Topic: Sony PCM-M10 or the Olympus LS-11

[MikeMannZ]

First off I gotta say killer info on the m10 provided here.  Great samples, pictures, and charts.  There doesn't seem to be any in depth threads on the ls-11.  Wingfieldaudio considers the ls11 a better machine.  Does it come close to the m10?  Which recorder would you choose?  I can get a brand new ls-11 for 300.  I would basically be using the internal mics for capturing song ideas at rehearsals, although I would take it out into the field as well.  I would like to get the best low end response posssible.

Thanks
Mike 

[jboyzh]

I'm wondering as well... Seems the M10 has about the same noise floor according to http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm and theatreofnoise.com . wingfieldaudio.com and -while in german- audiotranskription.de also post some interesting samples where you can compare the two.

From my personal experience with the LS-10 and now LS-11, I can say that the LS-11 also delivers where the LS-10 somewhat failed: low frequencies, so no more bass roll off which makes it now a fully great sounding and well built recorder for music, nature, and speech.

I have no M10 at hand, but listening to the sound samples on the above sites, the LS-11 seems to have slightly better clarity when recording from the internal mics than the M10 imo.

Personally, I prefer the LS-11 design and features over the M10. It would, however, be interesting to have more comparisons between these two regarding recording quality.

[MikeMannZ]

I spoke with Olympus a few days ago and they claim that the only changes on the LS-11 were increase battery time and internal memory.  The tech claimed nothing was done internally to alter recording behavior.  do you have a sample recording of a live band that illustrate the improved bass response? 

[jboyzh]

Frequency range is definitely better now:

Olympus, at least here in Switzerland, clearly states "Verbesserung des Frequenzverlaufs"= "improvement of frequency range" on the LS-11 site (Google Translation, second last point: http://bit.ly/diK2a5 ).

Then, you can hear it in the sound examples of both LS-10 and LS-11 side by side (forest, train station, choir, speech) on
http://audiotranskription.de/vergleichstest-digitaler-rekorder.htm

[guysonic]

Until someone does a real bench test of the LS-11 like I did on the LS-10, I would not say the MIC input's lack of bass has been corrected. 
The LINE input on the LS-10 was indeed 20 cycles to 44K, and assume same for LS-11 as published specs seem to indicate.

See: http://www.sonicstudios.com/ls10revw.htm

[Ozpeter]

If we're looking at the internal mics, the difference is perhaps between the Olympus cardioid mics (I assume that's what they are??) and the Sony omni mics (I believe no other mainstream portable recorder uses omnis).  You either prefer one or the other.  Personally I prefer the Sony sound to be post-processed as I described in the main M10 thread.

There does seem to be a high level of user satisfaction with the M10.

[chrise]

Some nice things about the PCM-M10 are:

- 5 second prerecord buffer

- Ridiculously long battery life

I've had mine about 3 weeks and used it most days.  With the supplied AAs, the battery meter is only now dipping below "full"...

[MikeMannZ]

If we're looking at the internal mics, the difference is perhaps between the Olympus cardioid mics (I assume that's what they are??) and the Sony omni mics (I believe no other mainstream portable recorder uses omnis).  You either prefer one or the other.  Personally I prefer the Sony sound to be post-processed as I described in the main M10 thread.

So excuse my newbie-ness, and I'm a drummer too (please hold all jokes...thank you).  I spoke with a nice fella Chris at the sound professional and he mentioned that typically cardioids do not have as much bass response as omni's.  He thought that I would not like the Olympus line based on this.  So am I correct in understanding that the Sony may capture more bass, but need a bit of post processing in order to bring it out?  Is it a more flatter wider response than cardioid?  Everything that I've listened to in the m10 string I've really liked.  I'll have to go back and notice if people processed their uploaded files. 

Mike

[fmaderjr]

I heard an orchestral recording with the LS-10 and it was mediocre sounding at best. The M10 internals are much better and won't distort up to 124 dB, which is very good for internals. Ozpeter did not mean he favors post processing to bring out the bass-he means that he likes to use it to widen the stereo spread (which may or may not be important to you).

[MikeMannZ]

I heard an orchestral recording with the LS-10 and it was mediocre sounding at best. The M10 internals are much better and won't distort up to 124 dB, which is very good for internals. Ozpeter did not mean he favors post processing to bring out the bass-he mean that he like to use it to widen the stereo spread (which may or may not be important to you).

Everything that I've heard from either unit...to me has sounded a bit thin.  I think both the 10 and 11 do a great just at representing the highs and mids, but lack in the lows.  I wouldn't be looking to widen the stereo spread necessarily, but certainly wouldn't be opposed to doing it.  I was just hoping to get a really good recording without having to muck with every tune, every time.

Mike

[chrise]

To get a really good recording, you probably need to use external mics.

(which will show what these recorders are really capable of).

[MikeMannZ]

To get a really good recording, you probably need to use external mics.

(which will show what these recorders are really capable of).

Which I do plan on doing, but I do want the unit to function well on it's own as well. 

[jboyzh]

I'm not a technical person, so can't provide frequency courves. But what I can say from the LS-10 and the LS-11, first hand, is this:

- Sound of the LS-10 was thin, good for speech, music had to be equalized.
- Sound of the LS-11 is full and has wonderful bass, but is also nice in the highs, both from internal mics, and mic-in. speech is clear and deep, music doesn't have to be post processed. It's the deciding difference to the LS-10. But I understand if you don't believe, and wait until somebody can provide the graphs to prove... it's just my ears :-)

Some more points on the LS-11:
- Oly uses AA instead of AAA of the Sony. I have more of them.
- Oly uses SDHC instead of microSD. Dito.
- Battery life of the LS-11 is more than good enough. The M10 has some more hours. I don't care.
- LS-11 is lighter and I prefer the form factor to the M10.
- Startup time is short: 2 sec with 8GB internal RAM and 4 GB SDHC.

