Topic: Nagra BB+

[sunjan]

OK, let's go back to your objectives:

Your objective is to get the best versatile rig for your money, that can record both thunderstorms, trains and live music.
You have $1800 or so to spend at the moment. Do you see yourself spending any more on mics in the near future?
In that case, by all means go ahead and grab the Nagra. You already made up your mind that it's the best spent $1800 on the market.

But if you don't see yourself saving up more cash for mics later on, you need to rethink your gear chain.

The question here is not whether the Nagra is a great recorder or not. I'm sure it is.
The question is: are you willing to tape thunderstorms, trains and live music with your C1000's and end up with sub-par recordings until that day when you've saved up enough money to upgrade to professional grade mics?

I'd say that in this thread alone, the users who responded have about 150-200 years of collective taper experience. Some of the guys here are even university professors on recording and acoustics. Others are microphone retailers like Purple Dog, and have access to the full range of mics from all brands that they represent. Many of us have downloaded hundreds, even thousands of shows on archive.org, comparing mics, pres and recorders. To say that we don't have enough "personal information" to offer you our views on how to achieve your objectives is just plain unfounded.

I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?

The reason why many users end up buying C1000 and similar low-end mics is that they only have $200 to spend. Perhaps also because they didn't have the same very specific usage in mind that you do. As others mentioned, they are designed to be on-stage mics, making them much less suitable for long-distance recording and ambient stuff.
And maybe because AKG are better at marketing and has a global retail outreach aiming at the hobbyist mass market, while more specialized mic manufacturers (think Schoeps, Gefell, MBHO, Milab, Nevaton) don't?! 

In truth, you are offering opinions that I did not ask for. I will find out for myself. It's the only way.

Definitely, let your ears decide. Go to archive.org, download some shows with multiple sources and compare a C1000 recording with $1500 mic recordings of the same show. Come back here, upload them and let's have a blind A/B listening test.

If I were to ask a hundred people which is their favorite mic, I would get 100 different answers.

That's because your hypothetical question is too open. If you rephrased it to "which is your favourite mic setup that can record both trains, thunder and music, and my budget is around $1000-1500?", concensus here would probaly narrow down your choice to maybe 5-10 models + caps.

So who has the best answers? I don't know and there is no way of finding out short of using the mics and making my judgment.

It's up to you if you bother to do the research in advance or not. Users here do this research, all the time. Again, let your ears decide. There are lot's of sources on archive and other sites where you can compare mics. You don't have to buy and use your own gear to make judgments.

Do you think they are less important than the mics? I don't think so. They are both important. So, I say, buy good pre-amps. I'm going to do that.

Nobody is arguing against you buying gear with good preamps. This is not what the discussion is about. What we're all trying to say is that the best preamps in the world won't output a good recording if you feed them with mics that aren't suitable for the task.

What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic? Something better? Are you willing to spend that much? I'll bet not. Why, because you don't place a great value on the fine quality sound which the great mics are capable of. But I am willing to spend that much. Just not now. I'm not ready for that level of quality.

You're contradicting yourself here.
IIUC, you're willing to accept less-than-great sound quality on your recordings and stick to your C1000's for the time being, but at the same time won't consider sub-$1800 recorders because they're not professional enough. Why? Wasn't your objective to get the best overall quality given your current budget?

[Karma]

HI sun,
I never deceived myself. I knew the C1000 were not the best mics. Price is a good guide. However, I did the research and found many who thought the C1000 was a good mic. That's one reason I bought it. The other reason is the lack selection locally. There is no way I could audition the vast quantity of mics out in the market. Also, I knew no one who could help. I don't see that I had much choice but to buy mics that got good comments, I could afford, were available and had the features I wanted (battery power, 48V phantom operable, and variable pattern). Honestly, I never expected this outpouring of venom aimed at the C1000. I thought I was doing OK within the confines of my objectives. I will use my ears and I don't need you to remind me. I live in the world of high end hi fi. My ears are all I've got.

And yes, I am willing to have lower quality recordings as I learn the craft. That's the price of of the experience. I understood that from the beginning. Also yes, I always planned to buy better mics as my skills justified the cost.

