Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50  (Read 19656 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ghellquist

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
  • Gender: Male
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2010, 02:29:45 AM »
Craig,
   you have a valid question but you consistently get answers on other things in this thread. Part of it is because no person answering you has done what you are trying to do, and simply does not have a clue. This includes me. We are all trying to inferr from other knowledge and experience, and not beeing very methodical in doing it. I will give it a try, for what little it is worth.

First you need to record things. You will get a really large quality difference depending on what equipment you use and how you use it. Mics, mic placement, mic preamp, recorder all are aspects to consider. But we cannot really know how it will affect your situation. I know a lot about the things I record ( symphony orchestras ) but I never recorded special effects.

Secondly you are planning to do some heavy handed modification of the sound. In a way, what  you are looking for is not high-fidelity reproduction, instead you are looking for the artifacts of the change. Very different from what most of us do. No question, it is perfectly valid, only different. I know there are different programs out there that can slow down your sound using quite different algorithms. My personal guess is that the choice of program and how you use it is the single most important discussion in this chain of processing. Compared to that PCM or DSD or whatever is extremely unimportant.

So what you need is to test with actual material and probably in different programs. My guess is that you will be best served with programs going a bit outside the normal envelope. This suggest to med programs like Ableton Live. Or perhaps one of the more specialized programs used in working on creating sample libraries, of these I know nothing.

So, in short. Just do it. Check the results. Modify if you need to otherwise not. And why not come back here and tell us the results.

// Gunnar

Offline craig_c

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2010, 02:54:02 AM »
Gunnar, thanks for the very frank and on-the-point reply.
I was coming to the same conclusion as you described, i.e. I need to do the tests. Clearly the severe tweaking I intend to do will depend on the methods I employ, especially the sophistication of the algorithms of the DAW.

I guess I was hoping someone could speculate, based on better theoretical knowledge than I have, about the relative quality of recording at 192KHz in PCM in a device like the Sony, vs recording in DSD and converting to PCM. My assumption is that the cleaner PCM file I have to start with will yield fewer artifacts in my resampling.

I'm starting to worry that using DSD as a source will yield a PCM file that has so much noise moved into the upper frequencies, that when I downsample the file that noise will create more artifacts than if I had simply started with a high quality PCM file. Since I don't own another recording device, I really can't test this.

I do have a Sony Pro Walkman, so possibly I could record on that for comparison (but perhaps with unfortunate tape hiss).

As for mic placement, for a lot of what I will record I will be using piezo contact pickups.

This has been a very interesting discussion of ideas.
If anyone else wants to chime in, I still appreciate the input.

thanks,
Craig
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 02:56:27 AM by craig_c »

Offline Shadow_7

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2010, 04:24:13 AM »
In terms of effects.  Sox has three related to what you sound like you want to do.

pitch - changes the pitch, but keeps the same timeline.
tempo - changes the durations of things, but keeps the same content
speed - like a variable speed dial on a tape player.  Takes the timeline and either stretches or squishes it.  Changing both pitch and tempo in the process.

$ sox input.wav output.wav speed 1.00011

(what I need to do to bring my MR-1000 results to run about the same speed as my FH1 camcorder.  Less than 1 second per hour difference, but drummers at 60p and the drift is noticeable in under ten minutes)

As far as DSD, most DSD recorders can ALSO record the standard PCM files.  If you don't like the DSD option, you don't have to use it.  And if you're not paying extra for it, why not have it?  As far as editing and players, that'll improve in time.  Low resolution PCM files wont.

Offline Ozpeter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2010, 07:07:14 AM »
Quote
how to best minimize resampling artifacts when radically shifting pitch/tempo.
Imagine using actual tape. I want to do the equivalent of recording at normal speed, and playing back at half speed, or 1qtr speed, slowing the audio, shifting pitch lower.
If you want to do exactly what tape slowing does, then there's no problem at all.  I'd suggest playing around with Reaper, which is a small download and a non-invasive installation but which has good tools for this kind of thing.  At its most basic, there's a slider to change the playback rate, and that should introduce no artifacts at all.  But it can also use the Elastique algos for stretching without pitch shifting or pitch shifting without stretching, and they have a good reputation (though any such operations are bound to produce less than perfect results).

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10260
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2010, 07:54:32 AM »
What is to Author with SACD?  You send the tracks to Sony, who charge you a small fortune, and they do the pressing - you cannot now, or will ever be able to - create your own.
No Burners
No Drives that will play the DSD streams
No software players.

Why not stay all the time in HIREZ  96/24bit and play it it with DVD-A or over Firewire ? Downsampling DSD to Rebook will shure not sound equal like the Original DSD stream.