As I already have an LS-11 and being completely happy with, also for music, I'd need a good reason (improvement in sound quality) to also buy an M10.

Maybe I should get one just to compare... Does anybody have the two?

[fmaderjr]

Some more points on the LS-11:
- Oly uses AA instead of AAA of the Sony. I have more of them.

What gave you that idea? The Sony uses AA's as well. It would never get the battery life it is capable of with AAA's.

[jboyzh]

Oops, I stand corrected with the batteries. sorry for that one...

[MikeMannZ]

I'm not a technical person, so can't provide frequency courves. But what I can say from the LS-10 and the LS-11, first hand, is this:

- Sound of the LS-10 was thin, good for speech, music had to be equalized.
- Sound of the LS-11 is full and has wonderful bass, but is also nice in the highs, both from internal mics, and mic-in. speech is clear and deep, music doesn't have to be post processed. It's the deciding difference to the LS-10. But I understand if you don't believe, and wait until somebody can provide the graphs to prove... it's just my ears :-)

I guess it's just hard for me to accept Olympus as a pro audio company.  There are a ton of audiophiles here and not a whole lot about the ls-11.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like it's an option for most serious recorders.

[Ozpeter]

The M10 mics tend to cause mid to low frequencies to "clump" in the middle - it cannot produce a stereo image of those frequencies as the mics are omnidirectional down there (thus the angle of the mics in the recorder casing makes no difference) and the spacing between them isn't enough to produce a image based on time-of-arrival clues for the ear.  At higher frequencies, the mics are more cardioid and thus there's more of a stereo image up there.  Personally I'll be routinely post-processing my M10 recordings along the lines I've posted with samples in the other thread.

All of which doesn't really help with comparing with the LS-11 as I haven't got one!

I suspect that almost any of these small recorders' built-in-mic recordings would sound better with a bit of post production.

[MikeMannZ]

The M10 mics tend to cause mid to low frequencies to "clump" in the middle - it cannot produce a stereo image of those frequencies as the mics are omnidirectional down there (thus the angle of the mics in the recorder casing makes no difference) and the spacing between them isn't enough to produce a image based on time-of-arrival clues for the ear.  At higher frequencies, the mics are more cardioid and thus there's more of a stereo image up there.  Personally I'll be routinely post-processing my M10 recordings along the lines I've posted with samples in the other thread.

All of which doesn't really help with comparing with the LS-11 as I haven't got one!

I suspect that almost any of these small recorders' built-in-mic recordings would sound better with a bit of post production.

I'm actually OK with mid to low frequencies to "clumped" in the middle as long as there present and accounted for.  If I ever want to achieve better stereo separation I'll use better microphones.  I guess I'm just mainly concerned with good bass response and a solid reliable recorder which is sounding more an more like the m10.   

[jboyzh]

I guess it's just hard for me to accept Olympus as a pro audio company.  There are a ton of audiophiles here and not a whole lot about the ls-11.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like it's an option for most serious recorders.

Olympus is strong in other sectors (medical stuff, optics...), right, but not having a name in pro audio doesn't mean they're not capable of building something that delivers in this sector as well.

If tons of audiophiles would come up with good arguments against the LS-11, I'd probably have to agree, but as long as the arguments simply are missing, I keep trusting my own ears, which are not too shabby either.

My actual view from all I've read, and heard, is that the M10 and the LS-11 are much closer sound wise than what this forums post count would make me believe.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

My actual view from all I've read, and heard, is that the M10 and the LS-11 are much closer sound wise than what this forums post count would make me believe.

Good sounding internal mics are neat, but not important to a lot of us here.

I'm sure a lot of us are waiting for an actual live source comp with great mics and a great pre-amp.   A comp with the v3's a/d is excellent because it solves a lot of problems that come up with other comps, and a lot of us are familiar with it.

[rjp]

I have an LS-10, and I feel they missed the mark with the internal mics - they definitely need a bass boost in post. If the LS-11 really fixes that, great - but if I run out and buy a new recorder, it's probably going to be something that provides P48 and XLR mic inputs like a PMD-661.

Considering guysonic's report of the bass rolloff on the LS-10 mic-in, my pair of SP-TFB-2 binaurals must be obnoxiously bass-heavy with a flat-response input. With the LS-10, however, they sound just right (provided I take care to avoid the EMI from the display, but that's a different rant). Maybe my ears have just the right shape for the mics. I haven't managed to test another LS-10 to see if the EMI problem is unique to my recorder or not.

When I first used the SP-TFB-2 mics, I was using the same EQ that I used for the internals. I didn't realize that was a bad idea until I switched my main listening headphones from Grado SR-60 to Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro/80. Then I realized that the bass boost was a really bad idea, especially with pipe organs. I went back and remastered the recording without the EQ, and the problem was solved.

I'd love to try the LS-10 with a Littlebox preamp. I've used my E-MU 0404 USB audio interface as an impromptu analog preamp with a set of AKG Perception 170 cardioids and the line input, and the sound is great - but a Littlebox would be better from the portability standpoint. A Littlebox with a 1/4"-20 camera mounting stud would rock - I could just attach the LS-10 to it.

[chrise]

I guess it's just hard for me to accept Olympus as a pro audio company.  There are a ton of audiophiles here and not a whole lot about the ls-11.  I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like it's an option for most serious recorders.

