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Author Topic: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)  (Read 139800 times)

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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2020, 02:44:38 PM »
Thanks for sharing that thread.  I believe that either something is wrong with his F6, or it performs very poorly as a USB interface.  I have only used it that way once, and not for concert recording.  I didn't notice any problems in the short time I tried it.

i hope not! it's mine...  :hmmm:

I think he needs to do standalone measurements on the unit for comparison before we can say anything meaningful about his results. 

agreed. i'm getting my legs on my measurement game, and have an RME ADI-2 PRO FS-R coming in next week which is truly 'measurement grade' interface on both input and output. ill make a testing thread once i dive deep into it. i certainly have no shortage of different gear to run at this point.

Its unfortunate as i was hoping Amir could do the full suite on the zoom, but his AP tester does DACs better than (non USB) ADCs, as he can feed most of them USB or SPDIF easily then loop back the inputs. A non-USB (or non-decent USB) ADC like the zoom has no clear path back to the AP to do real-time tests... so he's limited to post analyzing wav files in software (which is possible and ive been doing it lately). Is it as good as his $30K AP? For our purposes, possibly

I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us (no offense birders... most of us arent relying on built-in preamps on our handhelds as our primary rig. Not that that operation isnt relevant but its only one picture. Also the way they present the data is kinda headache inducing for me, personally)

heres what my ideal database fields would look like
mfr
model
release year
inputs (balanced, unbalanced, digital)
ADC chip (if known)
max line-in dBu
max mic-in dBu
minimum mic-in input level setting (where input clipping occurs before 0dBFS AKA "brickwalling"
minimum line-in input level setting (same brickwalling)
S/N, Dynamic range, noise floor, etc., at some arbitrary micinput level like -30dBU or -40dBU
battery life at 2 ch
battery life at max channels

what else relevant are we missing? i can get us a good start. recorders/adcs i have handy
F6
PCM-A10
ICD-UX560
ICD-UX570
R-07
DR2D
DR100mkiii
V3
AD2K
ADC1
ADI-2
ADI-2 PRO FS-R
Brooklyn ADC

the measurements are relatively basic and we could fill it out quickly with some community effort
« Last Edit: August 30, 2020, 02:46:32 PM by jerryfreak »
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Offline beatkilla

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #331 on: August 30, 2020, 04:14:09 PM »
Thanks for sharing that thread.  I believe that either something is wrong with his F6, or it performs very poorly as a USB interface.  I have only used it that way once, and not for concert recording.  I didn't notice any problems in the short time I tried it.

i hope not! it's mine...  :hmmm:

I think he needs to do standalone measurements on the unit for comparison before we can say anything meaningful about his results. 

agreed. i'm getting my legs on my measurement game, and have an RME ADI-2 PRO FS-R coming in next week which is truly 'measurement grade' interface on both input and output. ill make a testing thread once i dive deep into it. i certainly have no shortage of different gear to run at this point.

Its unfortunate as i was hoping Amir could do the full suite on the zoom, but his AP tester does DACs better than (non USB) ADCs, as he can feed most of them USB or SPDIF easily then loop back the inputs. A non-USB (or non-decent USB) ADC like the zoom has no clear path back to the AP to do real-time tests... so he's limited to post analyzing wav files in software (which is possible and ive been doing it lately). Is it as good as his $30K AP? For our purposes, possibly

I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us (no offense birders... most of us arent relying on built-in preamps on our handhelds as our primary rig. Not that that operation isnt relevant but its only one picture. Also the way they present the data is kinda headache inducing for me, personally)

heres what my ideal database fields would look like
mfr
model
release year
inputs (balanced, unbalanced, digital)
ADC chip (if known)
max line-in dBu
max mic-in dBu
minimum mic-in input level setting (where input clipping occurs before 0dBFS AKA "brickwalling"
minimum line-in input level setting (same brickwalling)
S/N, Dynamic range, noise floor, etc., at some arbitrary micinput level like -30dBU or -40dBU
battery life at 2 ch
battery life at max channels

what else relevant are we missing? i can get us a good start. recorders/adcs i have handy
F6
PCM-A10
ICD-UX560
ICD-UX570
R-07
DR2D
DR100mkiii
V3
AD2K
ADC1
ADI-2
ADI-2 PRO FS-R
Brooklyn ADC

the measurements are relatively basic and we could fill it out quickly with some community effort


How to test the maximum input levels of MIC and LINE before brickwalling?

