Topic: Microtracker vs Edirol R-1

[pfife]

So, there's a lot of hype about the Microtracker going on, possibly deservedly so.  But I was wondering, what is it about the R-1 (or what it lacks?) that makes everyone want a Microtracker so badly?

[Brian Skalinder]

For me, the R1's lack of digi-in.

[nic]

for me, the comparison should be against the Marantz 671.
less than half the cost of the 722 (even after mods by Oade + CF cards) and verified to work...out of the box.

[WiFiJeff]

It's much smaller than the R1, even if I have to use a USB AA battery sled.

It will take digital-in, maybe, if the firmware is fixed.

It will record at 24/96 not just 24/44.1.

The firmware fix is supposed to start up new files seamlessly at the 2 GB limit, while the R1 hasn't updated firmware since the end of last year and has not promised this fix.

Len at Core Sound says the phantom power measures at only 30V, I doubt there is a fix for this, so folks who wanted phantom may be disappointed with it.

Still, I'm using my R1 until the MT gets shaken out a bit more.

Jeff

[pfife]

For me, the R1's lack of digi-in.

I didn't even notice this, as I intend to use the R-1's internal a/d, so this is a good point.

[nickgregory]

the R1's internal A/D is surprisingly great sounding...fwiw

[pfife]

the R1's internal A/D is surprisingly great sounding...fwiw

that's what I hear from others... 

[sleepypedro]

The firmware fix is supposed to start up new files seamlessly at the 2 GB limit, while the R1 hasn't updated firmware since the end of last year and has not promised this fix.

they told me privately that this was being worked on, fyi.

[MattinSTL]

2 things... so should I be considering the R1? I know it doesn't LOOK as nice as the MicroTrack but that's not what I'm buying for... and I ALSO don't care about digital in.

Other thing... I ALSO think the comparison should maybe be between the 671... should I just get THAT? But the issue there is I plan to use it LINE-IN and not MIC-IN 'cause I need to change levels on the fly!

Which brings me to my third thing (so I lied when I said only two)... sleepypedro! Aren't you supposed to be sending somebody a picture of your MP-2? 

[silentmark]

Anyone running Neumann ak40>sonosax>r1 ?

[Nick Graham]

Anyone running Neumann ak40>sonosax>r1 ?

If the R1 and the R4 A/Ds are anything alike, I'd imagine it would sound quite nice. The R4 is definitely a big step up soundwise from the UA5.

[gewwang]

Anyone running Neumann ak40>sonosax>r1 ?

I've been running dpa4022>sonosax>r1 off and on since April 30th and been happy with the adc.

[silentmark]

Anyone running Neumann ak40>sonosax>r1 ?

I've been running dpa4022>sonosax>r1 off and on since April 30th and been happy with the adc.

With or without the Oade mods ?

[gewwang]

Anyone running Neumann ak40>sonosax>r1 ?

I've been running dpa4022>sonosax>r1 off and on since April 30th and been happy with the adc.

With or without the Oade mods ?

without mods, straight out of the box.

[Evil Taper]

Just over 2 hours on a 2gb disc....what about the LONG sets!  What mr. Wobbly here should really be asking is:

Will this improve over DPA 4061>SP-SPSB-1>Oade SBM-1>DIY Opti>JB3

That's what I'm really asking also.  To my ears the problem with the JB3 is the low levels no matter how hot you can get those 4061s.  Those mics sounds SIGNIFICANTLY better when they're running hot so what's the deal with the gain selection in these machines?

[Evil Taper]

"We now offer the Edirol R1 with line input upgrade installed for 525.00. An optional +6dB to +12dB of gain is available with this MOD. This enables the concert taper to use high output microphones line in, bypassing the R1's microphone input. This results in a vast improvement in signal quality for state of the art 24 bit recordings in a tiny package."---Oade site blip

All that I'm seeing that doesn't look desirable is the battery life, 2.5 hours....I like to record openers too, does it run on AA or dry cells or what?  Also the info on the Oade site states that this unit only accepts up to 2gb CF cards.  What is so nice about the JB3 is the long battery life and the ability to record as much as you can in a night without worrying about running out of space/time.  Also it doesn't look like there's a button lock on this unit so recording with the unit in the pocket might not be a good idea...something to consider for stealthing.  Taping a band who plays almost exactly 2 hours like Black Label Society might be impossible with this recorder.  Any other ideas...?

[Evil Taper]

I'm probably jumping the gun here but I have ALOT of upcomming shows for the fall concert season and this looks like a solve all unit for me.  I don't see any real dissadvantages here for stealthing since I've been recording to pseudo 16 bit via the JB3 until now.  The only thing that may pose a problem is the lack of a lock to not accidentally stop the recording, but you can jam up to 3 hours on the 2gb cards in 16 bit mode and an extra set of batteries is not a problem to sneak in.  Should be ordering tommorow and I'll be the guinea pig.  Should be a MAJOR upgrade from the rig I'm running now at least.

[hyperplane]

Evil Taper -

FWIW, a buddy of mine uses the R-1 for taping. he said there IS a Hold switch on the R-1, and i just took a gander at the Edirol R-1 manual (.pdf file), and it does have the Hold switch to help prevent any accidents while recording.

also, my friend uses regular alkaline AA batteries, and he never has a problem taping 2.5 hrs. having said that, i would imagine if you used Lithium Ion AA batteries, you'd have well over 3 hours worth of recording power.

oh, and he also told me that 4 GB CF cards work. although, there is the 2 GB limit (right at 2 hours and 5 minutes at 24/44.1) for recording, which someone in the "Microtrack"real world experiences" thread said Edirol was working on a fix for in a future firmware release.

hope this is of some help. happy taping.

