Topic: Nagra BB+

[jlykos]

I want a great sounding machine that is still portable enough for field use and at a price I can afford that is also a Nagra. That's a tough set of requirements.

I have checked out all the lesser priced recorders and some seem good. But, they are not professional machines...

I think you're being a bit harsh by concluding that all recorders you've found below $1800 are "not professional", and therefore inferior to the BB+.
I understand that street price for the BB+ is $2400, so you've been offered a good bargain:
http://www.pro-sound.com/R/SNAGARES.html

But since you're on a budget, I'd be interested to hear what mics you intend to run with the recorder? It would make little sense spending $1800 on the recorder if you put $500 mics in front of it.

You could easily find an SD 702 in the yard sale for less, not to mention other popular 24bit units here (DR-680, R-44, MR-1000, FR-2, PMD-661 with advanced mods for ambient recording).
That would give you more money to spend on mics, unless you already have stellar gear for all situations mentioned above (nature, trains, music, which all would benefit from different mics).

HI Sunjan,
You have a good point. Let's work with facts first. The BB+ in addition to the optional extras price out at $3000. So, the deal is better than you indicated. I can't claim that the sub $1800 machines are not as good or less professional than the BB+. But, the fact is that Nagra has been the pro's choice for decades. True, the competition is tougher in our digital age. But, I'll still go with the company that has the reputation. And I am a true lover of great, professional equipment. Test equipment is a good example. When I had my hi fi repair shop, I had all Tektronix test equipment. I tend to look at most other test equipment as junk. Most of it is junk. Working with Tektronix equipment is a joy in so many ways and makes my efforts better and more efficient. I still have all the equipment in my home shop. My cameras are all Nikon top of the line. Again, a joy. The term "professional" actually means something eventhough the term is used very loosly as a mark of merit. So, the only way to tell is look at what the pro's use. They very often use Nagra (and Nikon and Canon).

While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.

My entry into this activity is a process and it can't happen overnight. There's too much to learn and too much experience to be gained and all this takes time.

Microphones are a tough call. I decided to not spend a fortune on great mic's at the beginning. I bought two AKG C 1000 mic's. I know these are not great mic's. They are good though. They will do as I go through the learning process. And I can afford them. As time goes on I plan to upgrade as necessary. It's a little like hi fi systems, with which I have over 50 years of experience. Most folks can't go out and buy their dream system if they even know what that is and usually they don't. Instead, they must grow into it, trading, buying used, experimenting until they finally learn what they want and can afford it. Mic's are like speakers. You can buy $10,000 speakers and have fine sound. But you can buy $50,000 systems and have great sound. Unless you are rich, you must take the steps in between to reach your goal. I am taking the gradual route. Obtaining a Nagra is a good first step.

Sparky

Sorry, but I think that your plan is a little bit backwards.  Microphones make a *much* more significant change in sound quality of a recording than does the recorder, preamplifier, or A/D converter.  I would put my money in the microphones first and then get a good recorder than the other way around.  I realize that you want "the best," but AKG C1000 microphones are not that, nor are they even in "the good" category IMO.  True, you may be getting a good deal on the recorder, but you will be able to make much higher quality recordings if you allocated your funds to spend $1800 on the microphones and $300 on the recorder instead of the other way around.  Even if you spent $300 on the recorder right now, you could get something like a Sony M10 and then sell it later for like $250, which would be a whole $50 depreciation on your $2100 investment.  For $1800, you could get good enough microphones where you would never need to purchase another set.  Besides, recording technology moves really fast; cheaper recorders are usually the way to go so you don't plow $2000 into an "all in one" unit that will become obsolete when 32 bit, 384 khz comes around or whatever the hell we will listen to in the future.  The mics will still be there, however.

But, hey, it's your money.

[TNJazz]

I bought two AKG C 1000 mic's. I know these are not great mic's. They are good though.

No offense, but no they are most definitely NOT good.  I'd use them in a pinch, but only if I needed to put a nail in a wall and couldn't find my hammer.