Are you specifically searching for LS-11 ?  I have a feeling many people bought the LS-10, which is an excellent piece of kit.  The new LS-11 is similar, and offers little incentive to upgrade, which may partly explain why you don't find much LS-11 stuff on the net. 

If you want to know how the LS-11 might perform in real usage, you may want to search for LS-10, as most of the same applies.  I suspect there's a lot of people out there that like it.

[MikeMannZ]

Olympus is strong in other sectors (medical stuff, optics...), right, but not having a name in pro audio doesn't mean they're not capable of building something that delivers in this sector as well.

If tons of audiophiles would come up with good arguments against the LS-11, I'd probably have to agree, but as long as the arguments simply are missing, I keep trusting my own ears, which are not too shabby either.

My actual view from all I've read, and heard, is that the M10 and the LS-11 are much closer sound wise than what this forums post count would make me believe.

Olympus is a strong company, but this is their first endeavor at a pro audio piece of gear.  Sony has been at the game for years.  I'm not looking for arguments against the LS-11, I'm looking for the better machine of the two.  I was actually hoping someone here would bring a strong case for the Olympus besides the basic features.  My personal opinion from listening to samples from both units is that the Sony and Olympus sound very different.  How couldn't they?  The use different microphones.

Good sounding internal mics are neat, but not important to a lot of us here.

I'm sure a lot of us are waiting for an actual live source comp with great mics and a great pre-amp.   A comp with the v3's a/d is excellent because it solves a lot of problems that come up with other comps, and a lot of us are familiar with it.

If you call Sony or Olympus and ask them what was their target market with both of these products (which I did) the answer....Musicians.  A musician like myself is always going to be interested in the best sound quality from the unit as a stand alone device.  Most musicians already have way to much to carry around.  Being able to get a quality recording by pulling out the recorder and hitting rec is going to make the difference between buying one unit or another.  Do I have an interest in bringing this out into the field for recording other bands?  Definitely !, But first and foremost I want it to work well just as a standalone unit.

Are you specifically searching for LS-11 ?  I have a feeling many people bought the LS-10, which is an excellent piece of kit.  The new LS-11 is similar, and offers little incentive to upgrade, which may partly explain why you don't find much LS-11 stuff on the net. 

If you want to know how the LS-11 might perform in real usage, you may want to search for LS-10, as most of the same applies.  I suspect there's a lot of people out there that like it.

I've searched for ls10 and 11.  There is a lot of examples and reviews on the net for the 10.  The 11 not so much.  One repeating comment is the thinness of the sound.  I know there are tons of folks that are very happy with their Olympus, I just think that it may not have anything on the Sony.  I really believe after reading multiple theads here that the Sony is a better machine and I actually think most people would opt for the Sony.

Mike

[fmaderjr]

I know there are tons of folks that are very happy with their Olympus, I just think that it may not have anything on the Sony.  I really believe after reading multiple theads here that the Sony is a better machine and I actually think most people would opt for the Sony.

I agree 100%. I think from all that's been written that it should be fairly obvious to anyone that the M10 is a better machine than the LS-10 and almost surely will be proven to be a better machine than the LS-11. In addition it costs significantly less than the LS-11. That's not to say that someone with an LS-10 or LS-11 will be unhappy with it, but if I were buying one now, I wouldn't even consider the Olympus machines.

[earmonger]

Using the PCM-M10, I recorded a rock band rehearsing in a small rehearsal room with the internal mics, probably about 110dB (or higher).  Bass, drums and everything else are clear and present, and there's a nice physical thud from the bass drum.

If you saved the extra $100 you'd spend for the LS-11 you'd be on your way to getting a nice pair of external mics, too.

Cardioids are directional, and inexpensive ones do lack bass. Omnis are...omni. If your band rehearses all facing in one direction, like a stage setup,  cardioids will work for you, but if you are set up in a small room facing one another, directional mics are going to change the mix. 

That said, I find Wingfield Audio very trustworthy, and their very high rating of the LS-11 is something to consider. If you listen to the noise-floor recordings at

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples

the Sony sounds a little more natural to me (and quieter), while the LS-11 emphasizes the mids a bit more.  But they both sound good just for speech.

[MikeMannZ]

Using the PCM-M10, I recorded a rock band rehearsing in a small rehearsal room with the internal mics, probably about 110dB (or higher).  Bass, drums and everything else are clear and present, and there's a nice physical thud from the bass drum.

If you saved the extra $100 you'd spend for the LS-11 you'd be on your way to getting a nice pair of external mics, too.

Cardioids are directional, and inexpensive ones do lack bass. Omnis are...omni. If your band rehearses all facing in one direction, like a stage setup,  cardioids will work for you, but if you are set up in a small room facing one another, directional mics are going to change the mix. 

That said, I find Wingfield Audio very trustworthy, and their very high rating of the LS-11 is something to consider. If you listen to the noise-floor recordings at

http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-noise.html#samples

the Sony sounds a little more natural to me (and quieter), while the LS-11 emphasizes the mids a bit more.  But they both sound good just for speech.

Thanks for the info on the M10.  I've spent many hours at wingfieldaudio and I agree with you on the noise floor.  Here's the thing.  The whole reason I started looking at the LS-11 is because I can get it for 300 (US dollars).  So the sony is a bit less...274.00.

Mike

[fmaderjr]

I don't get the value of the Wingfield audio test for those of us who record music and don't care much about recording speach. I wouldn't waste 5 minutes comparing mics on it. I'd rather hear samples and other tapers' opinions of these mics recording music, particularly loud music.