I truly think you guy's are not putting yourself in my shoes. I would appreciate it if you would try. You don't have to agree with me but I don't like to be treated like an idiot.

Sparky

[F.O.Bean]

Wow, you guy's are ripping me hard. Your opinions of the AKG mics are not universal at all. I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?

Normally, with a Nagra you would use something like: Sennheiser MKH series, Neumann, Schoeps, DPA, Gefell or MBHO (MBHO being especially good value for the quality - similar quality to Schoeps but a lot cheaper).

I can understand wanting something like a Nagra and using inexpensive mics. while he saves up for something decent to match the Nagra (and, in a way, I did something like this myself when I started many years ago).  But I think you will be very disappointed with the C1000 - sorry.

I totally agree w/ John! MBHO's are AMAZING for their price, at least IMO, and they have different capsules so you can add them as time goes by

And noone is ripping you, just trying to be truthful and to guide you in the "right" direction

[page]

HI sun,
I never deceived myself. I knew the C1000 were not the best mics. Price is a good guide. However, I did the research and found many who thought the C1000 was a good mic. That's one reason I bought it. The other reason is the lack selection locally. There is no way I could audition the vast quantity of mics out in the market. Also, I knew no one who could help. I don't see that I had much choice but to buy mics that got good comments, I could afford, were available and had the features I wanted (battery power, 48V phantom operable, and variable pattern). Honestly, I never expected this outpouring of venom aimed at the C1000. I thought I was doing OK within the confines of my objectives. I will use my ears and I don't need you to remind me. I live in the world of high end hi fi. My ears are all I've got.

And yes, I am willing to have lower quality recordings as I learn the craft. That's the price of of the experience. I understood that from the beginning. Also yes, I always planned to buy better mics as my skills justified the cost.

I truly think you guy's are not putting yourself in my shoes. I would appreciate it if you would try. You don't have to agree with me but I don't like to be treated like an idiot.

I've been where you are now; I didn't have the opportunity to sample gear before purchase. I had to make decisions with limited information. I had to make some bum recordings before I got better. You are correct, there is a learning curve and it is the price of experience. However, that curve can be diminished and the price lowered. So yes, I have been in your shoes, and I have tried (as others here have) to help reduce that learning curve. You are right, you didn't come here to ask about mics, we offered responses based on your stated goals to try and help you. On that note, I think Javier is right, based on your actions and responses, this wasn't an information seeking inquiry, but one of confirmation.

Some have been more testy in their replies than others, true, but we all have a collective wealth of experience which can make this adventure less painful or disenfranchising for you. Nobody here wants to see you fail in your objective as evidenced by our willingness to take the time to think out a response that will provide you with useful information pertaining to your professed goals. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't treat us like idiots, because we all started somewhere and we remember what that was like, and now we have something to offer in this realm of knowledge that can help you. I have tried my best not to rip on you for your replies, and will instead offer one last piece of advice that you can take or leave as you wish; If I were you, and my money was limited and I had a desire to produce high quality recordings of nature/ambient sounds while I learned. I'd get a cheap recorder and use your C1000s for a number of recordings. Learn what patterns can do for sound, learn what other recorders are out there, features, etc. Learn what other mics are out there, and what features you actually need and which ones don't prove nearly as useful as you first thought (I've had several of those epiphanies myself. Something looked great on paper only to be rather useless or lackluster once I got in the field). Then, I'd buy new mics before getting a new/better recorder, because as others have noted; the quality of your mics will make the biggest difference in your recording compared to anything else in the signal chain. To put it more bluntly, a good set of mics and a bad recorder will trump a bad set of mics and a good recorder 4 out of 5 times if not more. Maybe money isn't tight for you, I don't know (that wasn't stated in any of the posts I saw earlier), but if money is tight, I'd start out with cheap gear until you feel comfortable and concentrate on upgrading the mics. In that regard, the C1000s will be a good learning tool. They did not cost as much as other mics, and they will let you learn, but I suggest saving some cash and getting a cheaper recorder to learn on and saving some money for mics down the road. Take it or leave it.

