vary the channel levels on playback - there's a menu screen with four individual faders, though it doesn't work when recording - but again, you can't control pan.

So say you were recording a vocal quartet standing in a line, and you had a mic for each of them, you would not be able to have channel one hard left, channel two slightly left, channel three slightly right, and channel four hard right in the headphones.  It would come up as one left, two right, three left, four right, or you'd have to use mono.  Or if  you want to use a stereo pair plus a spot, the spot will always come up on the left side as there's no way to have stereo on one and two plus channel three on the right (or centre).

So if you need that kind of monitoring, you have to use a separate monitor mixer, which is a pity - and there's currently a surprising lack of suitable small 4-lines-into-two mixers on the market.  But if you just want to check that you've got a problem-free sound in each channel, and you don't need a balanced playback till you get home, it's fine.

[digifish_music]

Not to seem like a wise ass, although maybe I am but when I was considering buying an R-44 I looked at these first
...  Oh yeah I did buy one and I run a Edirol UA-5 BM2p+ and a Sound Devices MP-2 in front of it, Kirk

It's good to be wise +T

BTW: What are you recording?

digifish

[illconditioned]

I guess we are going back over the ground a bit here, but with several long threads to plough through that's likely to happen! 

If you good people are considering the R-44 - which I love to bits - there's one downside which does affect my use of it, and that's lack of properly mixed monitoring.  When recording, you can't vary per channel the level and pan of each of the four into the headphones.  Each channel can be heard on its own in mono, or you can hear the first pair in stereo, or the second pair in stereo, or all in mono.   You can vary the channel levels on playback - there's a menu screen with four individual faders, though it doesn't work when recording - but again, you can't control pan.

Yes, it would be great to hear a mix of the show as you record, but hearing each channel alone is probably sufficient for most people.  You can hear if any individual channel is clipping or distorting, which is the main thing.

  Richard

[F0CKER]

That won't be an issue for me, but good to know regardless.  Cheers!

[BayTaynt3d]

I basically leave the inner at midnight (zero) and only use the outer. And interestingly, I thought I would be bummed about the stepping, but after using it, I actually like the known-quantity in stepping, it helps reverse a mid-show move easily in my DAW. Basically, if I'm forced to jump it up/down, all I have to do is remember the rough timecode of the change. Then once home, I just find that timecode in my DAW and add a volume envelope (aka level automation) and bump it or drop it by an even 6 db -- done, and near-perfect reversal at that! BTW, the unit is amazing, and that's all I have to say on the matter. It's really the unit I always wanted when I ran a stock R4 for two years. Thank you Edirol!

[BayTaynt3d]

One more thing for anyone who actually uses the inner knob, watch out for lowering/attenuating with the inner knob! I believe it is technically possible (I've been meaning to test this, and I think this would prove the inner knob is digital and outer is analog) if you have the inner knob turned to the left to brick the signal without the clipping lights lighting up on the right. So, if you are going to use the inner knob, I think I'd stick with only using it to add digital gain, not to attenuate digitally (personally I see no good reason to even touch the knob at all except to make sure it's at zero).

[Ozpeter]

I believe it is technically possible (I've been meaning to test this, and I think this would prove the inner knob is digital and outer is analog) if you have the inner knob turned to the left to brick the signal without the clipping lights lighting up on the right.

Indeed, and that's how it is with many such devices.  However, the R-44 usefully has a clip light to the left of the meter indicating analog preamp clip, so there's no excuse for getting it wrong (except you have to keep watching the meter - pity it doesn't lock on).

[kirk97132]

Not to seem like a wise ass, although maybe I am but when I was considering buying an R-44 I looked at these first
...  Oh yeah I did buy one and I run a Edirol UA-5 BM2p+ and a Sound Devices MP-2 in front of it, Kirk

It's good to be wise +T

BTW: What are you recording?

digifish

did Papa Grows Funk courtesy of a Louie hook-up with the band.  Just recorded a bunch of bands at the Bite Of Portland a couple of weeks ago.  I am one of the archivists for Jerry Joseph too.  And recorded five bands at a small festival in Bend Or last weekend, kinda jam band type stuff.  Actually had my first paying gig recording at the Bite.  The Jerry Gracia Birthday Band paid me to push the record button! I was already set up recording bands before and after them so I look at it as I got $50 to push a button.   

[nottingham]

FWIW, I just recorded a test with a Transcend 16GB class 6 card at 24-44.1-stereoX2 to capacity with no problems.

[leehookem]

FWIW, I just recorded a test with a Transcend 16GB class 6 card at 24-44.1-stereoX2 to capacity with no problems.

Can you try out 24/48 stereoX2 for me sometime soon?

[nottingham]

Can you try out 24/48 stereoX2 for me sometime soon?

I'm doing it right now, I'll let you know.

[nottingham]

Can you try out 24/48 stereoX2 for me sometime soon?

No problem with the 16gb transcend class 6 SDHC at 24-48 sterero x2 ran until unit shut off all files intact.

Ron

[Ozpeter]

Maybe we should now revert to http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.60.html which has a more relevant title for R-44 discussions?

Or not, whatever...

[leehookem]

Can you try out 24/48 stereoX2 for me sometime soon?

No problem with the 16gb transcend class 6 SDHC at 24-48 sterero x2 ran until unit shut off all files intact.

Ron

have you looked at the wave file at all to see if there were any abnormalities?

[kskreider]

For me, the only time I had problems with the cards cf or sd is when I took them out of the device and used a card reader. As far as I know right now the R-44 only can be used with a 8gb card.

This is simply WRONG.  I use the PNY 16GB Class 4 cards without problems.  2 x stereo 24/48 and 1 x stereo 24/96.  If someone wants to swing it like a cowboy go buy one of the 32GB PNY cards from Costco's site and try that.  They are only $120 compared to the 16GB's $70.

[kirk97132]

Maybe we should now revert to http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,107018.60.html which has a more relevant title for R-44 discussions?

Or not, whatever...

or here where a shitload of cards are discussed:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,106140.0/all.html