If you say so.
I couldn't hear any difference on my system (playing the raw files off the deck vs. the same dsd> 16/44.1 wav).  I"m just speaking for myself, my ears, my playback system which has been consistently trustworthy for its accuracy....according to me.  ;-)
as individuals, with our own sense of perspective.  I have no problem understanding if you heard these differences on your system when you tried it.   so.., bottom line.  Opinions can be given.  Truth is completely unobtainable.  A techie could show me the differences on paper, and while numbers dont lie I know for near certainty that I could not pick out A vs B blind.
The best you can hope for is a significant agreement from a lot of first hand users one way or another.

Offline craig_c

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2010, 05:43:28 PM »
RE: Sox, and Reaper. Are these apps available on the Mac side?
Are there similar?
I have Live Lite 7, Audacity, and Garage Band, but I'm really at the beginning stages of learning any of these.

Craig

Offline craig_c

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2010, 09:03:31 PM »
OK, so I took a moment and looked up the compatibility of the SoX and Reaper. I should have looked before posting my question. I'm not much of a command line guy but Reaper looks pretty compelling.
Thanks for the referrals.


Craig

Offline headroom

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • My Work with Photos and for Documentary Cinema ( Soundjob)
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2010, 04:56:47 AM »
What is to Author with SACD?  You send the tracks to Sony, who charge you a small fortune, and they do the pressing - you cannot now, or will ever be able to - create your own.
No Burners
No Drives that will play the DSD streams
No software players.

Why not stay all the time in HIREZ  96/24bit and play it it with DVD-A or over Firewire ? Downsampling DSD to Rebook will shure not sound equal like the Original DSD stream.




If you say so.
I couldn't hear any difference on my system (playing the raw files off the deck vs. the same dsd> 16/44.1 wav).  I"m just speaking for myself, my ears, my playback system which has been consistently trustworthy for its accuracy....according to me.  ;-)
as individuals, with our own sense of perspective.  I have no problem understanding if you heard these differences on your system when you tried it.   so.., bottom line.  Opinions can be given.  Truth is completely unobtainable.  A techie could show me the differences on paper, and while numbers dont lie I know for near certainty that I could not pick out A vs B blind.
The best you can hope for is a significant agreement from a lot of first hand users one way or another.

Ok I was not on the newest level with DSD mix playback possibilties thanks for correcting my fault.
I made was typing it wrong: DSD sound is agressive what i forget to type the rest of my meaning, it is the noise shaping algorythm that is agressive. Its very clear that HIREZ sound very analog like DSD or any other format.
I cannot belive you did not hear a difference between Original DSD and downsamplet to 16/44.1
(playing the raw files off the deck vs. the same dsd> 16/44.1 wav)
Did I not understand  english, my native language is Swiss. Please enlighten me....

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10260
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2010, 06:28:26 AM »
What is to Author with SACD?  You send the tracks to Sony, who charge you a small fortune, and they do the pressing - you cannot now, or will ever be able to - create your own.
No Burners
No Drives that will play the DSD streams
No software players.

Why not stay all the time in HIREZ  96/24bit and play it it with DVD-A or over Firewire ? Downsampling DSD to Rebook will shure not sound equal like the Original DSD stream.




If you say so.
I couldn't hear any difference on my system (playing the raw files off the deck vs. the same dsd> 16/44.1 wav).  I"m just speaking for myself, my ears, my playback system which has been consistently trustworthy for its accuracy....according to me.  ;-)
as individuals, with our own sense of perspective.  I have no problem understanding if you heard these differences on your system when you tried it.   so.., bottom line.  Opinions can be given.  Truth is completely unobtainable.  A techie could show me the differences on paper, and while numbers dont lie I know for near certainty that I could not pick out A vs B blind.
The best you can hope for is a significant agreement from a lot of first hand users one way or another.

Ok I was not on the newest level with DSD mix playback possibilties thanks for correcting my fault.
I made was typing it wrong: DSD sound is agressive what i forget to type the rest of my meaning, it is the noise shaping algorythm that is agressive. Its very clear that HIREZ sound very analog like DSD or any other format.
I cannot belive you did not hear a difference between Original DSD and downsamplet to 16/44.1
(playing the raw files off the deck vs. the same dsd> 16/44.1 wav)
Did I not understand  english, my native language is Swiss. Please enlighten me....

Just being honest with myself.  I'd love to say "yea, I could hear a difference.  the raw DSD sounded way better".. , but I can't.  I didn't hear such a thing.  the DSD > 16bit file was indistinguishable to me.
Have you sat down w/a high res playback system and tried it blind ?

Offline Shadow_7

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2010, 06:55:51 AM »
There is a difference.  Unless you're playing everything back on a 16/48 soundcard.  Then of course they sound the same, they're all being downsampled to roughly the same rate.

