Topic: Getting Back In The Game! Couple Quick Questions...

[Mr.Fantasy]

Tapers! It is good to be back in your midst!! 

My dad recorded the Dead for years (167 shows with Jerry) and countless other recordings. I grew up with a taper-dad. And I have dabbled in carrying on the torch!

Last time I was active was about 7 years ago (or so). I still have my mini-rig from that time which is a set of chopped Nak-300s and an Edirol R-09 (I had some small phantom power box too).

Fast forward to the Folsom Dead & Company shows a couple weekends ago.......my dad, my older brother, and my dad's lifelong deadhead buddy and I all went to the shows, got All-Access passes (long story), and basically had our faces stolen away early on in the first night.

So everyone, new generation and old, is now reignited on our quest to soak up as much of the sound as we can. We have been catching streams and recording those and now my dad is wanting to get a dedicated taping rig going again.

Like I say, I have been out of it for several years so I am not sure what the "in-thing" is right now. We want to have two rigs, a smaller stealthy rig and a higher quality open taping rig. Want to start ground up with new tech (or old tech if that is what I need to find) and we are going to need mics, deck, and all the fixin's. Price is negotiable.

If anyone knows of a similar thread (I did search a bit) or if you have any recommendations.....I am all ears and greatly appreciative!

Can't believe how great John Mayer is doing.....total disbelief.

[jbell]

What kind of budget??  You could grab Carl's MBHO actives with cards and Hypers.  These would work for open taping or undercover. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177751.0

You could run them right into a P48 deck like these!  Depending on your budget

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1086798-REG/tascam_dr_70d_4_channel_audio_recording.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1140426-REG/zoom_zf8_f8_field_recorder.html

 

[Mr.Fantasy]

I would say the ballpark budget for the open rig is going to be $3,000 (this would be used more often). The budget for the stealth rig would be more like $1,000 ballpark and is less important right now. I want to get the open rig done first.

But those could go higher depending on what sort of ideas are discussed. If we are going to invest the time to make a good capture, then we need to invest the money to make sure the capture is worth it. That said, we aren't out to spend a few grand automatically. If there are options that can be found for less, then I will explore them.

Dad and I both know that quality doesn't easily come for cheap.

[rocksuitcase]

What kind of budget??  You could grab Carl's MBHO actives with cards and Hypers.  These would work for open taping or undercover. 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=177751.0

I second this recommendation. The price is great for such a flexible set up. Not affiliated, BUT have coveted MBHO's forever!   

[Mr.Fantasy]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

[jbell]

If you want Neumann you could go this route!! 

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=178035.0

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

[caymanreview]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

i have a bunch of mbho cards > v3 tapes on the archive. one of my fav rigs ive ever ran or owned.

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-04-01.mbho

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-05-19.mbho.flac16

[jefflester]

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

The Telefunken box is a power supply that goes with the mics as a set. They are vacuum  tube mics so require a special power supply.

[MakersMarc]

I would say the ballpark budget for the open rig is going to be $3,000 (this would be used more often). The budget for the stealth rig would be more like $1,000 ballpark and is less important right now. I want to get the open rig done first.

But those could go higher depending on what sort of ideas are discussed. If we are going to invest the time to make a good capture, then we need to invest the money to make sure the capture is worth it. That said, we aren't out to spend a few grand automatically. If there are options that can be found for less, then I will explore them.

Dad and I both know that quality doesn't easily come for cheap.

Used pair of mk4 or 41, 1000-1200. Nbobs active cables 600ish. 6 feet for stealth with 9'foot extension for open taping. Naiant PFA 130. Or nbox for 450ish. Add a used Oade modified 661 for 350 or so and a Sony m10 for 150-200. Add a bar for the mics, stand, batteries, still well under 3k and you have a great sounding open and stealth setup. IMO.

You can go cheaper but if you want great and not just okay I think you gotta spend.

[rocksuitcase]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

MBHO can exactly be compared to Neumann or Schoeps:
http://www.mbho.de/t1.htm

Herbert Haun has been established in Obrigheim since 1962. The development and manufacture of high quality microphones was and is the essential motivation of all people associated with MBHO.

95 % of each product is actually handmade.

In the past the MBHO microphone factory had been associated with the well known MB QUART company.
 
Industry customers

Many well known industry customers like Telefunken, Strässer, Dual, Grundig, ITT, Saba, US-Clearcom, Audix and the highly acclaimed Brauner valve tube microphones have been satisfied partners of MBHO.