[MikeMannZ]

I don't get the value of the Wingfield audio test for those of us who record music and don't care much about recording speach. I wouldn't waste 5 minutes comparing mics on it. I'd rather hear samples and other tapers' opinions of these mics recording music, particularly loud music.

agreed

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I don't get the value of the Wingfield audio test for those of us who record music and don't care much about recording speach.

And on top of that, their methodology is poor.  As an example, they don't even disclose the gain settings.

And those other tests where they compare recorders with the gain set at max?  Those are a huge joke.

[Ozpeter]

And on top of that, their methodology is poor.  As an example, they don't even disclose the gain settings.

And those other tests where they compare recorders with the gain set at max?  Those are a huge joke.

Formal noise tests are usually made with max gain.  With most preamp designs, full gain is where you get the best signal to noise ratio.  That seems to run counter to our everyday experience, because when you turn up the gain of a preamp, you hear the most noise.  But for each dB of gain you add, you'll add more gain than noise.  So, in crude terms, if you measure S/N with gain half way up, then with the gain full up, you'll hear (say) twice as much noise at full gain, but the actual signal will be (say) 2.5 times louder - a better signal to noise ratio.

[earmonger]

I don't get the value of the Wingfield audio test for those of us who record music and don't care much about recording speach. I wouldn't waste 5 minutes comparing mics on it. I'd rather hear samples and other tapers' opinions of these mics recording music, particularly loud music.

Me too, which is why I pointed out that those tests are "just for speech."

There are samples here:

http://www.frequencycast.co.uk/olympusrecorders.html

But they don't say if they're LS-10 or LS-11.

The reviewer also says:

"The frequency response of the built-in microphones does not go any lower than 70 Hertz on the LS-10 and 60 Hertz on the LS-11."

[jboyzh]

Just some updates:

Price: Here in Switzerland, the lowest prices for the LS-11 and the M10 are about the same.

Noise floor: wingfieldaudio - even if they are mostly about speech, there has been made the point in this thread that the LS-11 sounded less quiet than the M10 in their samples - just updated the noise floor samples, where the LS-11 now is quieter than before.

LS-11 to LS-10 bass improvement, now found officially confirmed by Olympus: "With the LS-11, the frequency response has been extended to lower frequencies, delivering richer and more powerful bass and mid-tones."
Source, complete with graph comparing LS-10 to LS-11:
http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/voice_recorders/linear_pcm/ls11/

[earmonger]

That frequency-response graph shows a pretty steep bass roll-off below 100 Hz. 100 Hz is slightly sharper than the A-flat an octave-and-a-fraction below middle C.

Remember, the lowest note on a piano is 27.5 Hz.  With either microphone, that's coming in at -25dB, pretty meager.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Then again, we haven't seen similar graphs at all for the PCM-M10 mics.

[MikeMannZ]

Sony PCM-M10 ordered    I could research this forever.  I had to bite the bullet.  I think it gives me the most options.

Thanks everyone....I'll post up some tunes of my band as soon as I get it.

[jboyzh]

And here you can download the official Sony mic graph for the m10 ... pretty nice at 0 degrees but not going below 40Hz, though:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-audio/cat-recorders/product-PCMM10%2FB/ > Resources > Download, or direct link: http://bit.ly/aN318I

[chrise]

Source, complete with graph comparing LS-10 to LS-11:
http://asia.olympus-imaging.com/products/voice_recorders/linear_pcm/ls11/

That appears to relate to built in mics.  Obviously some mics will pick up more bass than others, and the internal mics on these units must involve some element of compromise.

HOWEVER, as I understand it, critically, the LS-10 applies a non-defeatable bass cut to the *external mic input*, so no matter what mic you connect, you lose bass.  I'm some situations this may be acceptable, or even  desirable.  But you don't get the choice.  This has been described by Guysonic - see: http://www.sonicstudios.com/ls10revw.htm

Fraid I'm still unclear whether the LS-11 mic input is similarly affected.

[MikeMannZ]

So 1st impressions...

Easy navigation
Fast start up
User friendly
really nice design overall

The plastic-ness of this unit is it's downfall.  I'll be surprised if the battery door stays on it's cheap plastic hinges.  At least you can load the memory card and never touch it again, that door would surely break after multiple uses.  One fall and this thing is done.  The edirol seems much tuffer. 

Aside from that I'm looking forward to trying it out and seeing how it performs.

[Ozpeter]

The manual actually specifies how to refit the battery door should it come off if dropped - in other words, it seems to be designed to detach rather than break.

Obviously accidents can happen, but personally I'd always handle anything small and expensive with some care!

And these days, plastics are (or can be) remarkably tough - for all I know, they've used polycarbonate same as the visors in motorbike crash helmets.

[fmaderjr]

So 1st impressions...
Easy navigation
Fast start up
User friendly
really nice design overall

Love the MR-10, but see if you think start up is quick after you put a 16 GB card in there.

Doesn't bother me though. I never record anything spur of the moment. I think for those who do, you can carry it around in record pause and it automatically goes into a power saving mode in a few minutes and instantly comes back to life when you need to record.

I agree with everything else. Love the large display too. Is very easy to see where your levels are peaking.

[chrise]

I never record anything spur of the moment. I think for those who do, you can carry it around in record pause and it automatically goes into a power saving mode in a few minutes and instantly comes back to life when you need to record.

Haven't tried leaving the PCM-M10 in record-pause.  However, I notice it goes to "sleep" if simply left powered on in stop mode.  And yes, wake up takes (I think) less than a second.

I haven't tried a big card yet - will be interesting to see if this significantly delays the wake-up time.

[fmaderjr]

Then there is no advantage to trying to put it to sleep when in record pause. It is in stop mode when it comes out of it anyway. But you can still start recording very quickly.