If you don't think our information or opinion is up to snuff, maybe we are crazy or whatever. In that case, I suggest asking at other recording forums, such as gearslutz.com and see what another side of the recording craft says, maybe we'll have the same opinion, maybe not. (GS is frequented by lots of paid professionals who churn out CDs professionally from classical, rock, to nature recordings, where as we are generally non-professionals/hobbyist who have gotten fairly good at what we do. They do this as a living and have an astonishing knowledge base to draw upon, they know their gear in and out.)

Regardless, good luck.

[F.O.Bean]

I started out like Page, back in the mid 90's, when cassettes were traded, and I was sick of getting 9th generation cassettes, so I bought my "OWN" HQ rig[AKG 481>DMIC-20>Sony D8], and swore Id never listen to another shitty cassette tape. Places like archive.org were not around, nor was ts.com, so you had to rely on word of mouth and listening to a few recordings you liked, and picked your mics from that. I had to rely on my recordings getting better from EXPERIENCE, not from many helpful people on a website. I would have been in HEAVEN if ts.com was around. Noone told me to run DIN/DINa/NOS/ORTF/etc, I ran those after trying out show after show and listening critically to those results

So I say, get a good pair of mics, and a modded 24-bit "all-in-one" recorder w/ alot of gain for ambient recordings, and you will thank us later. If you like those mics and have more $$, then start to save up for the Nagra. Getting an expensive recorder and shitty mics is doing it backwards, as others have stated. Start w/ mics, then preamp, then ADC/Recorder. Trust us on this

Good luck in your search and journey. And I hope you like it, because its VERY ADDICTIVE. I hope you end up liking it and sticking around ts.com

[sunjan]

Honestly, I never expected this outpouring of venom aimed at the C1000.

Look, I don't think that C1000 is a bad mic per se. For someone with a mic budget of $300-400 who only intend to use them for close miking (as opposed to ambient field recording), they are perfectly OK. I have even recommended them as starter mics here on TS earlier, to guys who couldn't afford spending more.
We're not saying that you made a bad investment. The resale value is excellent, you did nothing wrong given your circumstances.

But you yourself mentioned the law of diminishing returns. If I'd put myself in your shoes, I'd look at it this way:

John Doe has $400 worth of mics, $0 worth of recorder and $1800 to spend at the moment.
The difference between $400 mics and say $1300 worth of mics is pretty substantial. Also because it allows you to get multiple caps, or even a separate handheld stereo mic for nature/field use, instead of juggling two separate mics. Whereas the difference between a $900 and $1800 recorder is much smaller.

And yes, I am willing to have lower quality recordings as I learn the craft. That's the price of of the experience. I understood that from the beginning. Also yes, I always planned to buy better mics as my skills justified the cost.

Why don't you apply this reasoning when shopping for a recorder then? You acknowledge that you are a learner in certain aspects, and that you will settle for low-budget mics until your skills are better. Like page suggested, get a recorder that is on par with the mics, sound- and budget wise, and save the bulk of your budget until your skills justify the cost?!

If you feel that us folks at TS are biased, go to gearslutz or even better, Nature Recordists:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/naturerecordists/

Post the same scenario there. Evaluate the advice given from all three communities and see if the opinions converge. Good luck with your endeavours...

As a service, feel free to compare these tapes. It's three gigs, with dual sources (C1000's vs other mics):

AKG C1000's>UA5>NJB3
http://www.archive.org/details/eh2007-08-18
AKG 481 > Silver Dogstar > ACM R4
http://www.archive.org/details/eh2007-08-18.eh2007-08-18.aud.flac16
sp lsd2(x-y cards, bass rolloff, 6.5', fob, 5' loc)>acm 660(-20db)
http://www.archive.org/details/eh2007-08-18.aud.shn.proper

FOB DPA 4023(ORTF) > Lunatec V3 > Sony D-8 @ 16/48
http://www.archive.org/details/sci2004-06-11.dpa4023
AKG C1000's (ORTF, DFC 35' from stage) > Samson Mixpad 4 > TCD-D8
http://www.archive.org/details/sci2004-06-11.shnf

CEMC6-CK4>FR2-LE
http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2010-02-12
AKG C1000S> Edirol R-09> USB> Sound Forge> CDWav
http://www.archive.org/details/dbt2010-02-13
(two consecutive dates, but you get the point...)