[Evil Taper]

Badass.  I sure won't mind pulling a crystal clear 16 bit for shows I know will run over the 2 hour mark.  As good as the JB3 works, it definately has some ADC issues.  This looks like a sweet solution and I don't think I'll be any less than satisfied.  Hooray for taping metal with nice rigs

[zowie]

All that I'm seeing that doesn't look desirable is the battery life, 2.5 hours....I like to record openers too, does it run on AA or dry cells or what?  Also the info on the Oade site states that this unit only accepts up to 2gb CF cards.  What is so nice about the JB3 is the long battery life and the ability to record as much as you can in a night without worrying about running out of space/time.  Also it doesn't look like there's a button lock on this unit so recording with the unit in the pocket might not be a good idea...something to consider for stealthing.  Taping a band who plays almost exactly 2 hours like Black Label Society might be impossible with this recorder.  Any other ideas...?

No digital input.

[nickgregory]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

[gewwang]

All that I'm seeing that doesn't look desirable is the battery life, 2.5 hours....I like to record openers too, does it run on AA or dry cells or what?

That might be on alkalines. I run mine with 2600 mAh nimhs and a pair runs at least 4.5 hrs recording plus at least 2 hrs of playback running line in. I haven't run the full pair down all the way yet because I haven't had a need to tape more than 4 hours for a show with it yet.

Also the info on the Oade site states that this unit only accepts up to 2gb CF cards.

It takes 4GB CF cards. The remaining time on the display will only show as much as 2 hrs 12 mins left max when taping 24/44, but the space is there. I've had two 2 hr 11 min files on one 4GB before.

Also it doesn't look like there's a button lock on this unit so recording with the unit in the pocket might not be a good idea...something to consider for stealthing.  Taping a band who plays almost exactly 2 hours like Black Label Society might be impossible with this recorder.  Any other ideas...?

There's a hold button, I stealth it in my pocket.

Search the archives, most of this info has been posted before.

[zowie]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

And that's terrific.  But for "official" recording situations, like friends' bands and ensembles, I'd want to be able to have the option of using any of the fine 120v front ends.

[silentmark]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

How about compared to say, ummm, a modSBM1 ? 

[nickgregory]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

How about compared to say, ummm, a modSBM1 ? 

I actually thought it sounded very comparable to the t-mod SBM....not as warm and bloated as the w-mod sbm that most have, but very smooth and transparent sounding....george can probably chime in here as well as the tapes I heard were his...

[gewwang]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

And that's terrific, especially for stealthing.  But for "official" recording situations, like friends' bands and ensembles, I'd want to be able to have the option of using any of the fine 120v front ends.

Edirol makes an R4 which has a digital input

http://edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

[gewwang]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

How about compared to say, ummm, a modSBM1 ? 

I actually thought it sounded very comparable to the t-mod SBM....not as warm and bloated as the w-mod sbm that most have, but very smooth and transparent sounding....george can probably chime in here as well as the tapes I heard were his...

The first show I rolled with the R1 was sax>R1 vs sax>tmodsbm>dat and I thought the R1 sounded better so I sold the tmodsbm.

[zowie]

No digital input.

the A/D on this unit sounds remarkable...

And that's terrific, especially for stealthing.  But for "official" recording situations, like friends' bands and ensembles, I'd want to be able to have the option of using any of the fine 120v front ends.

Edirol makes an R4 which has a digital input

http://edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

I love everything about the R4 except the price. LOL

[WiFiJeff]

All that I'm seeing that doesn't look desirable is the battery life, 2.5 hours....I like to record openers too, does it run on AA or dry cells or what?  Also the info on the Oade site states that this unit only accepts up to 2gb CF cards.  What is so nice about the JB3 is the long battery life and the ability to record as much as you can in a night without worrying about running out of space/time.  Also it doesn't look like there's a button lock on this unit so recording with the unit in the pocket might not be a good idea...something to consider for stealthing.  Taping a band who plays almost exactly 2 hours like Black Label Society might be impossible with this recorder.  Any other ideas...?

I use lithium AAs in the R1, they last over 8 hours.

I have run 2, 4, and 8 GB CF cards in it.  The only problem is manually starting a new file every 2 GB (3 hours 18 minutes at 16/44, 2 hours 12 minutes at 24/44), and someone on the MT thread says that Edirol has a firmware upgrade in the works which will start a new file automatically (hope this is coming soon).

Jeff

[silentmark]

Thanks gents +T's, but it is making my life difficult, heh decisions, decisions, I think it is time to give Doug a call and chat about the R1 mods ...

WiFi, you said you can get 8 hours with lithiums, ever try an external power source ?

[WiFiJeff]

WiFi, you said you can get 8 hours with lithiums, ever try an external power source ?

No, can't see the need for one with the R1.  I get two ordinary concerts with a pair of lithium AAs (had to change every time to be safe with my DAT), on days when I'm going to two really long events (say a Wagner opera and a marathon chamber recital) I just take an extra set of AAs and an extra CF card.

Jeff

[MattinSTL]

+T Jeff... you are a real asset to this board for being so relatively new! Everytime I read one of these threads and see you so dominant on it I can't believe your post count isn't higher.

So with the R1 you can use any CF card as long as you break the recording... okay no problem.

Do you have any complaints about the R1 I/O?

What would you think of a combo like the MP-2 or MixPre and R1?

Considering you have the MT and the R1 what are your feelings between the two right now?

How about if I throw a stock pmd671 into this mix... and I'll buy it from Doug no matter what... so it can be modded later... but for now let's say it's stock... and it's being fed by the MP-2 or MixPre?

So that's 4 questions that I'd love to hear your answers to...   

[WiFiJeff]

.

Do you have any complaints about the R1 I/O?

What would you think of a combo like the MP-2 or MixPre and R1?

Considering you have the MT and the R1 what are your feelings between the two right now?

How about if I throw a stock pmd671 into this mix... and I'll buy it from Doug no matter what... so it can be modded later... but for now let's say it's stock... and it's being fed by the MP-2 or MixPre?

So that's 4 questions that I'd love to hear your answers to...   