Great little machine.

[chrise]

Right - I see what you mean.

Basically, when out recording, I've just been letting it go to sleep, so it's ready to start very quickly (under one second).

Which is nice. 

And, a helluva lot faster than my MicroTrack (v1) which took at least 20 seconds to get ready to record...

[illconditioned]

So 1st impressions...
Easy navigation
Fast start up
User friendly
really nice design overall

Love the MR-10, but see if you think start up is quick after you put a 16 GB card in there.

Doesn't bother me though. I never record anything spur of the moment. I think for those who do, you can carry it around in record pause and it automatically goes into a power saving mode in a few minutes and instantly comes back to life when you need to record.

I agree with everything else. Love the large display too. Is very easy to see where your levels are peaking.

Yeah, two things I love about this unit.  One is it is just "always on".  Hit record and you're good to go.  The second thing is the level lights.  For ambient I use low sens, for (amplified) music I use -20dB setting.  Set the dial to about half way, then use the green/red lights for realtime setting of levels.

The only complaint I've got about this unit so far is the level controls aren't really linear (in dB levels).  In particular, I noted that there is very little gain change above level #7/10 or so.  Aside from that I have no complaints.  This is my go to rig!

  Richard

[jb63]

I see now that the LS-11 has taken the plunge to match the M10 price:

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-LS-11-Linear-Recorder/dp/B002RDWL9Q/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_0#moreAboutThisProduct

[stancourtney]

On January 26, 2010 I bought the Olympus LS-11.  This week I received a refund check in full.

The LS-11 in mp3 or wma mode (even when using a 32 gb sdhc card) has a limit of 4 gb recording per session.  I bought the unit wanting to do extended length ambient nature recording. According to the chart in the LS-11 users guide it could record over a 1,000 hrs using the 32 gb. sdhc card.

Short story - in continuous mode the unit is limited to one file of 4 gb size.  After complaining since February that the unit was not working properly, the head office in Japan stated they would not change the firmware to allow the recorder to fill up the sdhc card. You must press the button after every 4 gb file.  I explained that was like buying a car with a 10 gal gasoline tank and then stopping every 10 miles to restart the engine.

After waiting almost 3 months for support to solve the problem, they agreed to refund my money which I then quickly bought the Sony PCM-M10 which does almost exactly what the Olympus LS-11 promised to do but failed to follow through on.

Stan Courtney

http://www.stancourtney.com/

[Massive Dynamic]

On January 26, 2010 I bought the Olympus LS-11.  This week I received a refund check in full.

The LS-11 in mp3 or wma mode (even when using a 32 gb sdhc card) has a limit of 4 gb recording per session.  I bought the unit wanting to do extended length ambient nature recording. According to the chart in the LS-11 users guide it could record over a 1,000 hrs using the 32 gb. sdhc card.

Stan Courtney

http://www.stancourtney.com/

Out of curiosity, what is the largest file you have recorded and what software will open that file?

[rjp]

On January 26, 2010 I bought the Olympus LS-11.  This week I received a refund check in full.

The LS-11 in mp3 or wma mode (even when using a 32 gb sdhc card) has a limit of 4 gb recording per session.  I bought the unit wanting to do extended length ambient nature recording. According to the chart in the LS-11 users guide it could record over a 1,000 hrs using the 32 gb. sdhc card.

Short story - in continuous mode the unit is limited to one file of 4 gb size.

Odd. I have an LS-10, but I always record to WAV. With the latest firmware installed, it will seamlessly auto-split WAV files at 2 GB (the normal limit for WAV files).

As for your 4 GB limit, that is quite likely a FAT32 limitation - but I'm surprised that it won't autosplit in MP3 or WMA. Maybe it's not feasible to do so with a lossy codec.

[fmaderjr]

You've peaked my curiosity. I'm wondering what battery system you were going to use that would power it for 100 hours let alone 1000. It sound like you probably wouldn't be where you could use the wall wart.

[stancourtney]

Using the SD722 or H-2 or M-10 they seamlessly auto-split the files at 2 GB or 4 GB. I may have to use Cool MP3 splitter to allow Cool Edit to fully load the file.

Again, this issue is not with WAV, but only MP3 or WMA. Olympus has stated that they will not change the firmware to allow the unit to record more than a 4 GB file in MP3 or WMA mode. 

I am using a  105 amp hr deep cell marine battery to power the recorder in wilderness areas of Colorado.

I called 10 retailers and 9 out of 10 told me that unit would record continuously to fill up the 32 gb card in MP3 and WMA.

So obviously both the average retailer and user is unaware of this limitation. The user guide does say that the maximum file size is limited but does not elaborate that the unit stops recording.

[jsfrank]

I am planning on buying the LS-11 tomorrow. Last chance for someone to talk me out of it. The feature I like best is the 8 gigs internal storage. I am thinking that should be less vulnerable to glitches than recording onto a card. I could then copy the files onto the card to keep the 8 gigs clear.

[kleiner Rainer]

I am planning on buying the LS-11 tomorrow. Last chance for someone to talk me out of it. The feature I like best is the 8 gigs internal storage. I am thinking that should be less vulnerable to glitches than recording onto a card. I could then copy the files onto the card to keep the 8 gigs clear.

Hmmm... Flash memory can wear out. If this happens, you can simply throw away the worn-out SD or Micro SD card. How do you do this with internal memory that is soldered to a circuit board? Both internal and removable flash memory use the same technology. They even share the same (serial) interface. I prefer to use the micro SD card in my M 10 and keep the internal memory as reserve and as a place to store a copy of "Wavosaur" to have that tool available for editing if I happen to connect my M 10 to somebody elses computer. The biggest danger to memory cards is constant plugging and unplugging (wear on the contact areas) and handling them (ESD!). So I leave the card in my recorder and transfer the files via USB. No danger here - the USB connector is much sturdier and better protected than the usual memory card!

But I have to admit that the new generation of memory card recorders is a big advance comparing them to tape recorders: no more head cleaning and realignment, no belts, pulleys and rolls to replace or clean and no wow and flutter due to bad cassette mechanisms...

Greetings,

Rainer

[jsfrank]

I am planning on buying the LS-11 tomorrow. Last chance for someone to talk me out of it. The feature I like best is the 8 gigs internal storage. I am thinking that should be less vulnerable to glitches than recording onto a card. I could then copy the files onto the card to keep the 8 gigs clear.

Hmmm... Flash memory can wear out. If this happens, you can simply throw away the worn-out SD or Micro SD card. How do you do this with internal memory that is soldered to a circuit board? Both internal and removable flash memory use the same technology. They even share the same (serial) interface. I prefer to use the micro SD card in my M 10 and keep the internal memory as reserve and as a place to store a copy of "Wavosaur" to have that tool available for editing if I happen to connect my M 10 to somebody elses computer. The biggest danger to memory cards is constant plugging and unplugging (wear on the contact areas) and handling them (ESD!). So I leave the card in my recorder and transfer the files via USB. No danger here - the USB connector is much sturdier and better protected than the usual memory card!

But I have to admit that the new generation of memory card recorders is a big advance comparing them to tape recorders: no more head cleaning and realignment, no belts, pulleys and rolls to replace or clean and no wow and flutter due to bad cassette mechanisms...

Greetings,

Rainer

I almost never took the original 4 gig card out of my MT 2496. When I experimented with an 8 gig and a 32 gig at 10K Lakes last year I lost sets when it froze. I went right back to the 4 gig and never looked back. I am now going to keep the MT2496 and start using it for DAT transfers from my DA20 that has been idle for around 4 years since I got it serviced at Pro Digital. It will be interesting to see what catches my eye when I open those dusty drawers where I keep my 1200+ DATs.

[chrise]

I am planning on buying the LS-11 tomorrow. Last chance for someone to talk me out of it. The feature I like best is the 8 gigs internal storage. I am thinking that should be less vulnerable to glitches than recording onto a card. I could then copy the files onto the card to keep the 8 gigs clear.

No glitches with M10 recording onto card (or the 4GB internal storage)

[jsfrank]

Okay, my Olympus LS-11 just arrived. Does it not have a digital in? All I see are the mini usb, mic, and line ins.

edit: I guess I could use my EgoSys Waveterminal U2A and go into the mini usb?

[jsfrank]

So does the Sony PCM-M10 have digital in? It appears the Olympus LS-11 doesn't. I am so pissed off right now. I tried calling Olympus customer service and kept getting disconnected.

Here is the LS-11 FAQ:

http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_support_faqs.asp?id=1471#15

"What is the purpose of the LINE IN jack?


The LINE IN jack is intended to input recordings from the earphone jack of other audio devices such as radios, music players, microcassette and digital voice recorders, and computers. The process is known as “dubbing.” It is not recommended to input audio from such devices through the MIC jack."
So this thing is just a fancy recorder that only digitally records from it's own mics?

[rastasean]

So does the Sony PCM-M10 have digital in? It appears the Olympus LS-11 doesn't. I am so pissed off right now. I tried calling Olympus customer service and kept getting disconnected.

Here is the LS-11 FAQ:

there is no digital in of any sort on the m10

[Todd R]

The M10 doesn't have a digital input, but the Sony D50 does (optical digital input).  You'd need a V3 with the optical output mod from Grace to use the V3 as a the digital input source for a D50.

Other than the D50, the Marantz PMD-661 is probably the next cheaper alternative (not including the MT).  Most of the lower cost digital recorders only have analog inputs, not digital inputs.  So they can record information represented digitally (as opposed to analog recording), but they only take an analog input stream, which then goes through the recorder's internal A>D circuitry to create the digital representation that is recorded.

Most of the more expensive digital recorders, R-44, DR-680, HD-P2, 702/722/744 can take a digital input, most of the cheaper and especially handheld recorder cannot.  Of the smaller recorders that take a digital input, I think it is mainly the microtrack, D50, and 661.

[rastasean]

Of the smaller recorders that take a digital input, I think it is mainly the microtrack, D50, and 661.

don't forget the iriver hp-120 as well as many different sony mini disc recorders. (hi-md)

[Todd R]

Of the smaller recorders that take a digital input, I think it is mainly the microtrack, D50, and 661.

don't forget the iriver hp-120 as well as many different sony mini disc recorders. (hi-md)

Sorry, I was thinking 24bit recorders.  I really have no idea on the possibilities for 16bit recorders with digital inputs.  DAT decks too for that matter if we're talking out of production units (like the iRiver).

[fmaderjr]

"What is the purpose of the LINE IN jack?
So this thing is just a fancy recorder that only digitally records from it's own mics?

It really seems like you have not researched the M10 by checking the tapersection threads on it.

The M10 has a great mic input (but many mics will require a battery box to provide adequate plug in power). illcondition has mentioned a number of mics he got great results with without a battery box, including CA-11's and AT-853's.

It also has a great line input for those who want to use an external pre (like the very small ST-9100).

It does lack a digital input, but so do all recorders in its price range except the MTII. Unfortunately many here have lost recordings due to bugs in the MTII and the MTII is not nearly as good a recorder as the M10 when not used solely as a bit bucket for any external preamp with a built in ADC.

[singing banker]

Hi everybody! I hope somebody is still reading this post...
I'm one of those still not decided between the M10 and the LS-11... I know that most people agree on the recording quality of the Sony PCM-D50. I cannot afford it, so to get something close to it (as far as sound is concerned), I decided to use the cello recording on the Wingfield website to compare the M10 and the LS-11 to the D50. To my ears, the sound of the LS-11 seems much closer to that of the D50 than the sound of the M10 does. The M10 seems to lack brightness in the mid-range. Do you think this might be due to the recording conditions? Has somebody also experienced that in real situations? I kind of like the lack of brightness of the M10, but I don't want something flattering to the ear, but rather sth as close to reality as possible: I'm an aspiring opera singer (a mezzo) and I really want sth as close to reality as possible; I don't want sth that is going to make me sound better than I really do....
It's also interesting to note that in my country the LS-11 is 100 euros CHEAPER than the M10... which seems the exact opposite to what is in the US.
All that taken into consideration, what would you recommend?

Thanks a lot!

[Cheesecadet]

M10 for sure...

[jbell]

The sony pcm m10 is more popular among the taping commuinty!  Not too many LS11 users, but what would you be using it for?  That might help.  Will you have external mics and a pre?  I would stick with the sony m10 or maybe look at an edirol R09HR.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

Sony M10. Tried and true. I've used mine for speeches with the internal mics as well as shows (both mic in and line in from a Tinybox). Never had a single issue.

I chose the Sony since so many tapers are using it and I've never really heard a complaint.

[dallman]

I have an LS -10 and it is a great and very tiny deck.  I have made some excellent recordings with it. I do not use it too much, but I do like the build and quality. My understanding is that the LS 11 has great internal storgae as well as an improved low end response. If it is 100 dollars less, unless the Sony has a specific feature you want, I think the LS 11 is a great deal.

(If I can recall correctly though, Chris Church hates this deck!)

[singing banker]

Thank you everybody for your answers.

jmbell: I'd be using the recorder to record my singing practice (opera), using the internal mics most of the time. I might invest in some external mics at some point, but it's not budgeted yet...

I knew most people on this post preferred the M10 (I read everything...), but I still doubted because of that cello recording: has anybody tried to listen to the cello recording on the Wingfield website to see what I was talking about? Here is the link: http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/portable-recorder-sound-samples.html

Can somebody explain to me why the M10 sounds so weak in the middle range and why, when listening to the M10, PCM-D50 and LS-11, the LS-11 seems closer to the D50 than the M10 does, please?

Has somebody some samples of something recorded both (and at the same time) on the M10 and on the LS11, please?

THANK YOU ALL!   

(dallman: whom do you call Chris Church?)

[rastasean]

chris church sells microphones and pre-amps on this site:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136212.0

it is unlikely that people have BOTH the ls11 and the m10 so a true tapers tested side-by-side comparison probably hasn't taken place.

be happy with whichever deck you get.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The built in mics in most recorders are incredibly cheap.  For most of us here, the internal mics are more of an afterthought, and not a primary (or even secondary) solution.  That's part of the reason why the mfgs don't budget a lot of the product cost on internal mics.  However, you can still make good recordings with them.

It is not a good idea to consider recordings made in different (perhaps unknown) circumstances as being indicative of the performance of recorders..    I'm guessing the ls-11 has cardioid pattern mics.  The m10 has omnis.  Cards will tend to maintain their performance at distance, while omnis will start to sound distant when not up close.

The built in gain on the m10 is regarded as very quiet.  I'm not sure about the ls-11.

Will you need to conceal this recorder?  If so, you may find it easier to use external mics.

[illconditioned]

The built in mics in most recorders are incredibly cheap.  For most of us here, the internal mics are more of an afterthought, and not a primary (or even secondary) solution.  That's part of the reason why the mfgs don't budget a lot of the product cost on internal mics.  However, you can still make good recordings with them.

It is not a good idea to consider recordings made in different (perhaps unknown) circumstances as being indicative of the performance of recorders..    I'm guessing the ls-11 has cardioid pattern mics.  The m10 has omnis.  Cards will tend to maintain their performance at distance, while omnis will start to sound distant when not up close.

The built in gain on the m10 is regarded as very quiet.  I'm not sure about the ls-11.

Will you need to conceal this recorder?  If so, you may find it easier to use external mics.

I haven't used the Olympus, but the Sony M10 mics are alright.  They are very quiet.  The sound is not great for music, but they make excellent ambient/informal recordings, with very low noise.


That said, recording *any* music, you'd better use external mics.  IMO, some of the best mics for music are Sennheiser MKE2 (omni) or MKE40 (cardioid).  These are both available as "Sennheiser driven" mics from microphonemadness.com.  By the way, don't buy their own "house brand", just the Senns.  You won't be disappointed...


  Richard

[illconditioned]

The built in mics in most recorders are incredibly cheap.  For most of us here, the internal mics are more of an afterthought, and not a primary (or even secondary) solution.  That's part of the reason why the mfgs don't budget a lot of the product cost on internal mics.  However, you can still make good recordings with them.

It is not a good idea to consider recordings made in different (perhaps unknown) circumstances as being indicative of the performance of recorders..    I'm guessing the ls-11 has cardioid pattern mics.  The m10 has omnis.  Cards will tend to maintain their performance at distance, while omnis will start to sound distant when not up close.

The built in gain on the m10 is regarded as very quiet.  I'm not sure about the ls-11.

Will you need to conceal this recorder?  If so, you may find it easier to use external mics.

I haven't used the Olympus, but the Sony M10 mics are alright.  They are very quiet.  The sound is not great for music, but they make excellent ambient/informal recordings, with very low noise.