[ghellquist]

I believe the lure here is the seemingly large discount. 1200 bucks off cannot be wrong. Or can it?

My guess is that it is. It is still a lot of money. For old technology, this used to be state of the art but is mostly standard today. Can the same money be used wiser? My suggestion as well as most others is to sell those noisy C1000 mics, there are much better alternatives for ambience recordings if you look at the total budget.

It is like putting 50k buck speakers in a concrete bunker without doing any sound treatment of the room. Spending half as much gets you better sound if it includes acoustic treatment. Less status though, agrred.

Gunnar

[Karma]

HI Guy's,
The last few posts at least made an attempt to see my position and I appreciate it. I know you don't agree with me and am not going to push the point. I apologize for being a bit distressed at your sometimes harsh words. You are right. I do see care for a fellow recordist. That's nice and makes me feel more at home. Thanks.

As I see it, in the final analysis it makes no difference relative to my final goal whether I buy a Nagra or better mics first. I must go with my instincts which are very much are aimed at a professional level recorder. I will go in the Nagra direction knowing ultimately it is a right decision. This is not at all a matter of whether or not I will get to my goals. I will. I'm a very focused person. What I mostly need is a functional kit that gets me into the field and start recording - the fun part. Experience is everything which I will get no matter what equipment I buy or which order I purchase it. My love for fine equipment will just make the journey more enjoyable to me. I do think that is important.

Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. Let's say I had a mic budget of up to $2000 for two matched mics. This is not an unrealistic budget. I just bought a $3500 Lyra Skala phono cartridge for my main hi fi system. Some people think I am crazy for doing this. But, the phono cartridge is very much like a mic. The sound starts there; it's the source. Some in this thread seem to think I don't understand that concept. Not true. I'm totally in agreement with it. I'm capable and willing to spend real money when I think it is important.

Given my goals that have been stated many times in this thread, which mics would you suggest for $2000? I'd love to hear you views because at some point in the future I will need your advice and I will use it. Understand that I probably will have no chance to audition the mics you suggest. I hate being in that position but there is not much I can do about it. Also, I understand that no single mic is universal. I fully expect to eventually have a stable of mics for different purposes. But, let’s start at the start; a great general purpose mic.

Please, have fun with this. What would you buy?

Thanks, Sparky

[page]

Given my goals that have been stated many times in this thread, which mics would to suggest for $2000? I'd love to hear you views because at some point in the future I will need your advice and I will use it. Understand that I probably will have no chance to audition the mics you suggest. I hate being in that position but there is not much I can do about it. Also, I understand that no single mic is universal. I fully expect to eventually have a stable of mics for different purposes. But, let’s start at the start; a great general purpose mic.

Please, have fun with this. What would you buy?

Thanks, Sparky

If the top end of the first jump is 2k, and the usage is still for nature recording, I'd consider a couple of options:

Schoeps MK series (the MK21, MK2, and maybe the MK4 in particular) combined with either what we call an nbox or a CMR setup (two different options, both eliminate the need for the CMC bodies which is an added expense). A set of caps are aproximately $1500 (new) total, with the rest to spend on the amplifier to power them. Bodies wouldn't be required for this particular setup. The advantage here is while for nature recording the CMR takes a sensitivity hit, you could probably resell it later when you move up to the nbox (unless you can find one used at a good price), so in my view it's not a waste of an investment since you get the keep the most expensive part (the caps). If you are not careful, the schoeps will run more then $2k, easily. The only viability I can think of that keeps it under $2k is the CMR setup and maybe an nbox setup if you can find the caps used.

A set of Microtech Gefell M2000/m20 mics might fit under $2k if you really hunt around, but I'd expect to pay around $2400. While colored in their sound signature, they are held in high regard for their detail. MBHO's Omni &/or Subcards would fit under $2k, as would the beyerdynamic full body MC910/930 (each, not sure together). A set of AKG 480 bodies and ck61 or ck62 (omni) caps should fit within $2k. All of these would work, and produce a better result than lower end stuff, but they aren't the best for nature recording IMHO. They do pretty well at concert or musical event recording and their color generally adds to the recording, but it's a different value system in place for nature/sfx stuff.

