Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Raoul_Duke on October 14, 2014, 11:42:28 PM
-
Hi,
I'd like to start by thanking you all for the fantastic forum. The wealth of knowledge here is truly impressive and for a recording novice such as myself, almost a little overwhelming.
Which leads me to my question/s. I sincerely apologize if what I'm asking has been covered before. I have tried to use the search function, and, indeed, I've tried to glean as much information as possible from related threads.
I'm a musician playing what I guess would be defined as avant garde jazz. I'm looking for the best possible way to record the gigs and rehearsals in which I perform. I've settled on a Sony PCM M10 as the recorder I want, but I'm confused as to what the best microphones would be. As I'd be recording my own performances, stealth recording is unnecessary. Recording on the stage seems like it would yield the best results. People speak highly of the Church Audio mics, and their price makes them attractive. I should add that money is somewhat of a concern.
Anyway, I would be grateful for any advice you might be able to give. Thanks in advance.
Anthony
-
Sounds like you would be better off using internal mic's on a Sony D-50/100 or Roland R26 recorder, rather than buying Church Audio mic's or something small like that. The internal mic's on some portable recorders are decent and will get similar results if you are recording on stage. The setup is also less hassle.
-
I would disagree with the internal all-in-one option. All three of those recorders would cost about the same as getting a Church gear > M10 set up. Setup would be (slightly) less hassle, but for the same price I'd rather have the versatility of external mics that more often than not will yield better results.
Church mics are a fine choice. If you get the package with the cards and omnis it would give you some options to play around with. Omins split a couple feet in a closed rehearsal space would probably sound pretty sweet. Depending on the crowd you're playing for and how quiet they are, using the same set up live is also a fine option. Cards can cut down the audience a bit if thats a concern.
Heres a recording I did a few years ago onstage at a jazz show with Church mics that is better than many recordings I've done with higher quality mics. Not quite avant garde but you can get an idea. Granted it was a pretty ideal recording situation, but as you're actually in the band most shows should be like that for you. Though it does slightly depend on your stage arrangement I suppose...
https://archive.org/details/jcm2011-08-07.CA14.flac16
Edit: I will also add, if you were up for slightly more work in post production you could find a cheap Tascam DR-2d and an extra church preamp to run 4 channels, which depending on the band's stage arrangement, could help make sure everyone is well represented. Omnis in the 'middle' and cards for spot mic'ing certain members, or you could split the omnis on either side of the stage with cards in a traditional stereo pattern in the middle. More options to choose from there.
-
I agree with Achalsey on the Church route. Great mics at a great price. I think there's a pair of cards in the YS for $110) Also another recommendation for the M-10. Great recorder with fantastic battery life.
-
There are a couple of Church audio mics in the yard sale to pick from. Would the OP also need a battery box to run them?
-
Besides Church, the other good option is Naiant's X-R mic system. Affordable built by a trusted community member. http://naiant.com/studio-electronics-products/microphones/x-r-interchangeable-capsule-condenser-microphone-system/
Capsules can be swapped, depending on the room, noise level in the audience I will use either omni or cardioid capsules onstage. This system will allow you to change as needed.
-
Hi,
I'd like to start by thanking you all for the fantastic forum. The wealth of knowledge here is truly impressive and for a recording novice such as myself, almost a little overwhelming.
Which leads me to my question/s. I sincerely apologize if what I'm asking has been covered before. I have tried to use the search function, and, indeed, I've tried to glean as much information as possible from related threads.
I'm a musician playing what I guess would be defined as avant garde jazz. I'm looking for the best possible way to record the gigs and rehearsals in which I perform. I've settled on a Sony PCM M10 as the recorder I want, but I'm confused as to what the best microphones would be. As I'd be recording my own performances, stealth recording is unnecessary. Recording on the stage seems like it would yield the best results. People speak highly of the Church Audio mics, and their price makes them attractive. I should add that money is somewhat of a concern.
Anyway, I would be grateful for any advice you might be able to give. Thanks in advance.
Anthony
Hey Anthony,
Welcome! And thanks for your question. I can go into more detail, but...
Easiest -- Put an M10 on stage and use the internals. As already pointed out, the R-26 has better and more internals (omni and cardiod) which might be useful for getting the right imaging for onstage. The D-50 has X-Y cardiod internals that also can be moved out to ORTF, again giving you more options for imaging than the M10 and its fixed omni internals.
Still really really easy -- Use small mics like Naiant X-R or X-X omnis, put them onstage split with tape, either lying on the stage or, more ideally, taped to a monitor or other fixed objects. Naiant is very professional to deal with and his (Jon's) mics are inexpensive and come in a variety of configurations.
Easy and less work for you -- Invite tapers to come to your shows, let us do the work for you! If you're in NYC, let me know. You can always still record yourself too, of course. I have a musician friend who makes cool multitracks of his shows, and we like to compare and contrast what we get.
-
Thank you all for the warm welcome, and for the informative responses.
Although I am looking for the most hassle-free way to get the music down, placing or taping some external mics on the stage doesn't seem like too much work if it yields recordings of higher quality.
I hadn't heard of the Naiant mics. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. The idea of interchangeable capsules does appeal. Will do a little reading. Is there any consensus on which would suit my needs better, Church Audio or Naiant?
2manyrocks brought up the question of a battery box, and this is something I had meant to ask: would I be better off going for a preamp or a battery box?
Achalsey, I would like to add that I enjoyed your recording immensely.
Acidjack, I'm actually in Tokyo.
-
Thank you all for the warm welcome, and for the informative responses.
Although I am looking for the most hassle-free way to get the music down, placing or taping some external mics on the stage doesn't seem like too much work if it yields recordings of higher quality.
I hadn't heard of the Naiant mics. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. The idea of interchangeable capsules does appeal. Will do a little reading. Is there any consensus on which would suit my needs better, Church Audio or Naiant?
2manyrocks brought up the question of a battery box, and this is something I had meant to ask: would I be better off going for a preamp or a battery box?
Achalsey, I would like to add that I enjoyed your recording immensely.
Acidjack, I'm actually in Tokyo.
Both builders make good quality microphones
Naiant has a better reputation for timely delivery of orders. Church Audio has announced an October sale, with items already built so delays shouldn't be too bad.
For loud rock shows a battery box is enough. The M10's gain stage works well and sounds good. For quieter shows, and with some recorders that have a more limited range where their inputs sound good, preamps are useful.
-
... If you are in Japan, after all both somewhere that is far and well known for incredible small electronics, you may want to research "lavalier" mics from Audio Technica such as the AT 853 or AT 943. The 943 small omnis are quite nice and should serve your purposes for onstage. Being in Japan you probably have many more options for all-in-one recorders and things like that than we do, too. It will also be more costly of course to order custom gear from the U.S., but you'd know that better than me.
There are tapers in Japan who frequent this board, so perhaps one or two of them might even want to come out and see you!
-
I certainly like the idea of finding something here that will serve my purposes. It seems, however, that the 943s have been discontinued. Of their current models, are there any that stand out? Does the 943 have a successor?
I apologise again for how limited my understanding is of these things, but are lavalier mics what I should be looking for if I plan on having them somewhere on a stage, rather than on my person? Are there slightly larger mics (mounted perhaps?) which would provide higher quality?
Thank you for your patience in dealing with my stream of newbie questions.
-
The AT853 is still a favorite of tapers because of it can be battery powered and sounds good. The AT 943 is similar. Even though discontinued, you will see them for sale in the yard sale here from time to time. I never thought of either as a lav mic. I thought both were primarily intended to be used as choir mics when they were sold by Audio Technica.
Your focus should not be on finding a lav mic. Your focus should be on finding a mic in your price range that works for what you want.
If you read other threads in Microphones and Setup, you'll find a progression of mics that sort of follows a pattern: church audio mics or AT853/943; Countryman B3; DPA4061; and an assortment of larger body mics from AKG, schoeps, etc. The price sort of follows that progression.
Similarly, you'll see a progression of investment of not using any battery box, using a battery box to avoid mic distortion; using a small preamp from Church audio or Naiant; and from there using a variety of preamps such as the Shure FP24 to name but one. Some mics require more power.
I have a set of the AT853 mics and they are pretty nice, but they are several steps below the DPA4061s in sound quality and price, IMO. You can seach out recordings here that have been made with various mics to see which ones might be of interest to you.
-
Thanks for breaking it down for me, 2manyrocks; things are starting to make a little more sense. I will keep my eyes peeled for any 943s that pop up here. I'll also look be on the lookout locally for anything second-hand (thus avoiding the need for international shipping).
Very helpful to see the progression in quality/price of the brands and models I've been reading about. Do you happen to know of any other Japanese brands that would fit in the first (cheaper) half of that list? Japanese products are often considerably cheaper here than imports once you factor shipping and import tax in the price–even comparing new to used. Has Audio Technica replaced the 943 with a particular model?
-
I probably need to back up and correct myself a bit. The AT943 was sold as a lav mic and the B3's and DPA mics have also been used extensively as hidden mics in theater applications.
What makes them appealing to tapers is their small size allows them to be worn on a person's body to record without being noticed, they sound good, and they can be battery powered.
I do not personally know of small new production Japanese manufactured mics you could look for, but there are certainly others around here who are vastly more knowledgeable.
If microphone size and the ability to power via batteries isn't important to you, then you could always use larger mics. Audio technica 2020's are affordable and decent entry level mics, but require phantom power. Using them would require you to either use a mixer to provide phantom power or you'd have to buy a recorder that provides phantom power like the Tascam Dr60d (being discontinued in favor of new model MKii) to power them.
edit: if you get a recorder or mixer with phantom power and don't mind a larger body mic, another mic you might consider is the Audio Technica Pro37 if you need to buy new and are on a budget.
I don't know anything about the amount of import taxes and shipping charges to Japan, but there appears to be a set of AT933s for sale in the yard sale.
-
Thanks for the clarification. Something slightly larger than a lav mic is appealing; I'll have a think about what to do about phantom power. Like what I've seen/read about the 2020. Would a card be the way to go for acoustic (mostly) jazz?
-
Might check local availability of Sanken microphones. They are a well respected Japanese manufacturer-
http://www.sanken-mic.com/en/
-
A card is useful when recording in rooms where the acoustics of the room are less than ideal. Omni pattern mics are nice in rooms where the room acoustics are good.
Gutbucket made an amazing jazz trio recording at this link. You will find it interesting. http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=1625.msg2037866#msg2037866
-
Sounds great, Gutbucket! The guitarist is tearing it up, too.
Have to admit, though, that the description of how you actually performed the recording lost me. While I hope one day to be able to understand and use all of the shorthand I read, my head was/is swimming in a sea of acronyms and model numbers.
If I want to keep it simple for now, and I'm performing mostly in rooms with good acoustics, is there a decent, larger omni mic that's not going to break the bank? Will keep a lookout for Sanken mics, too, Gutbucket.
I apologise again for dumbing the conversation down.
-
Audio Technica makes good quality mics that aren't overly expensive, not just the small 943 and 853 series, but 'normal' full-body small diaphragm condensers (SDCs). They might be your best bet. Sanken also makes 'normal' cardioids and an omni but they are less common with music recordists here at Taper's Section and I don't have an idea of their cost. I do know their miniature omni lav (COS11) is about the same cost as the DPA 4060 series, which is more costly than the miniature AT microphones.