I have been using the R1 with DPA 4060s and the DPA MMA6000 since January, getting very good results.  I have not used the internal mics nor the R1 preamp at all.   I have an R1 Oade modified for line-in improvements and I would imagine that an MP2 or MixPre should also be great to feed the R1.  I do not really see using something as big as the PMD671 or FR2 in the field (though, gear slut that I am, I have tried both, as well as the SD722, at home).  No problems with I/O, since I never thought of doing digi-in with it and the MMA6000 feeds it fine (I have used from 5dB to 20 dB gain, the MMA6000 goes as high as 37.5 dB gain).

The R1 is, I have found, super reliable.  I screwed up with it three times my first month (once recoverable and recovered), and since then have only lost one (actually 1/2) session when I let the batteries die, much more reliable than DAT.  It remains to be seen if the MT can get to that level, if it does, the size (1/3-1/2 the size of the R1, smaller than the R1 even when using a USB power box) and ability to do 24/96 will make it my recorder of choice.  But it's not there yet.

Jeff

[pfife]

Jeff, I know you are getting like 100 requests per day for things, but if you could take a size comparison photo between the MT and the R-1 I'd appreciate it immensely.

Another thing - I've had MUCH success getting my njb3 in past security by just claiming its an mp3 player.  R-1 owners, do you think the R-1 is passable as an mp3 player?

[Evil Taper]

$530 shipped second day air via fedex.  will be here tuesday   When he asked what my mics, power situation and taping prefferances were he recommend the +6db option and said that the +12db would be ok too but we went with the +6db to be on the safe side.  Shouldn't ever be clipping with this since the 4061s have at least a -10db pad without a preamp.  My jb3 levels are usually much lower than that even.  Don't really have a loud show to tape until the 4th but I might hit a jazz gig before then, time permitting. 

Now where do I go to get a deal on flash cards and what brands/type should I get?  Should I maybe get a 4gb and a 2gb just to be safe?

[pfife]

Now where do I go to get a deal on flash cards and what brands/type should I get?  Should I maybe get a 4gb and a 2gb just to be safe?

There are a couple pretty good priced ones listed in the Retail section.

[JasonSobel]

Jeff, I know you are getting like 100 requests per day for things, but if you could take a size comparison photo between the MT and the R-1 I'd appreciate it immensely.

I don't have an R-1 for photos, but I've posted photos of the microtrack next to my V3 and next to my D8, for size comparisons, over in the other thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=50364.225

[pfife]

Jeff, I know you are getting like 100 requests per day for things, but if you could take a size comparison photo between the MT and the R-1 I'd appreciate it immensely.

I don't have an R-1 for photos, but I've posted photos of the microtrack next to my V3 and next to my D8, for size comparisons, over in the other thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=50364.225

Thanks man, I saw those.  Fortunately, I was able to see one in person last night (freelunch) - so for the MT, I'm waiting for some sound samples... I'm extremely interested in the quality of the A/D's.  I believe Freelunch is using his tonight, so maybe that will give me an idea.

My suspicion is this: The R-1 is going to be a better unit sonically (esp. w/ Oade's mods), but significantly bigger.  I'm just looking to get an idea of how big they are in comparison (I know jeff has said the MT is about 1/2 the size of the R-1), before I make my decision as to which item to purchase.

[madman]

I was looking at the R1 or PMD660, the thing I don't like about the R1 is that even when the unit is "locked" you can still change levels with the dial.  Sometimes I like to put my recorder in my pocket and I don't need the levels getting all jacked up as a result.  I think Hi-MD may be my new recording medium using Hi-SP.  My old Sharp MD has seen better days, but it gets the job done and sounds pretty good feeding the 4061s into line-in. 

[pfife]

I was looking at the R1 or PMD660, the thing I don't like about the R1 is that even when the unit is "locked" you can still change levels with the dial.  Sometimes I like to put my recorder in my pocket and I don't need the levels getting all jacked up as a result. 

I hadn't thought of that, but that's kinda the situation with almost all the stealth gear I've ever had.  I had a recording come out with levels decreasing all the way through the recording because I kept bumping the knob on my Sbm-1.... just have to be really careful, I guess.

[madman]

I hadn't thought of that, but that's kinda the situation with almost all the stealth gear I've ever had.  I had a recording come out with levels decreasing all the way through the recording because I kept bumping the knob on my Sbm-1.... just have to be really careful, I guess.

That's the beauty of my ancient MD recorder, I slide the lever to "hold" and put it in my pocket and don't have to worry about levels.  Although most of the time I'll just hold it in my hand now while taping.  I think recorders should all have this feature, or have levels that are knobs where it "clicks" in for each setting.  Much harder to move those.

[blackmikito]

I was looking at the R1 or PMD660, the thing I don't like about the R1 is that even when the unit is "locked" you can still change levels with the dial.  Sometimes I like to put my recorder in my pocket and I don't need the levels getting all jacked up as a result. 

I hadn't thought of that, but that's kinda the situation with almost all the stealth gear I've ever had.  I had a recording come out with levels decreasing all the way through the recording because I kept bumping the knob on my Sbm-1.... just have to be really careful, I guess.

With the R-1 the input dial is not like on DAT or the SBM-1. It's actually kind of nice.  It's built in to the left side of the unit and practically flush. Like a typical walkman volume level. Not to mention that it is not overly moveable. Not saying that the dial is stiff, but that it's the kind of thing where if you had a piece of tape over it there' no chance it would move.  With DAT and the SBM, the dials were much easier to move.

Other pluses I see to the R-1 for the average taper is that it uses batteries as opposed to an internal power source. So much less room for error that way and so much more versatile on the whole. Especially for taping roadtrips and things like that where, although you might have a computer handy for show file transfers, you might not have the hours and hours it would take to reliably charge your MT before your next show, or if a show comes up on short notice that you decide to tape, where you couldn't do it because you don't have enough time to charge your MT. And even if you do go with the USB battery pack that people are now talking about (if they can even get that to work), you're kind of blowing the original idea of an "all in one" solution and adding yet one more piece of crucial gear to your chain (which I hate doing-> less is better for me). Besides the fact that the R-1 is pretty much guaranteed to work as effectively as it can for as long as it's shelf life is considering you're not just waiting for the internal battery to die (ipods anyone?).