I can tell a noticeable difference between DSD and 16/44.1.  It's not as dramatic as say 16/44.1 to 8/8(can you say CD vs. cell phone).  The 16/44.1 downsampled just sounds better to me than 16/44.1 that was recorded at and NOT downsampled.  Maybe not on the highest of high end gear, but most DSD options are still sort of mid-grade gear(relatively).  But then again it is very noticeable if you play those various versions back on the device that recorded the source material.  And on monitors/speakers that are mostly capable of reproducing it.  i.e. the grind grind grind of winding a disposable camera sounds like the source and not like someone with the walking farts near the mics.

Offline headroom

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • My Work with Photos and for Documentary Cinema ( Soundjob)
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2010, 07:34:34 AM »
Just being honest with myself.  I'd love to say "yea, I could hear a difference.  the raw DSD sounded way better".. , but I can't.  I didn't hear such a thing.  the DSD > 16bit file was indistinguishable to me.
Have you sat down w/a high res playback system and tried it blind ?
[/quote]

Maby the limited factor is in your recordings. We have done test with Linn stuff ( Linn 192k24 bit recordings) CD and Networkplayers with the 7k Networkplayer we were all  hearing that HIREZ is clearly better then downsamplet to Redbook. And the CD had no chance at all.

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10260
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2010, 09:19:35 AM »
maybe

Offline headroom

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • My Work with Photos and for Documentary Cinema ( Soundjob)
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2010, 10:49:47 AM »
maybe
No it was a joke. Dont know maybe it is the setup. Can you Monitor with high resolution Headphones?
I use the Audio Technica ATH AD 900 they are stellar also the 700 is very very good.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 10:55:14 AM by headroom »

Offline Nick's Picks

  • Trade Count: (33)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 10260
  • Gender: Male
  • I thought I heard.......
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2010, 12:05:00 PM »
i'm not the headphone type,. and dont have anything better than low end Senn and Beyers laying around.  I guess my best are my M-Audio in ear monitors.  its their lowest end, but still the best sounding I have. 
I prefer to sit in front of the stereo.
:)

Offline headroom

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 204
    • My Work with Photos and for Documentary Cinema ( Soundjob)
Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2010, 12:34:30 PM »
Sorry headroom. Could you step back a little. Theory is nice in many ways, but come back when you have used a DSD recorder in earnest. Things do not behave exactly as a non-complete theory predicts.

We dont listen only the Recordings, the real acid test is the Original Sound versus the recorded one.

AND:


The inherent flaw with the DSD amplitude quantization however,
is that it is much noisier than the quantization noise in a PCM system. This problem is addressed later though, with respect to each systems frequency bandwidth, dither and noise-shaping abilities all tools in diminishing the effects of quantization error noise to a practically inaudible level.

Whichever value the system assigns will obviously be a distortion of the signal, and the ensuing quantization error is audible as a rough, granular soundî (Harley 538). DSD unfortunately suffers from more of this effect than PCM; however, as seen later, is able to combat the issue much more effectively.

192 kHz PCM and DSD can displace the majority of this noise above the audible spectrum completely, reducing the audible effects by much more than the 3 dB that lesser quality PCM produces. As previously mentioned,
one major pitfall during DSD quantization is that ìthe quantization error and noise associated with sigma-delta modulation is very large, resulting in significant quantization noise, however, unlike the PCM structures
this ìnoise can be shaped such that virtually all noise power falls outside
the range 0-20 kHz, well above the range of human aural perception
(Nuijten 27). An even further distinction separating DSD and PCM is the ability of DSD filters to shape the dither with a much less complicated linear equalization curve  that is not forced to rely on less audible frequency regions below 20 kHz.


Since the sampling process is essentially a quantization of samples on a time scale rather than on an amplitude scale, signals occurring between those instances are cropped. In a 44.1 kHz system the time between each sample is fairly large, with approximately 22.68 μs between each sample. On the other hand, 192 kHz PCM samples are only 5.1 μs apart, and DSD has an even greater time domain resolution with a mere .357 μs between samples. As a result, the 192 kHz PCM and DSD systems are better suited to respond to transients accurately. How this response time actually affects the systems ability to reproduce a transient, as each system was fed a -6 dB block input (click) of a 3 µs duration. The resulting graph shows that the DSD and 192 kHz PCM systems respond the fastest and most accurately; whereas the 48 kHz PCM system not only distorts the signal, but also takes a much longer time to even react. This distinction, most visible in the large width of the 48 kHz sampling frequency reproduction, is audibly apparent in transient events as a ringing or bell-like sound.


 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 40 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF