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Author Topic: Roland r26  (Read 35041 times)

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Chimney Top

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2013, 05:19:30 PM »
there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
maybe it's because the R-26 can't handle a hot input levels for some unknown reasons.
according to Avisoft Bioacoustics comparsion of various recorders http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm, an Input Clipping Level of the R-26 via XLR ANALOG IN is 0.25 mV.
And it's pretty low as I can understand.
For example, the Input Clipping Level of SoundDevices 722 is 3.8mV, and Fostex FR-2LE is 4.3mV.



^ This.

The DR-100, R-26 etc. are probably more 'pro-sumer' devices and use the 1/8" input from external preamps.

The Fostex FR-2LE is more of a true 'little-brother/relative' of the FR2 and is designed to handle the hot signals from external preamps.  I liked the FR-2LE... just a little bulky for a 2 channel recorder.  Good features.



Chimney Top

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2013, 05:24:52 PM »
and according to this:
  http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-188991.html

To get the max clipping level on the DR-100, you have to set it to "GAIN HIGH"...


The mixpre levels are already HOT at the lowest settings (for rock concerts or most concerts)... The DR-100 was set to mid-gain.

Offline heehaw

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #62 on: March 12, 2013, 03:10:11 AM »
there is no reason why the R-26 should not have the capability to record the balanced XLR input from the Mixpre.
maybe it's because the R-26 can't handle a hot input levels for some unknown reasons.
according to Avisoft Bioacoustics comparsion of various recorders http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm, an Input Clipping Level of the R-26 via XLR ANALOG IN is 0.25 mV.
And it's pretty low as I can understand.
For example, the Input Clipping Level of SoundDevices 722 is 3.8mV, and Fostex FR-2LE is 4.3mV.



^ This.

The DR-100, R-26 etc. are probably more 'pro-sumer' devices and use the 1/8" input from external preamps.

The Fostex FR-2LE is more of a true 'little-brother/relative' of the FR2 and is designed to handle the hot signals from external preamps.  I liked the FR-2LE... just a little bulky for a 2 channel recorder.  Good features.
all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.
2 x mkh40 > mixpre-d > m10

Offline ashevillain

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2013, 09:42:33 AM »
all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.

I really don't see what the problem is. Considering the R-26 is adding 62dB at the maximum available gain setting for the XLR input and that chart is saying it the input will clip if you feed it 70dB...I mean that's pretty irrelevant to what we do as concert tapers. If you are recording nature sounds or something then maybe it has an effect...but then there are much better preamps for that sort of work anyway.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2013, 11:52:48 AM »
all I want to say is that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is very VERY LOW for a device with the XLR inputs, no matter that this device is kinda "pro-sumer" comparing it to more high-end recorders like Sound Devices. And especially interesting that the R-26 Input Clipping Level is still VERY LOW comparing it to kinda consumer devices like Olympus LS-11 or Sony PCM M10.

I really don't see what the problem is. Considering the R-26 is adding 62dB at the maximum available gain setting for the XLR input and that chart is saying it the input will clip if you feed it 70dB...I mean that's pretty irrelevant to what we do as concert tapers. If you are recording nature sounds or something then maybe it has an effect...but then there are much better preamps for that sort of work anyway.

I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either.  You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44.   The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.

It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline aaronji

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2013, 12:17:32 PM »
Plus, the R26 manual says that the maximum input level on the XLRs is "+24 dBu (SENS = +4 dBu)".  That's hotter than the FR2-LE...

Offline ashevillain

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2013, 12:52:32 PM »
I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either.  You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44.   The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.

It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.

Agreed on all accounts!

I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2013, 02:07:42 PM »
I'm not sure what heehaw is talking about, either.  You can set the input sensitivity on the R-26 to exactly the same low level as you can on the R-44.   The sensitivity on the minijack input is what's less optimal to me, because you cannot get it down to true line level even going to the lowest setting.

It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.

Agreed on all accounts!

I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.

I also grabbed Naiant attenuators for hot SBDs/"Just in case"
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Chimney Top

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2013, 03:46:14 PM »
I will send an e-mail to Shure.

I ran some tests and you can hear the signal distorting as soon as the mixpre hits the first red light (lowest setting possible), but not with the tape out.

Until this is resolved, I will try the phantom power/internal preamps on the R-26.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 04:02:10 PM by Chimney Top »

Offline aaronji

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2013, 04:00:37 PM »
I did get a set of 12dB attenuators from Naiant which so far seems to be perfect for hot SBD feeds > the 1/8" input.

I also grabbed Naiant attenuators for hot SBDs/"Just in case"

At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too.  Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...

Offline ashevillain

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #70 on: March 12, 2013, 04:28:39 PM »
At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too.  Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...

True. Although as it's been stated, the +4dBu is nominal. This translates (according to Roland's docs) to -7.5dBu maximum.

The Mixpre sends (at minimum) +6dB via the tape out and +16dB via the XLR out. That is why the XLR out of the Mixpre overloads the 1/8" input of the R-26. If Chimney Top would just use the 1/8" out of the Mixpre then there are 1.5dB worth of headroom.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline heehaw

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #71 on: March 12, 2013, 04:36:32 PM »
It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
i'm not comparing the R-26 and SD744 recorders as such.
i'm comparing Input Clipping Level of 2 recorders with the XLR inputs, so if the price in this comparing is important for you, we can compare the R-26 with the Olympus LS-100. They are in the same price league as I know, and the Input Clipping Level of the R-26 is still very very low comparing it to LS-100. 0.25mV (R-26) vs 3.1mV (LS-100). And it's still very low comparing it to more cheap handheld recorders without the XLR inputs, like Olympus LS10 or Sony PCM m10. As I can understand this means that in the same situation with the same settings on both devices, recorder with a lower Input Clipping Level, like the R-26 can be distorted much easier than the recorder with a higher Input Clipping Level, like the Olympus LS-100. Thereby in situations when you need something like a pad to feed recorder like a R-26 without clipping and distortion, it can be done without any pads with recorder like Olympus LS-100. Maybe it's the reason why Chimney Top noticed distortion when he connected Mixpre line-out to the R-26 line-in. I heard about similar distortion problem when connecting Mixpre line-out to the line-in of a Zoom H4n. And H4N has a clipping and distortion problem on the lowest possible input settings while the Mixpre not even hit limiters.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 04:38:54 PM by heehaw »
2 x mkh40 > mixpre-d > m10

Chimney Top

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2013, 05:20:41 PM »
At +4 dBu, the 1/8" mic input is pretty robust too.  Those attenuators definitely seem like a good idea for soundboards, but it should be able to take most mic/SPL combos...

True. Although as it's been stated, the +4dBu is nominal. This translates (according to Roland's docs) to -7.5dBu maximum.

The Mixpre sends (at minimum) +6dB via the tape out and +16dB via the XLR out. That is why the XLR out of the Mixpre overloads the 1/8" input of the R-26. If Chimney Top would just use the 1/8" out of the Mixpre then there are 1.5dB worth of headroom.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.



I'm not running Mixpre XLR to R-26 1/8", I'm running Mixpre XLR to R-26 XLR. However, the Mixpre 1/8" (Tape out) > R-26 1/8" (Plug in/low setting) is ok.


Here is the response from Shure:

"The FP24 output is line level - not mic level. The devices that are distorting need a mic level signal, not line level."


OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 05:23:18 PM by Chimney Top »

Chimney Top

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2013, 05:32:11 PM »
It's also a bit silly to compare the R-26 to a SD744T, considering 744T costs 8X as much.
I heard about similar distortion problem when connecting Mixpre line-out to the line-in of a Zoom H4n. And H4N has a clipping and distortion problem on the lowest possible input settings while the Mixpre not even hit limiters.

huh... I sold the FR-2LE so I can't run tests (since XLR/TRS worked with that recorder) to see if there is an issue with the Mixpre.

Offline kenyee

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Re: Roland r26
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2013, 05:34:15 PM »
OK, however the R-26 has a setting for +4dBu (line level) and it is still distorting.

You should probably ask Roland directly...seems like quirk w/ the R-26's XLR inputs.  They'll take a week to reply though :-P

 

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