With regards to the metering only showing one channel, this is no different than what we all had available with the Sony DAT's, pre SBM-1. Even though the Sony's showed different right and left, you could only control the one knob. So, again, no "loss" of functionality with the R-1.

Since I've already popped for the 2GB card, and since the firmware isn't updated yet for file splitting, I may just go and buy another 2GB card to take with to shows, so if it looks like the show is going to run longer than 2 hours, I can just pop the new card at the encore break. As well, I think I'd rather have two 2GB cards rather than one 4GB card. Always nice to have a backup, just like I used to do with DATs.

So far, the R-1 has proved to be a very reliable and great sounding unit, right out of the box, as advertised. Which is probably my biggest issue with the MT. The MT so far looks like an engineering nightmare, and they've been promoting it so heavily since last year, which reflects pretty badly on M-Audio since they obviously didn't pull it off.  I don't have much faith in them fixing all the issues with that thing.
And even if they do, by that time something else will probably have come along. Who knows how many things are in the works. Which is my ultimate point: I have shows to tape NOW, and I need something that works. If and when the MT ever gets fixed or something else comes along, then I'll buy that.  But for now, why get antsy?

[Evil Taper]

I sprung for this unit so quickly because I have taping runs till the end of the year starting on the 4th of October.  The data has looked good and I really don't think Oade would take the time to mod a unit they aren't confident in.  There's probably a reason they never did JB3s.  I think this thing will be very easy to crotch since I've not had issues crotching my JB3 even.  What I'm confused about though is how many files can you put on a flash card?  People make it sound like once you get that 2 hours on a card you can't put another one on too.  What's the real deal?

[goose]

WiFi, you said you can get 8 hours with lithiums, ever try an external power source ?

The R1 can be run on 3 volts (YES, 3) external power.  I have run it on my power runner battery, no problem.  I get at least 6 hours run time on 2500 mah rechargeables.

To answer evil taper: you can put as many files on the unit as you want until the CF card is full.

[Kindguy]

WiFi, you said you can get 8 hours with lithiums, ever try an external power source ?

The R1 can be run on 3 volts (YES, 3) external power.  I have run it on my power runner battery, no problem.  I get at least 6 hours run time on 2500 mah rechargeables.

To answer evil taper: you can put as many files on the unit as you want until the CF card is full.

How much gear do you actualy have?   

[pfife]

Is the r-1 larger than an NJB3?

I'm really leaning this way, because I know it will sound great... I just really need to be able to convince a security goon that its an mp3 player.

+Ts for info... this place rules.

[Evil Taper]

Smaller:

3-15/16 (W) x 5-5/16 (D) x 1-3/16 (H) inches

After crotching a jb3 this should be nothing.

[madman]

Can someone with an R1 see if the level adjustment/volume knob can be pulled off?  This seems like the easiest way to prevent accidental level changes, or maybe replaced with a smaller knob.  I'm thinking more and more about one of these since the mtracker seems to be a bit of a disappointment. 

[MattinSTL]

madman... as I understand it the big knob you see on the right side of the face is volume for playback but doesn't change the recording level.

I think this "input level" wheel type adjustment on the side is what you actually set the recording levels with. I expect that you and I were thinking the same thing which is "what the hell would they have that big knob on the face for!? It would be SO easy to knock the rec levels off!"

So hopefully they were smarter then that... and it looks like they were, but hopefully one of the guys who's already posted in this thread will clear this up 100%.

Is that fat knob on the face STRICTLY for playback functions?

[madman]

Ah--I thought that monster knob in the front also did the input levels.  Hadn't seen that side pic before, thanks!  The taping it down option seems pretty likely with a knob like that.  Maybe a replacement of that knob is still possible, my guess is it's just a knob on a pot to control the input level. 

[MattinSTL]

I thought the same thing when I saw the unit... "tape THAT knob down  " but then when I saw this side job I figured it would be zero problem to put an inch of gaffer tape on it. (I'm a video guy and I can tell you that gaffer tape is the shit you want... sticks to ANYTHING and pulls off of anything... clean as new.)

I want to start getting a clear picture of which recorder I want... but I guess it's a compliment to the manufacturers that it's so hard deciding... and to Doug for that matter.

Doug says the serious guys are all going with modded Marantz, and that hobbiests get the R1 or MicroTrack. I don't think I'm alone in considering any of all 4 of the possibilities... but man it sure is hard nailing this thing down. It's easy to see the appeal of the MicroTrack... but I'm not finding too much negative press on the R1... so now it looks like it's between ACM 660, stock 671, or R1... possibly stock OR modded.

[Evil Taper]

The Marantz units have an awful lot of buttons and knobs to make them comfortable to stealth with.  They look nice for open taping though.

[gewwang]

The big knob is used in conjunction with the menu button to toggle between menu settings. I have pulled it off and can navigate the menu without it. The playback volume is the little adjuster on the top of the unit.

[Evil Taper]

1 4GB disc should be able to pull either 4 hours 24bit, 6 hours 16bit or 2 hours 24 bit 3 hours 16 bit correct?  That should probably be enough record time to pull all acts at any non jam band non festival show.  Taping even 3 hours of music at a show is pretty rare since most headliners play 70-90 minute sets anyway.  I can't wait to really give this thing a battery of tests from different kinds of situations and music.

[gewwang]

1 4GB disc should be able to pull either 4 hours 24bit, 6 hours 16bit or 2 hours 24 bit 3 hours 16 bit correct?

24/44 - 4hr 24min
16/44 - 6hr +

I can't wait to really give this thing a battery of tests from different kinds of situations and music.

I own one so it already has been.

[Evil Taper]

Riggity rad!

[WiFiJeff]

Jeff, I know you are getting like 100 requests per day for things, but if you could take a size comparison photo between the MT and the R-1 I'd appreciate it immensely.