Thanks for the comments, I had forgotten about those samples. Keeping things simple, you're probably best advised to try the more typical 2-channel stereo recording setups most people use around here and ignore that stuff for now. I tend to use some odd recording setups, and enjoy figuring out what might work better, when and why. I like sharing what I've learned doing those kind of things here, and I think what is most important is not so much outlining specific ways of doing things, but exploring the ideas behind what works, and good ways to think about the problems.
It's not dumbing down, its starting with the most important practical questions to get started, then maybe getting more sophisticated from there if that interests you and you want to keep improving your recording techniques.
-
There are a pair of Busman BSC1 microphones in the yardsale right now.
$400 USD with interchangeable capsule 3 different pickup patterns, Omni, Hyper and Cardioid.
Cheaper than buying a quality omni and cardioid set separately.
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Steve%20Kennedy-Williams
here's a 4 track of onstage BSC1 + sbd with a touch of aud
http://archive.org/details/nm2014-06-14.scoobiensnax
here's omni onstage
https://archive.org/details/ata2012-12-29 (listed as Avantone CK1 - busman mod, this is the prototype version of the BSC1)
-
Scoobie makes smokin' recordings with his Busmans. You've need to get them shipped from the US to you in Japan, but those are a great value well and respected around here.
-
The only problem with that is he'll need a preamp then too. I assume there are affordable japanese preamps that are not generally popular around here, but still will add to the cost. Then add in mounts, cables, stand....
I don't want to speak for OP but seems like he's trying to keep it on a budget. Not to say the Busmans aren't a great choice, but then you're getting into like a $5-600 (without recorder) investment.
-
Gotcha. Yet he did request something larger than lav mics for stage mic'ing, which pushes things towards phantom power, at least at reasonable cost. For that, medium sized standard-size phantom-powered mics with a more substantial construction may be more appropriately 'robust' and less fragile for that application than miniatures. If ultimate small size and potentially wearing the microphones is important, the miniature low-voltage mics and associated gear would be a better choice. Those are more real-world practicality concerns which are probably more important than subtle questions of quality. Either is capable of making quality recordings from on-stage.
-
True, but I get the feeling OP doesn't know much of what he wants or how it all works. (I mean that with no offense. I was in the same boat starting out.)
OP, Anthony?, a ball park figure, or maybe limit of what you're willing to spend would help the discussion a bit I think.
That said, some good advice that I certainly didn't follow starting out, is to get the mics you want first. If you do continue on down the path its much more cost effective to make a larger one time purchase of the mics you ultimately want than to buy cheap now and slowly upgrade over time. If you can splurge and buy a lasting rig now that would be ideal. Though, depending on how involved you'll be in it, I'm sure some AT, Naiant or Church miniature mics would be just fine too.
Is there any kind of used market in Japan? I would think you could find some pretty cheap AT mics somewhere in country, but have no basis to actually back that up.
-
Scoobie makes smokin' recordings with his Busmans. You've need to get them shipped from the US to you in Japan, but those are a great value well and respected around here.
Back to a simpler option Audio Technica makes the 8010 omni, that will run off Battery Power or Phantom.
Not as versatile, but to get into a small recorder, they'll do fine.
-
Scoobie makes smokin' recordings with his Busmans.
He does indeed! Those sound fantastic. Really like the Hammond stuff. The Busmans seem like the perfect choice–but maybe out of my price range with the preamps etc. Guess I'm looking to spend $300 (under if possible) on top of the recorder itself.
I don't know a lot about the used market here for audio products, but a cursory check suggests there isn't much going on–until, of course, things achieve "vintage" status.
The 8010 was sold in Japan as the ATM10a but looks to have been discontinued. Don't seem to be any floating around the new or second-hand market.
Are there any other simple options that will work in an M-10–a cheaper version of something like a BSC1 perhaps?
-
Countryman B3 (x2) > battery box > M10
Low-profile, affordable, and they blow more expensive mics out of the water IMHO. The B3s come unterminated, but you shouldn't have any trouble finding somebody to solder them into a stereo miniplug for you.