Background

Herbert Haun - CEOThe personal background of Herbert Haun is more than impressive. His education was done at Bayer years ago, since then he was always involved in the production of microphones.

Manfred Schneider - Chief EngineerMBHO's chief engineer, Manfred Schneider, was involved for a long time with the famous Dr. Schoeps.

This background should give you confidence regarding the products and their quality.
 

THat last sentence is theirs, not added by me! MBHO is some serious stuff.

[Sebastian]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

I have run MBHO cards exclusively for the last 10 years before making the switch to Schoeps earlier this year. The MBHO company is owned by a former Schoeps employee, so there's definately a relationship between the two brands. They're great mics. A little brighter than Neumanns or Schoeps.

Here's a few of my captures:
https://archive.org/details/ryanadams2006-10-09.mbho.flac16
https://archive.org/details/thenational2013-06-22.mbho.flac16
https://archive.org/details/tod2013-04-28.mbho.flac16
https://archive.org/details/billybragg2012-05-27.mbho.flac16

The MBHOs are cheap compared to the other options, especially the active setup. You can get a pair of single capsule attachments from an MBHO dealer and a Naiant IPA or PFA (instead of the full bodies) to power/amplify them.

[dean]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm30l8sqlQw

[Fried Chicken Boy]

To add my 2 cents, the Neumann and MBHO setups that are in the Yard Sale right now are both very solid contenders within your budget (the Telefunkens are too, for that matter).  Very flexible rigs and multiple capsules are available for both.  You likely won't find better prices for either as well.  Just comes down to what flavor you prefer; just add a recorder with XLRs and P48 and you're ready to go.  Good luck! 

[johnw]

What did your dad tape with? If he liked those tapes, why not get those mics. Microphones havent changed that much except for digital mics which are out of your budget anyway.

[daspyknows]

I would say the ballpark budget for the open rig is going to be $3,000 (this would be used more often). The budget for the stealth rig would be more like $1,000 ballpark and is less important right now. I want to get the open rig done first.

But those could go higher depending on what sort of ideas are discussed. If we are going to invest the time to make a good capture, then we need to invest the money to make sure the capture is worth it. That said, we aren't out to spend a few grand automatically. If there are options that can be found for less, then I will explore them.

Dad and I both know that quality doesn't easily come for cheap.

Used pair of mk4 or 41, 1000-1200. Nbobs active cables 600ish. 6 feet for stealth with 9'foot extension for open taping. Naiant PFA 130. Or nbox for 450ish. Add a used Oade modified 661 for 350 or so and a Sony m10 for 150-200. Add a bar for the mics, stand, batteries, still well under 3k and you have a great sounding open and stealth setup. IMO.

You can go cheaper but if you want great and not just okay I think you gotta spend.

I would second this option.  I prefer the NBox option but agree the mics/preamp can easily suit both purposes and would give you a kickass rig.  We can debate the details but listen to your ears.  Samples of all these rigs out there and you can listen and decide. 

[Scooter123]

After I discarded the Church rig, I went on The Dime and dl'ed 100 great audience shows.  I made a list of the microphones used on each. 

Neumans and Schoeps were consistently great sounding. 

The Schoeps ended up being my choice simply because I knew some local tapers who swore by them.  Yeah, they're a little warm, but the capsule and active and NBox part make it a nice stealth rig. 

Use the same mikes, actives and preamp for your open air rig.  All you need is a stand, bars, clamps and you're good to go. 

[Mr.Fantasy]

What did your dad tape with? If he liked those tapes, why not get those mics. Microphones havent changed that much except for digital mics which are out of your budget anyway.

Dad taped the vast majority of his shows with a pair of Nak 300s into a Marantz deck (forget the model number off the top of my head...very well known).

[Mr.Fantasy]

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

The Telefunken box is a power supply that goes with the mics as a set. They are vacuum  tube mics so require a special power supply.

I see. Thanks!

[Mr.Fantasy]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

i have a bunch of mbho cards > v3 tapes on the archive. one of my fav rigs ive ever ran or owned.

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-04-01.mbho

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-05-19.mbho.flac16

I am really impressed by those recordings.

On your source info: "mbho ka200/603a > MiAGi-II's > v3 > jb3 @ 48k"

So you used the 200 caps? What is the 603a?
MiAGi-II's....are those cables I guess?

And are you using the digital or the analog in on the V3?

[johnw]

To answer your above questions. Yes the 200 is the cap (cardioid), the 603a is the body. In that setup, the capsule is separated from the body by a cable. The V3 is a preamp and A/D converter. The JB3 is the recorder. Per the description it is likely an optical toslink digital output from the V3 to the JB3. That recorder is no longer available and was limited to 16bits.

Is there something that you guys didn't like about the Nak 300s or did you just want to try something new?

If you want a small footprint that could be used both stealth and open, Schoeps and DPA are about as small as it gets. Both now have ways to do interchangeable capsules if you want different options. Other options include AKG and Microtech Geffell capsules with custom active cables as well as the MBHOs.

[daspyknows]

After I discarded the Church rig, I went on The Dime and dl'ed 100 great audience shows.  I made a list of the microphones used on each. 

Neumans and Schoeps were consistently great sounding. 

The Schoeps ended up being my choice simply because I knew some local tapers who swore by them.  Yeah, they're a little warm, but the capsule and active and NBox part make it a nice stealth rig. 

Use the same mikes, actives and preamp for your open air rig.  All you need is a stand, bars, clamps and you're good to go.

If you want to hear the Schoeps MK4 or 41 with NBox rig there are dozens of recording by Scooter123 and myself on Dime and Planet Rock.  I think my Wetransfer links from Mudcrutch are still live in the Kickdown Central thread.

[caymanreview]

MBHO.....

I am totally unfamiliar I guess. Compares to Schoeps and Neumann?

And what is that Telefunken device he is selling? Is that a preamp?

How would these mics do with a Grace V3?

i have a bunch of mbho cards > v3 tapes on the archive. one of my fav rigs ive ever ran or owned.

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-04-01.mbho

https://archive.org/details/dbt2005-05-19.mbho.flac16

I am really impressed by those recordings.

On your source info: "mbho ka200/603a > MiAGi-II's > v3 > jb3 @ 48k"

So you used the 200 caps? What is the 603a?
MiAGi-II's....are those cables I guess?

And are you using the digital or the analog in on the V3?

John pretty much nailed all your questions about my setup in those recordings

Pfa's and ipa's werent around then. Full bodies was about the only way to go. Besides the nbox there were only a few jk labs actives boxes around then.

The miagi -II's were maybe the first silver xlr cables being made by a member here. Sometimes they are referred to as bummblebee miagi II's as they were yellow and black

The member that made them has long since disappeared

The v3 was the preamp and fed the mbhos with phantom power. It was an optical mod v3 and the jb3 took an optical input.

[jefflester]

What did your dad tape with? If he liked those tapes, why not get those mics. Microphones havent changed that much except for digital mics which are out of your budget anyway.

Dad taped the vast majority of his shows with a pair of Nak 300s into a Marantz deck (forget the model number off the top of my head...very well known).

No doubt the PMD-430.

[Mr.Fantasy]

What did your dad tape with? If he liked those tapes, why not get those mics. Microphones havent changed that much except for digital mics which are out of your budget anyway.

Dad taped the vast majority of his shows with a pair of Nak 300s into a Marantz deck (forget the model number off the top of my head...very well known).

No doubt the PMD-430.

Bingo!!!

I remember stealing it from my dad's taping gear and found a Dead tape and listened to Dire Wolf like 1,000 when I was like 10 years old. Those were the days.... 

[barrettphisher]

If I had to do it all over again I would go:
MK41v>Nbob Cables>PFA>Oade modded 661 with a n-box>m10 as stealth option
Barrett

[Mr.Fantasy]

If I had to do it all over again I would go:
MK41v>Nbob Cables>PFA>Oade modded 661 with a n-box>m10 as stealth option
Barrett

PFA?

[caymanreview]

small things made by naiant that use phantom power to provide the correct voltage to caps in an active situation

i have some that replace the schoeps bodies and provide the 60v polarization that the bodies would provide. couple hundred bucks compared to way over a grand for the bodies

naiants new thing is the IPA. which is a smaller pfa style device that provides power to the mics and can use phantom or an internal battery. check out the ipa thread!

[caymanreview]

ipa thread:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=176836.0

naiants page with ipa and pfa's

http://naiant.com/custom_audio_reproduction_equipment/inline-devices/

if you have any questions about them feel free to pm me. it took me forever to comprehend it all untill someone finally laid it out to me in a pm

[caymanreview]

alot of the pfa's you see pictured around here just look like a full size xlr connector on the end of a set of active cables. the electronics are inside the xlr itself

i have pfa's for my schoeps setup. i love them but the new kcy ipa looks fantastic.

i second the schoeps  > nbob actives > pfa or ipa > oade mod recorder

ive ran a good portion of the gear folks around here use. im finally settled on this setup myself except i do schoeps caps > nbobs > nbox > recorder. (first time in 10+ years there wasnt an oade modded recorder and/or pre in my setup!

if your going to jump in completely, its worth the time and effort to get something youl be happy with! if you have the funds! although upgrading and slutting it up is fun in itself!

[Mr.Fantasy]

Ok, so lets sit the microphones aside for a moment. I am in the process of doing a big audio search through the archive to find what dad, brother, and I can all agree sounds "the best"....lol. Think we are leaning away from MBHO and towards Schoeps and Neumann.

But let's talk further down the signal path.

I know folks like the silver cables and stuff....I am cool with that.

With regards to the PFA and the like....so devices like that are only used for "active mics"? Maybe I just don't know what constitutes an active mic.

But my real question for today is about recorders.

I was looking at a Marantz PMD671 that was in the yard sale. Then I was looking at the (seemingly more current model) the PMD661MKII. And then I got off on a tangent and was looking at a Sound Devices 702.

I mean....what is the biggest different in these boxes. Type of signal output? Do these each color the sound different? Are some more transparent than others?

I am just trying to figure out how to go about this.

Should I pick my mics first? Then my recorder?

[dnsacks]

imo, behind location, mics will have a much greater effect on sound than any of the recorders (or mic cables) you mentioned -- I'd focus on your mic setup and once you see what's left of your budget decide on what recorder to use.  Think of active mics as being similar to your chopped naks -- with an active setup, you don't have a mic body on your stand and therefore the mics are smaller/lighter/less obtrusive. Back "in the day," this was accomplished by separating the capsule from the mic body with a wire.  The PFAs referenced above take it a step farther by converting phantom power into the current needed to power the mics and does away with the mic body (with schoeps, you'd run capsules>nbob cables (or the schoeps kcy cables that the nbob cables were based on) >pfa > mic in xlrs on your recorder. The IPA (or nbox), also substitutes for the mic preamp, letting you run capsules>nbob cables >IPA > line in on your deck (letting you run a smaller deck like a sony m10 that doesn't provide phantom power).  Result, a setup that can fit in a small fannypack but provide VERY good, clean, detailed recordings. 

[daspyknows]

Personally I think the mics are the most important and first decision.  You may hear from some folks that mics are not necessary but since you have taken to trusting your ears you obviously hear the difference between the different options.   The recorder is the least critical component to the sound in my opinion although some of the options you may consider run the mics directly into the recorder making it an important decision point.   

If you plan on running a lot of stealth recordings it makes sense to take into account the size and amount of metal since sneaking gear in is a bit more work than in your dad's day.

[MakersMarc]

Part of what I like about the Schoeps setup is that everything has great resale value. I leapt in without worrying too much if I didn't like it. I started out with a pair of mk41 caps, which IMO are really versatile...indoors, outdoors, far, close. I bought them new but they do pop up occasionally used, the 41s do seem to be the hardest to find used. But even new you're gonna get back 80-85% if they're matched and in nice shape. I think mk4 is a really versatile option too and easier to locate used. Then bought a used nbox and a new pair of nbobs from Nicky C., who is great to deal with. Added a used m10 to get me rolling. Once I decided I was good with Schoeps I added a PFA to be able to connect caps>nBob active cables>PFA>Marantz 661 for another flavor when I don't need to hide the gear, and a pair of used 4v caps. I also went this way because I'm on a weight limit due to extensive spinal surgery and my setup is well under the 25 pounds I can carry.

I don't have my IPA yet but I love that it's small and allows me to run my m10 for a super tiny setup, even smaller than with the nbox. Jon makes good stuff, like the PFA I expect clean transparent sound.

I think Neumann km140s with actives would be my second choice right now, it does so happen there is a pair for a screaming price in the yard sale. Add a p48 xlr in recorder and a great setup that will sound great. Won't be as tiny as the Schoeps setup, but I've stealthed a lot of shows running PFA>661 in my pocket. Just takes a little more care.

[tapjunkie]

My friend's Neumann KM140 set and V3 would get you off to a good start. It includes the active cables and the V3 provides mic preamp and A>D.  That would leave you money for a small recorder or one of the 680 units still for sale.