While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.

Yes, and you will most certainly pay for your choice of microphones in this case.  This may be a little strong and it's strictly my opinion, but personally I'm hard pressed to come up with a worse microphone that has EVER been produced.  I would revisit the suggestions above from sunjan and jlykos to put more money into microphones and not worry about the recorder as much.  Your ears will thank you in the end.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

We all have our preferences...

Recorder technology is still rapidly improving, while getting less expensive.

The same cannot be said for great mics.  Over the long term, they hold their value, or even increase.  There are some very good imported products coming to market.  I don't hear anyone holding them up to great mics, and I question their resale down the road, and the ability to get service in 10 or 20 years.

In terms of getting a great result *today*, I'd contend you'd be so much further along spending $2K on mics and $1k on your pre-amp and recorder.   With the Nagra and those AKGs, I think you would get good or very good results at best.

As for the AKG cards, a lot of folks seem to like the AT 3032 omnis.   I suspect they would produce better nature recordings.  They are quite affordable if you can find them - they are discontinued.

Of course, I tend to believe form follows function.  No recorder, no matter how "professional", can make up for what is lost with inferior mics.

Are you "covered" in terms of wind control?

[page]

As for the AKG cards, a lot of folks seem to like the AT 3032 omnis.   I suspect they would produce better nature recordings.  They are quite affordable if you can find them - they are discontinued.

Of course, I tend to believe form follows function.  No recorder, no matter how "professional", can make up for what is lost with inferior mics.

yeah, it's a sweet deal, but if you have X amount of cash, I'd get a set of nice DPAs and then spend a little coin on a preamp and cheap recorder than get the nagra and the C1000s.

[Karma]

HI All,
Wow, you guy's are ripping me hard. Your opinions of the AKG mics are not universal at all. I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them? And who are you? Is your opinion better than those who like the mic? And, for that matter, who are they? In truth, you are offering opinions that I did not ask for. I will find out for myself. It's the only way.

If I were to ask a hundred people which is their favorite mic, I would get 100 different answers. Further, many would criticize other folks for their choices. So who has the best answers? I don't know and there is no way of finding out short of using the mics and making my judgment.

These mics are not show stoppers. If I don't like them, I can sell them at not a great loss.

And I think your views on the recorders are misguided. Consider the pre-amps in any machine. Are they important? You bet they are. Do you think that great pre-amps come cheap? They don't. Do you think they are less important than the mics? I don't think so. They are both important. So, I say, buy good pre-amps. I'm going to do that.

And I'm willing to bet that most of you have never even seen a Nagra must less used one. Even more restrictive, used the same one I'm considering. Thus, I must discount your views. You are guessing based upon no personal information. This happens too much on the internet.

In the world of hi fi I have found that amplification is just as important as great speakers. In fact they must work together to produce great sound. It's called symbiosis. The same is true with mics and pre-amps. These mics are not the final word. They are just to get started. I notice that none of you have mentioned the really expensive mics. What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic? Something better? Are you willing to spend that much? I'll bet not. Why, because you don't place a great value on the fine quality sound which the great mics are capable of. But I am willing to spend that much. Just not now. I'm not ready for that level of quality.

So, get off your high horse's. I know my style and I don't expect you to agree. But you could at least try to see my view.

Sparky

[TNJazz]

In the world of hi fi I have found that amplification is just as important as great speakers. In fact they must work together to produce great sound. It's called symbiosis. The same is true with mics and pre-amps.

True.  Your combo of C1000s>Nagra is kind of like getting a high end amp and running it to some "white van" speakers though.  No one's saying "don't buy the Nagra" because your view of preamps being important is correct.  The thing is, it's all about "garbage in, garbage out".  The microphones you use will make a much more significant difference in your end result.

What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic?

I know what I get from my main mics, and trust me I know what comes out of an AKG C1000 too.  The two are so far apart that there's no way the recorder and preamp could even begin to make a difference.  You are approaching this the wrong way and this forum is full of people who know that and are trying to help you so that you don't look back on a wasted investment (and no we are obviously not talking about the Nagra).

So, get off your high horse's. I know my style and I don't expect you to agree. But you could at least try to see my view.

Seriously?

[Javier Cinakowski]

Karma, did you come here to get an opinion, or did you come here to have your opinion re-enforced, it sounds like the later to me.

my $0.02 sounds a lot like the others:
I agree that C1000's aren't very good sounding mics at any price point.  I also agree that the mics are FAR more important than the preamp.  You can find a used modded PMD660 or fr2le for less than $300 that will hold its own against much more expensive recorders.  The mics are the biggest difference.  The mics are a mechanical device that vary greatly amongst manufacture and model.  Preamps are not nearly as critical.  A preamp with decent specs will perform like another preamp with decent specs. 

[Karma]

HI javier,
I never asked for an opinion about the mics. This thread was started to find out about Nagra's. Reference the thread title. However, as much as you are ripping me it won't do any good. I will follow my own path and you will follow yours. Experience is the only teacher that counts.

But, as a point of interest, would you guy's like to exactly tell me what is wrong with the C1000's. You've done nothing more than generalize. Give me some real descriptions of the sonic differences.

And, BTW, I do realize the difference between bad, good, and great. Mostly, it can be determined by price and then stylistic differences within a price range. While I may be a beginner at this type of recording, I have great tape recorders for 40 years and have done a large amount of recording. Does this experience apply here. Yes, I think so. But not entirely because of the constant change to the technology.

[newplanet7]

Look, no one is ripping on you. They are giving you advice on the choice of mic pairing with your recorder of choice.
The mics are the first to report the sound, and shouldn't be the weakest link by any means.
In your set-up they are the weakest link. Why pair something bottom shelf with something top shelf?

No one is saying the pre-amps aren't important so I'm not sure where you're getting that.
You say no one here has used this nagra box and that is a valid point, however neither have you.
A lot of us are  familiar with the c1000's however, and know that what you will be taking in with those mics isn't going
to be up to YOUR PROFESSIONAL STANDARD and it's rather pointless to pair the two.
REMEBER THIS?:

I am an audiophile so my expectations of sound quality is high.
But, they are not professional machines and that is a factor for me.

This is what we are responding to.
You are trying to polish a turd.

While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.

Are you starting to understand why people are giving you advice?? you keep contradicting yourself.
We've used the mics, you haven't.

LASTLY

Your thoughts will be appreciated.
Thanks, Sparky

Really?
People are bringing up the mics because of everything you claim to want as far as great sound and professional quality.

[OFOTD]

No one here is trying to rip on you Sparky.   We're trying to pass along experiences and information that has been tested, comp'd and learned in the field for decades.   So to try and help......

The Nagra > C1000 combo is like buying a Ferrari and putting in a Yugo motor.

If you're ready, willing and able to make the jump to a Nagra then by all means pair it with something that will help you realize the investment.  If someone on some other forum told you that C1000's were a good match (sonically and price-wise) to any Nagra then they were lying to you.

In an earlier post you stated

While I'm on a budget, I'm determined to not go cheap. Cosmic Law # 2: you get what you pay for.

Cosmic Law #2 doesn't apply here.  You'll buy a great sounding recorder and a pair of cheap Chinese mics and you'll get nowhere near the quality for the price.    Want to buy some mics that will help you realize the potential of your recorder investment? Look at what others who run higher end recorders use.  DPA, Schoeps, etc.   All microphones that are universally praised and used by professionals.   

It appears that you've done some research and have been able to pick out the Nagra as a recorder that interests you.  Take some time here on this site and read what others run and why.   You'll quickly learn that one of the guiding principals here is that your rig is only as good as where you start from.   Mics are the starting point, not preamps, a/d's or recorders.   Someone has steered you backwards. 

We're just trying to help get you on the right track.