Another thing - I've had MUCH success getting my njb3 in past security by just claiming its an mp3 player.  R-1 owners, do you think the R-1 is passable as an mp3 player?

I will try to post the pictures tomorrow.  No way an R1 could pass as an mp3 player, except maybe a pre-first generation one or an audiophile tube mp3 player!  Also, I agree with the folks who tape down the R1 input volume knob, mine's never been used and I generally forget it's there.

Sorry to respond slow, but I was out taping tonight, and have two concerts tomorrow and two Saturday (with the R1), busy busy.

Jeff

[blackmikito]

A list of my why I personally like the R-1 (and perhaps why you'd like them too) and why I'm not currently interested in the Marantz models and the Microtrack:

-The size. Just because the MT is the size of a deck of cards doesn't make it anymore useful if now I also have to get a USB battery pack, and a stereo dual 1/4 inch to 1/8 adapter (to use the MT line in) just to make it work at minimal expectations. Sure, those additional things don't take up all that much space, but neither does the R-1. I had no problem crotching DAT, so this thing is an absolute breeze. And considering my rig is mics->homemade batt box->R-1 line in, I'm pretty much as light-traveling as I could get.  Obviously the Marantz units are huge in comparison to either the R-1 or MT, and therefore not an option for me (and I suspect most of you who want something they can open tape AND stealth).

-Battery powered. It uses only two AA batteries and not an internal power supply. As has already been proven, the MT's battery life is questionable at best. And like I said before, internal power supplies have only so much time before they quit holding charge, which pretty much means you can only use the MT only so long over time before it will stop powering long enough to record a show of any length, which leaves you with having to have the internal battery replaced. Apple paid out big because their ipods weren't holding even half of the advertised juice. And already, people are resorting to hacking their ipods just so they can replace the battery themselves. That's nuts, especially since with a decent set of AA rechargeables you have easy-access power with the most minimal charge time. So, with the R-1, you can switch out batteries any time you want. And batteries are available at every grocery store and gas station in the country. And since it only uses two, any standard pack of four gives you two backup.  I don't have the time to be worrying about "geez, did I charge the MT long enough? Am i ruining the charge cycle by not letting the battery completely run out? Will I have enough power?"  It totally defeats the purpose of stealthing if I have to be checking the unit every ten minutes to make sure it hasn't died, not to mention waiting three+ hours for it to even charge each time I want to use it. This whole powering issue is one of those things that I have no idea where someone decided a "permanent" power supply was better than a removeable/replaceable one. If it's not broke....

-Easy layout and use. The R-1's button function is like a DAT or traditional walkman/stereo, so there's very little "re-adjusting" to be done. It has play/stop/volume/record/input buttons that are extremely easy to adapt to and are quick to set. Apart from the simple presets of your recording (bit rate, sample rate, stereo) there is no additional menu scrolling and click after click. In fact, the menu is as stripped down, intuitive, and as straight forward as can get, dare I say idiot-proof. To record, hit the record button twice, adjust levels, and then put the unit on Hold.  Plus, the location of the input level button makes it so you don't have to worry about wrecking your levels after you put the recorder in your bag. It's hard enough to mess up even without tape over it. I give similar praise to the Hold button and power switch. An extremely well designed unit, button wise. Oh yeah, and for you people asking about the Value Wheel...it has nothing to do with your active recording. Once you have the Hold button on, it's frozen as well. And no, it isn't the input knob, it's just for scrolling the menu.

-The screen light. It's a dark orange/red that is much more stealthy IMHO than the bright blue light the MT has. Sure it's nit-picky, but it's a nice feature.

-The R-1 actually works, the MT does not. Half-working does not count. You don't buy a car that has an engine that doesn't start, but decide to get it anyway because the windows roll down now do you?  There is no telling when the MT, if ever, will be working correctly.  And by then, the R-1 can only have gotten better as well. Power issues appear to be the least of the MTs problems.  And even if the MT was working, I still think the physical design of the R-1 is better. I'm all for more manual control and less menu scrolling.

-Last but not least, the R-1 sounds WONDERFUL. People on this board have already expressed that the R-1 is AT LEAST as good as mod sbm-1, and that's stock. Coupled with the fact that this unit works OUT OF BOX and is reliable, I am more than happy to stay in 24/44.1 for a long while.  Time is money, and when there are shows to tape the last thing I need to be worrying about is whether or not my recorder is gonna let me down.

[hyperplane]

thanks for your own thoughts, blackmikito. +T to you.

i had been hoping, VERY MUCH, that the Microtrack would replace my M1. even if the Microtrack were working reliably out of the box, the two issues - albeit "small" ones, but they do seem more and more like "deal breakers" to me - that make the Microtrack less appealing to me are:

1) the 'permanent' battery. like a lot of others, i would much prefer it taking AA batteries. i don't want to feel obligated to carry a USB pack (no matter how small it may be) to power the Microtrack as a "just in case"... it's another piece of equipment, and since most of the shows i tape have to be stealth, i want to keep the number of pieces minimal (mics > power supply for mics > recorder). period.

2) the need for 1/4" to mini-plug adaptor to use either of my sets of mics. again, this isn't a huge issue, by any means, but it's yet another drawback. it's either that or use an attenuator. either way, it would mean adding another piece of gear to my current setup. i know, a plug adaptor or attenuator is not that big, but again, personally, i want to keep my setup as small and stealthy as possible.

the only two drawbacks, in my personal views, that  i can see as far as the R-1 are as follows:

1) it's not as small as, or smaller than, the Sony PCM-M1. (not a  huge deal, i used to tape with a D7.)