Might consider investigating Milab, specifically the VM-44 omni/cardioid system. I don't know enough about it to pass judgement in the realm of nature/sfx.

DPAs only fit under $2k if you get the lower end stuff or beat someone up in an alley and run really fast.  I can think of some folks who hold the 406x line in regard for their low end omni stuff if you take the grill off. ymmv and I'd want to hear samples before I committed my money in that direction. Ultimately, if money was no object, I'd pick up the DPA reference series omnis, subcardioids and cardioids. I'm not as fond of their signature for music, but for nature and ambient sounds, I think their signature of detail and lack of sonic color are real benefits.

[Karma]

HI Page,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that one of my original goals was recording music. Probably this means solo or small group performers. But if I can manage it I want to record chamber groups, bands, and symphony orchestras. I plan to do this as much as I can but it will take time to build contacts. Nature is only one of my objectives.

Also, it would help if you all indicate if you have actually used the mics you suggest.

Sparky

[Karma]

HI Page,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that one of my original goals was recording music. Probably this means solo or small group performers. But if I can manage it I want to record chamber groups, bands, and symphony orchestras. I plan to do this as much as I can but it will take time to build contacts. Nature is only one of my objectives.

Also, it would help if you all indicate if you have actually used the mics or have first hand experience with what you suggest.

Sparky

[page]

HI Page,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that one of my original goals was recording music. Probably this means solo or small group performers. But if I can manage it I want to record chamber groups, bands, and symphony orchestras. I plan to do this as much as I can but it will take time to build contacts. Nature is only one of my objectives.

Also, it would help if you all indicate if you have actually used the mics you suggest.

Sparky

I've personally used/own the beyerdynamic ones so I'm rather familiar with the detail and sound there, and I've run my mics in comparison to the schoeps, and akgs I mentioned. I've heard the beyers run against the gefells a number of times but always at other events. Heard a bunch of samples of DPAs in nature and at musical events (some of which I was at with mine, some not). The Milabs and MBHOs are suggests within the price range to do some research on, not necessarily an endorsement.

The symphony/orchestral crowd seem to prefer Schoeps and DPAs (just relating what I see, I don't record that genre so take it with a grain of salt). John can comment on that (I think he uses Sennheisers, but I don't have any experience hearing comparisons or running those) and there is a fellow here ; D.Satz who does recording in that area (and uses Schoeps).

[TNJazz]

I use B&K 4011 and Nevaton MK49 in the field and both are highly recommended for the various recording you are looking to do.

At the risk of crossing any boundaries between hobbyist and gear pimp, I sell Nevaton and Milab and I find that both are excellent choices.  If you'd like more information on either feel free to PM me.

I've not used the CK series beyers, but I have owned the predecessors MC930, MC803 and MC703.  All are very nice mics, but can be a little dark sometimes - particularly the 930.

I've owned Schoeps CMC621 and CMC64 and they were wonderful as well for close miking sources (music) but in the end I decided I liked the Nevatons better for all around use.

I've owned a lot of AKG mics in the past (451, 460, 414, etc) and I am not a fan.  They have a sizzle to my ears that I just don't care for (even the JWmod versions).

A number of recordists (especially classical) like the Sennheiser 8040's.  I've never used them myself but I have heard recordings and I really haven't heard any bad things said about them.

So a short list of small diaphragm condenser recommendations (in no particular order) are:

1.  DPA/B&K (4011, 4021, 4022, 4023)
2.  Nevaton MC49
3.  Milab VM44 (Link or Classic)
4.  Schoeps CMC64 (cardioids)
5.  beyerdynamic CK930 (or MC930)
6.  Sennheiser 8040

If you are willing to consider large diaphragm/multipattern mics at all, the list grows substantially...

[it-goes-to-eleven]

6.  Sennheiser 8040

Those Senn's are unique in that they are RF coupled.  That gives them big advantages in regard to humidity resistance, making them far more suitable and resilient for outdoor use than most other mics.  I haven't tried them.

[Karma]

HI Guy's
Hey, this is great! Keep them coming.

Thanks, Sparky