That said, recording *any* music, you'd better use external mics.  IMO, some of the best mics for music are Sennheiser MKE2 (omni) or MKE40 (cardioid).  These are both available as "Sennheiser driven" mics from microphonemadness.com.  By the way, don't buy their own "house brand", just the Senns.  You won't be disappointed.  Both of those sets are ca. $250 a pair.  If you want a good sounding, cheaper mic, you can get some nice ones from Church Audio for around $100 a pair.  But from the sounds of it, if you are a musician, you want something very good.


  Richard

[singing banker]

Thank you all for your answers. I guess I'll go for the M10... But I really wonder why in Europe it's 100 euros more expensive than the LS-11, whereas it is the exact opposite in the US 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Thank you all for your answers. I guess I'll go for the M10... But I really wonder why in Europe it's 100 euros more expensive than the LS-11, whereas it is the exact opposite in the US 

Ah... I see.   I'd missed that, and it had me wondering why you wanted the more expensive recorder.  Our economy is terrible, but at least we get a break on prices

[aaronji]

Thank you all for your answers. I guess I'll go for the M10... But I really wonder why in Europe it's 100 euros more expensive than the LS-11, whereas it is the exact opposite in the US 

Have you tried doing some online comparison shopping?  Thomann (in Germany) sells the M10 (with windscreen) for 50 euros more than the LS-11.  Feedback, in the Netherlands, has the M10 for 10 euros cheaper than the LS-11.  You should definitely be able to find an M10 that's not 100 euros more if you look around a bit...

Another option worth considering is having a US-based friend buy one for you as a birthday gift and mail it to you...

[singing banker]

Thank you all for your answers. I guess I'll go for the M10... But I really wonder why in Europe it's 100 euros more expensive than the LS-11, whereas it is the exact opposite in the US 

Have you tried doing some online comparison shopping?  Thomann (in Germany) sells the M10 (with windscreen) for 50 euros more than the LS-11.  Feedback, in the Netherlands, has the M10 for 10 euros cheaper than the LS-11.  You should definitely be able to find an M10 that's not 100 euros more if you look around a bit...

Another option worth considering is having a US-based friend buy one for you as a birthday gift and mail it to you...

I used to live in the US and I still have my credit cards and a bank account, so buying it in the US would not really be a pb. But I could have pbs with customs, the electric adapter is always a pain in the neck and if I had a pb with the deck, I might have pbs having it fixed here....

The built in mics in most recorders are incredibly cheap.  For most of us here, the internal mics are more of an afterthought, and not a primary (or even secondary) solution.  That's part of the reason why the mfgs don't budget a lot of the product cost on internal mics.  However, you can still make good recordings with them.

It is not a good idea to consider recordings made in different (perhaps unknown) circumstances as being indicative of the performance of recorders..    I'm guessing the ls-11 has cardioid pattern mics.  The m10 has omnis.  Cards will tend to maintain their performance at distance, while omnis will start to sound distant when not up close.

The built in gain on the m10 is regarded as very quiet.  I'm not sure about the ls-11.

Will you need to conceal this recorder?  If so, you may find it easier to use external mics.

Wingfield gives us the conditions of her recordings.... She records each piece once, with all the recorders on and using only the internal mics... I cannot give you all the details she gives on her experiences, but you can go on her website.

thanks a lot

[aaronji]

I used to live in the US and I still have my credit cards and a bank account, so buying it in the US would not really be a pb. But I could have pbs with customs, the electric adapter is always a pain in the neck and if I had a pb with the deck, I might have pbs having it fixed here....

The customs issue is why I suggested finding a friend to buy it for you as a gift; at least in my experience, gifts are not taxed on import...Direct, non-gift, shipments can get pretty heavily hit, though.  I ended up paying almost double for a Sound Pros battery box to get shipped to Europe once shipping, import duties and value-added tax were factored in.  Most expensive battery box ever!

The plug isn't a problem, really.  You need a plug adapter but not a full-fledged converter.  The repair issue is tough.  Basically, you would have to forgo the warranty unless you could ship it back to someone in the US to re-ship it to Sony...

[GreatGig]

Sorry to resurrect this thread 'from the grave' but as it's been sometime since anything further was added, I wondered if there were any further opinions regarding the subject matter? I am about to buy a recorder and have pretty much decided it will be one of these two. I want a predominately stealth device, so like the size and weight of the LS-11 I also like the recessed gain control and SD card as opposed to a Micro SD, like the M10. It seems the build quality is better too. I appreciate the M10 seems to be the current taper of choice, but 12 months have passed so has anyone warmed to the LS-11 anymore?

Thanks

[F.O.Bean]

Go w/ the M10!

[jbell]

Go w/ the M10!

[F.O.Bean]

I LOVE my Sony M10 so much, I bought a second one a few days ago Now I have a red and black M10

[darktrain]

M10 is probably the best built and most solid of any of the handhelds, go pick one up and feel it, super easy to operate

[earmonger]

If you're outside the US, and the question is price, some people have recommended the Roland R-05 as an alternative to the PCM-M10.

As for stealth, the Olympus is pretty obviously a recorder with those mics hanging out. I have waved my little rectangular PCM-M10 at many security folks who assume it's a point-and-shoot camera and don't give it a second glance.

[GreatGig]

As for stealth, the Olympus is pretty obviously a recorder with those mics hanging out.

That's a very good point and it did cross my mind too, you wouldn't mistake it for anything else, whereas the M10 is a lot more discreet.

[GreatGig]

Thanks for the help guys, just ordered a SONY M10 from Amazon