2) i wish the R-1 taped at 48 kHz. since i do like to burn my untouched masters to DVDs to listen to (without breaks) in my DVD player, it would be nice to not have to mess with resampling/upsampling from 44.1>48. also, for the very few artists who i do tape who are cool with taping, i usually will video tape, and hence it's nice to tape at 48 kHz so again, no resampling needed for the resulting DVD.

but to me, these are much more minimal  than, e.g. if it didn't record reliably, having to charge it up and be concerned over powering the recorder, having to use an attenuator/adaptor.

the bottom line for me is, if the R-1 were smaller and recorded at 48 kHz, i wouldn't have even waited to see how the Microtrack works out of the box. 

[Evil Taper]

is there an audible differance in sample rates?

[pfife]

I hear the difference between 16 and 24 bit.   I don't hear the difference between 44.1 and 48 when in 16 bit.   People have stated here before though that there is an audible difference between 44.1 and 48 when in 24 bit.

[WiFiJeff]

Here a some size comparisons:

Jeff

[silentmark]

Don't you have to upsample the R1's 24/44.1 to 48 for listening purposes ? I know nothing about the 24 bit world, but will in the future, another reason I am still torn between the MT and the R1. As of right now I am leaning towards the R1 ...

[zowie]

 No way an R1 could pass as an mp3 player, except maybe [. . .] an audiophile tube mp3 player! 

Hilarous.  Play compromised compressed files through a glass bottle and charge $1400 for the player and you open up a whole new market. Sam Telig can write that he bought five of them.

[MattinSTL]

+T Blackmikito... you layed it out pretty good there. I'm an oddball on this forum 'cause I'll never go stealth even one time... I'm looking at this stuff to do audio for video and it'll be right on my hip, so size isn't really an issue for me.

I'm a total loss as to why it won't do 48 though? Is that harder to engineer? Even 16/48 seems normal...

EDIT: Could one of you give me an experienced opinion on choosing either an MixPre>R1 or else the ACM 660? I'm talking absolute sound quality. The R1 can even be 24bit. Which do you think will result in the cleanest recording of voice?

[blackmikito]

I'm pretty sure that the reason the Edirol lacks 48khz is because it's not at all intended for any kind of "pro" market, much less tapers. It's more intended for musicians and the general home studio buyer. Which probably explains why it's so user-friendly.

I'm guessing the 24bit inclusion is because most things are running or promoting 24 bit these days, especially Edirol products, whereas the average consumer isn't really looking at anything higher than 44.1khz (not to mention most probably don't even know what that means, besides the phrase "Cd quality").  In this day and age of mp3s, I think plenty of people are only becoming somewhat more aware of bitrates and how they affect the quality of the sound.  But apart from audiophiles and pro video/audio guys, I think 48khz is a ways off from being the mainstream (dvd-a is just beginning to takeoff).  Not to mention that it seems to have been overshadowed by the 96khz bug everyone seems to have, which I think is simply because everyone now has the idea of it being "the best".  Not too long ago 24 bit was "the best", but now that goal has already been achieved, we've all pretty much forgotten it. 

For anyone who's been going over this whole MT vs. R-1 vs. Marantz thing, don't lose track of how far this technology has come and how much farther it will likely be going: Something better will be coming along just around the corner.  Unlike the Sony DATs or the MDs, this technology has SO much more potential. Not just from a size perspective, but from a quality perspective. Whereas Tascam and Sony were the original makers of some of the most common units back in the day, today we have Edirol (Roland), M-Audio, Digidesign, Grace, and tons of other "new guys" who have yet to even step up to the plate with their own products.  This technology will just keep getting better and better. As for now, I think I find it premature to blow $400 on a product that doesn't work. Why not save the money and wait 9 months for the next piece of gear to come along, or instead buy a product that works. 

My current thought is that the price of these things is only going to stay so low for so long. Now that the R-1 and MT have started at the $400 range, I'm not so sure we'll be seeing too many more recorders at this price point.  I assume that they can only go up from here. We already know the Sonosax is going to be priced outrageous, but I'm betting you're going to start seeing the development of palm-sized multitrack recorders with way more features and much higher quality design.  Perhaps we might find out in the future that these current recorders were as cheap as they're gonna get. 

[madman]

Blackmikito, or there's always the option of buying what's out now, selling it later and again upgrading to the latest and greatest.  That's what geeks do best!

[MattinSTL]

I may be a geek... but I'm a poor geek... so I gotta' stick with proven choices. I cancelled my MT today and I'm going to decide between MixPre> R1 or ACM 660 or stock 671.

So now we're down to 3.

[zowie]

I may be a geek... but I'm a poor geek... so I gotta' stick with proven choices. I cancelled my MT today and I'm going to decide between MixPre> R1 or ACM 660 or stock 671.

So now we're down to 3.

Just curious -- why isn't the R-4 in contention.  Price?

[MattinSTL]

Yeah I like the R4, but a 671 would be maxing me out. That's why I said I'd get either the ACM 660 from Doug or else a STOCK 671 from Doug... that way I could always send the 671 back to him later and pay for the mods when I have more cash.

Otherwise I would have said "modded 671" in the showdown.

[blackmikito]

For me, it's the size of the R-4, which is probably due to the fact that they made the box to be a "fully loaded" recording studio.
But, since I'm only ever going to be taping to 2 track stereo, with 2 mics, and I'm mainly going for stealth, considering the R-4 would be in the same ball park as considering computer notebook taping. I've already got the computer, so I would only need to add a nice pre/ad in front. But, again, that would be if I was open-taping, which I don't normally do.   

I'm guessing that if Marantz could've made their units smaller, they would've. Same with Edirol. Perhaps what we're seeing with the MT is an effort to force as many things together that, although they would all be great to have in one unit, can't really fit in a unit that size yet. Already, in the other threads, the talk has resorted to "well, it's okay that it only gives 30v phantom, since I was going to be running a pre in front" and "the inputs are really snug, so I've gonna shave the case down a little around the inputs to make them fit."  I don't know if it's polishing a turd or squeezing blood from a stone.  I applaud the efforts nonetheless, cuz I was looking forward to this thing being the bee's knees too. But c'mon...there is only so much firmware can fix. 