[page]

But, as a point of interest, would you guy's like to exactly tell me what is wrong with the C1000's. You've done nothing more than generalize. Give me some real descriptions of the sonic differences.

They are not very detailed in my experience, and have a veil over what sound they do pass. I got this squelch effect (a hyping of the 300hz area and around 1khz with little in the middle). I've heard recordings of these mics paired with high end machines (SD 7 series) and it reminds me of a good iphone/landline phone call, not of a believable soundstage for nature recordings. (as noted in your objective here:)

I will be using it for a broad range of recording activities including field recording of natural sounds and music groups when I can. I plan on recording lots of trains and thunderstorms.

So, you can use them, they will pass a signal, but bang for buck I find even the AKG 460/480 lines better if you are interested in AKGs. Hell, I think the AKG blueline series produces a more realistic sound across the frequency spectrum than the C1000s. The reason I find this important is because it helps create a realistic soundstage and second, you're doing ambient/nature recordings where a sense of realism and detail is important (hence my recomendation of DPAs because your original post seemed to stress quality).

No one here is trying to rip on you Sparky.   We're trying to pass along experiences and information that has been tested, comp'd and learned in the field for decades.   So to try and help......

The Nagra > C1000 combo is like buying a Ferrari and putting in a Yugo motor.

If you're ready, willing and able to make the jump to a Nagra then by all means pair it with something that will help you realize the investment.  If someone on some other forum told you that C1000's were a good match (sonically and price-wise) to any Nagra then they were lying to you.

I agree with all of this, specifically the yugo analogy.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I notice that none of you have mentioned the really expensive mics. What do you think you would get if you spent $1500 on a mic? Something better? Are you willing to spend that much? I'll bet not. Why, because you don't place a great value on the fine quality sound which the great mics are capable of.

We didn't mention our mics because it would have been pointless bragging.  I own Schoeps, Gefells and DPAs.  You don't have to buy those mics, and you don't need to spend $1500.  If we took the people who have posted in this thread, and added up what they have spent on mics, it'd be a scary big number.  Probably six figures.

So coming here with limited experience, and then throwing insults by suggesting *we* are the ones who don't know anything about "fine quality sound"...  Comical.   But thanks for the laugh!

[Javier Cinakowski]

I don't think he needs to spend $1000's on mics either.  Hell, the $150/pair Karma K10's will sound better(more accurate and lifelike) than the C1000's.  The name is appropriate too :-)

[John Willett]

Wow, you guy's are ripping me hard. Your opinions of the AKG mics are not universal at all. I researched the issue as best I could and found many folks who really like the C1000's. Why else would I have bought them?

Sorry Sparky,

The AKG C1000 is probably one of the very few mics that I have only ever read bad things about, I don't think I have ever heard anyone saying good things about them, sorry.

Normally, with a Nagra you would use something like: Sennheiser MKH series, Neumann, Schoeps, DPA, Gefell or MBHO (MBHO being especially good value for the quality - similar quality to Schoeps but a lot cheaper).

If you want good quality on a tight budget - then something like a stereo pair of Rode NT55, or NT5 (the omni heads of the NT55 are also available on their own and fit the NT5 so you can have both cardioid and omni).

As far as I am aware, the C1000 was designed by AKG to be an on-stage musicians mic., rather than a recording mic.

I can understand wanting something like a Nagra and using inexpensive mics. while he saves up for something decent to match the Nagra (and, in a way, I did something like this myself when I started many years ago).  But I think you will be very disappointed with the C1000 - sorry.

[kirk97132]

I got a BRAND new pair of AKG C391 B that I'll give you a good deal on.  Better than the C-1ooos by far and would allow you to change out capsules later.  Much more flexible with varying situations and would not break the bank.   Not to jump on the band wagon but I have yet to meet anyone who likes the c-1000s after critical listening, maybe for voice only but even then they just basically suck.   I think it was AKG's attempt to have a mic that could be battery powered