[MattinSTL]

So blackmikito... I don't know if you can venture an educated/experienced opinion for me... but what do you think... MixPre > R1 or ACM modded 660?

Anyone else wanna' throw down an opinion between JUST those two?

[Evil Taper]

OAde said I'd have my R1 on tuesday but it's not even shipped yet....wtf

[blackmikito]

So blackmikito... I don't know if you can venture an educated/experienced opinion for me... but what do you think... MixPre > R1 or ACM modded 660?

Anyone else wanna' throw down an opinion between JUST those two?

The main con I see in the ACM 660, although I’m sure that it’s a fantastic unit, is that the advanced concert mod removes the ability for the recorder to do line-in, in favor of maximizing the xlr inputs. Which means, that using a separate pre in front wouldn’t be an option and you would have to put all of your faith into the sound and performance of the unit.  Compared to the R-1, which has a useless mic input, but does have a clean line-in, you have the flexibility to use the pre of your choice or even go straight line-in. 

As well, with the R-1 you maintain the ability to use the unit for other recording uses at shows, like daisy-chaining onto someone else’s rig, or board patching.  And if you also have the separate pre, you maintain the ability to use that separately as well, either for home-studio use or as a front-end to laptop taping.  And, should other newer recorders like the MT start coming out, that lack a decent or comparable pre to the one you already have, you still have the flexibility to switch out the recorder and keep your pre.  Or if a new and better pre comes out, you can switch that out too and keep the recorder.

Price-wise, even though the ACM 660 at $709 is cheaper than a combo R-1 + Pre rig at $1000-$1300, with the R-1/pre rig you maintain the ability to purchase them one at a time, with the R-1’s $400 price tag a little easier to bear for us not-so-rich types, and you still have a fully useable and excellent unit by itself.

Lastly, the Marantz unit is too large.  I could easily fit the R-1 (or DAT) and a similar sized pre into a show, but I really don’t think I could squeeze the Marantz down there, even without mics.  But, I think that the size issue would be the only one mentioned that wouldn’t matter for open tapers.

Oh yeah, and the R-1 does 24 bit, 660 only does 16 bit.  660 uses 4 AA batteries, R-1 uses 2.

[MattinSTL]

Thanks for all the input guys... 99.999% of you are a real asset to the community.

Thanks to everybody who contributed in this thread and the others which discussed the "final four" as I'd call them.

I'm an open taper... as open as it gets actually. I'm the guy with the ton of shit strapped around my neck and fiddling with knobs in a bag full of stuff facing up at me.

After a lot of consideration my rig will be stock 671 fed line-in by an FP24... and I'm done for now. That broke the bank.

By the way... BRAND NEW FP-24 for $450! (how about THAT deal?) Follow my ebay link to the last one before it's gone.

[zowie]

PMD671 + FP24 > R-4   

[MattinSTL]

You mean it's a bad choice 'cause the price together is over an R4?

[zowie]

Price is a tad higher.  Rig is more complicated. Less recording time.  2 tracks instead of 4.  No meaningful size advantage.  But at the end of the day if the sound is noticeably superior -- which I just don't know -- then it certainly might be the better way to go.

Not saying it's a bad choice, just curious about rational. 

Edit: Especialy if people come to agree with nicspics that an ACM mod 671 sounds better than a stock ACM with an extrernal pre and, I'm estimating, costs less too.

[sleepypedro]

Edirol makes an R4 which has a digital input

http://edirol.com/products/info/r4.html

dunno if this has been posted yet as i'm 5 days late to the party on this thread, but the digital input on the r4 resynchs to its own internal clock

[MattinSTL]

Price is a tad higher.  Rig is more complicated. Less recording time.  2 tracks instead of 4.  No meaningful size advantage.  But at the end of the day if the sound is noticeably superior -- which I just don't know -- then it certainly might be the better way to go.

Not saying it's a bad choice, just curious about rational.

Honestly I don't know if the sound will be any better and it very well could be NOT as good! I'm in an odd situation of needing to tweek levels really frequently... and I wanted some nice fat knobs on the pre. Also there are times that I'll use one thing or the other by itself.

For my use of audio I probably don't fit into these forums too well... For me it's mainly location sound for video.

[Evil Taper]

Here's some R1 vs JB3 pics:

[liverecording2004]

Hey all!

Concerning Microtrack vs R-1
Given the bug-reports --> I´m especially worried about the reported freezing of the unit when starting a recording - which seems to be anything more than a simple bug  )  which one would you recommend as being the more stabile unit ...

Should one by the Microtrack and hope for the bugs being all sorted out in future firmware releases ?

Sound-Quality: I have checked out the Maximum-Gain Sample at Oade --> For a High-Tech Device I hear a lot of hum ..  Any comments on that ...

Again, thank you all for being such a great user community!

cheers
liverecording (vienna, austria)

[Evil Taper]

I guess it really depends on the situations you'll be taping and when you need a unit by.  The Microtracker is looking like a big bust right now with all of the firmware issues and battery problems.  If you're planning on stealthing you may as well pass on the Microtracker unless you wanna also carry around a battery sled and an external ADC or a 1/4" line adapted.  I'm gonna try this Oade mod R1 out saturday (Zeke) and see how I like the sound and stealth ability of this unit.  I've got alot of shows to tape in the next month or two so I'll get some real field testing done in different types of situations and environments.  I'm hoping 4061 + Oade R1 = sick tapes

If you're just open taping though there's other options that are proven to work great.  A lappy with an audiophile card can record at extremely high resolutions and rates or the bigger flash card units are proven to perform very well.  Without decent mics though it's not really gonna matter how nice your recorder is, buy those first.

[liverecording2004]

Thanx Evil!

I´m mostly taping jazz ... so the soundspectrum is very wide (ranging from low-key-improvisations to very loud free-jazz) ...  I was looking for a semi-professional (DAT-Quality) small all-in-one box ... preferabely hassle-free  ...

Concerning the  R-1 I like the idea of being able to change batteries (which gives me unlimited energy during a festival - this could be the crucial point for me !)

Could you please elaborate on what exactly the Oade Mod are? Do they affect size (I want the device to be as stealthable as possible) 

Again thank you ... I wish you nice recordings with your equipment ...

[pfife]

No, the Oade Mod doesn't change the size.   The only mod he does on the R-1 is a T-Mod, short for "transparency mod" - He also does these modifications on the UA-5.  If you do a search for T-Mod on TS, surely you can find some discussions about the sonic qualities of the mod.

Thanks for the pics Evil.

[Todd R]

Sound-Quality: I have checked out the Maximum-Gain Sample at Oade --> For a High-Tech Device I hear a lot of hum ..  Any comments on that ...

I would want to know what Oade means by maximum gain.  Is it the maximum gain you can get when the MT is set to the High gain on the L/M/H with the levels maxed, or is it that plus the +27db gain boost found in the menu system?  If the latter, who cares?  That 27db gain boost setting is useless.  From the manual, it appears it is nothing more than digital scaling.  Which, first off, is going to introduce (or greatly amplify) noise.  If this is what Oade used, it is no wonder it sounds really bad.  Secondly, there is no need to ever use it, IME.  It doesn't do anything you can't do with any sound processing package in post, and if you do it in post, you might get away with far less digital scaling gain than +27db.

[zowie]

So why not call or email Oade and ask.

[Todd R]

Just did, we'll see what his response is.  I'd be a bit surprised if he used that BS +27db scaling, but who knows.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Anyone know what the gain range of the R-1 is?    722, for example, is -10 to 70 dB. I checked the edirol site but specs were limited.

[Savior_Self]

Thanks!  Well thought out and said ... I can FINALLY sleep at night.  No shit, for three-four weeks I have done nothing but labor over which one to get.  I purchased a Marantz, but the damn thing was SO BIG that I had issues getting it into places.  Between the size and having to program it (even though you can have presets), made it more of a pain in the ass than anything else.  MiniDisc was O.K., but not enough recording time and swaping the discs every 74-80 minutes is a pain (and ATRAC is lossy as well)... DAT's dead,  so it looks like the Edirol R1 is my choice.
Thanks again!

A list of my why I personally like the R-1 (and perhaps why you'd like them too) and why I'm not currently interested in the Marantz models and the Microtrack:

-The size. Just because the MT is the size of a deck of cards doesn't make it anymore useful if now I also have to get a USB battery pack, and a stereo dual 1/4 inch to 1/8 adapter (to use the MT line in) just to make it work at minimal expectations. Sure, those additional things don't take up all that much space, but neither does the R-1. I had no problem crotching DAT, so this thing is an absolute breeze. And considering my rig is mics->homemade batt box->R-1 line in, I'm pretty much as light-traveling as I could get.  Obviously the Marantz units are huge in comparison to either the R-1 or MT, and therefore not an option for me (and I suspect most of you who want something they can open tape AND stealth).

-Battery powered. It uses only two AA batteries and not an internal power supply. As has already been proven, the MT's battery life is questionable at best. And like I said before, internal power supplies have only so much time before they quit holding charge, which pretty much means you can only use the MT only so long over time before it will stop powering long enough to record a show of any length, which leaves you with having to have the internal battery replaced. Apple paid out big because their ipods weren't holding even half of the advertised juice. And already, people are resorting to hacking their ipods just so they can replace the battery themselves. That's nuts, especially since with a decent set of AA rechargeables you have easy-access power with the most minimal charge time. So, with the R-1, you can switch out batteries any time you want. And batteries are available at every grocery store and gas station in the country. And since it only uses two, any standard pack of four gives you two backup.  I don't have the time to be worrying about "geez, did I charge the MT long enough? Am i ruining the charge cycle by not letting the battery completely run out? Will I have enough power?"  It totally defeats the purpose of stealthing if I have to be checking the unit every ten minutes to make sure it hasn't died, not to mention waiting three+ hours for it to even charge each time I want to use it. This whole powering issue is one of those things that I have no idea where someone decided a "permanent" power supply was better than a removeable/replaceable one. If it's not broke....

-Easy layout and use. The R-1's button function is like a DAT or traditional walkman/stereo, so there's very little "re-adjusting" to be done. It has play/stop/volume/record/input buttons that are extremely easy to adapt to and are quick to set. Apart from the simple presets of your recording (bit rate, sample rate, stereo) there is no additional menu scrolling and click after click. In fact, the menu is as stripped down, intuitive, and as straight forward as can get, dare I say idiot-proof. To record, hit the record button twice, adjust levels, and then put the unit on Hold.  Plus, the location of the input level button makes it so you don't have to worry about wrecking your levels after you put the recorder in your bag. It's hard enough to mess up even without tape over it. I give similar praise to the Hold button and power switch. An extremely well designed unit, button wise. Oh yeah, and for you people asking about the Value Wheel...it has nothing to do with your active recording. Once you have the Hold button on, it's frozen as well. And no, it isn't the input knob, it's just for scrolling the menu.

-The screen light. It's a dark orange/red that is much more stealthy IMHO than the bright blue light the MT has. Sure it's nit-picky, but it's a nice feature.

-The R-1 actually works, the MT does not. Half-working does not count. You don't buy a car that has an engine that doesn't start, but decide to get it anyway because the windows roll down now do you?  There is no telling when the MT, if ever, will be working correctly.  And by then, the R-1 can only have gotten better as well. Power issues appear to be the least of the MTs problems.  And even if the MT was working, I still think the physical design of the R-1 is better. I'm all for more manual control and less menu scrolling.

-Last but not least, the R-1 sounds WONDERFUL. People on this board have already expressed that the R-1 is AT LEAST as good as mod sbm-1, and that's stock. Coupled with the fact that this unit works OUT OF BOX and is reliable, I am more than happy to stay in 24/44.1 for a long while.  Time is money, and when there are shows to tape the last thing I need to be worrying about is whether or not my recorder is gonna let me down.