I am looking for these above information pertaining to KORG MR-2 .This is my main stealth deck.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #332 on: August 30, 2020, 04:42:43 PM »
feed sine wave at known level to recorder and look at resulting wave in wave editor. easy to see clipping
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #333 on: September 01, 2020, 09:51:36 AM »
I'd like to ultimately build a database similar to the avisoft recorder test page, which focuses on criteria more relevant to us

This would be a great resource.  Beyond the initial rush of testing and data posting, I suspect the primary challenge may be keeping it updated moving forward!
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #334 on: September 03, 2020, 10:05:53 AM »
sorry to post yet another non-F6 post, but i am at a loss for where to start the discussion of measurements

the most logical place would be in the 'knowledge base' forum but that seems to be basically deprecated

if we do it here in the gear/technical help forum, there isnt a clear fit for devices which are either dedicated ADCs or integrated recorders, etc.

thoughts?

i was envisioning a thread for discussion of measurement techniques, hardware, and software, and another concise one with simply results

perhaps the latter would be better served by a single static off-TS resource like google sheets or google drive? as it would be primarily a 'read-only' dealio.

i almost feel like we could use a dedicated board for measurements which allows for a thread for each component and discussion contained within
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #335 on: September 03, 2020, 06:06:58 PM »
Good questions. Very much looking forward to the discussion.. and results, wherever posted.  It seems to me a dedicated sub-board in knowldege base would be the most appropriate place, as overtime it can and should grow to include general info on audio measurements and testing relevant to other aspects of recording and playback. If a dedicated sub-board is undesirable for some reason, it could be "stickied" there.

Thinking of some formerly active TS folks who could have contributed greatly to such a discussion, including Jon of Naiant, Spark E, and a few others.

Beyond bench testing, I've long wished for the ability to measure "as rigged" directional response of a single microphone, and by further extension more complex 2-ch and multichannel arrays. In part simply to gain a deeper understanding of what is going on in reality rather than assuming idealized responses and plots, especially when using odd mountings and setups, such as those common to stealth arrangements, and in part to help better optimize such setups.  For instance I use four identical omnis in one particular setup, but the way they are mounted changes the frequency and polar responses from mic to mic.  I compensate afterwards in post by ear, and over time with respect to tweaking the setup arrangements, but it would be great to have a better picture of what is going on.  DIY speaker guys are doing backyard ground-plane measurements using a rotating platform for the device under test without access to an anechoic chamber, no reason we can't do the same.  That alone would be super informative, but it would not be a stretch to take it to the next level and use such data to design corrective filters similar to the DIY speaker guys rolling their own filter and crossover networks with measurement gear and stuff like the miniDSP devices. 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline aaronji

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #336 on: September 04, 2020, 04:54:45 AM »
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

Amir added some additional tests/results (post 111).

Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #337 on: September 04, 2020, 07:15:18 AM »
some measurements done by Amir over at ASR

im not convinced the USB mode he has tested it in is representative of standalone use, hopefully he can do a further testing in 24- or  32-bit

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/zoom-f6-portable-field-recorder-review.15668/

Amir added some additional tests/results (post 111).

The new test was done in a pass-through mode to the line / HP outputs.  It's hard to know if the LF noise he measured is being introduced by the input stage, the ADC, the DAC, or the output stage.  Clearly it's coming from somewhere, but there are a lot of variables here.

I still would like to see tests of recording controlled content in both 24-bit and 32-bit FP modes, and measuring the resulting files to isolate the input stage and ADC end, and remove the DAC and output stage from the equation.

While I never used one myself, I have read that the headphone out on the first-generation F8 was not good at all, and not representative of the quality that was actually being recorded to the card.  If Zoom decided to cut corners with the outputs on that higher-priced unit, it isn't much of a leap to think they would do the same on a lower-priced one.


FWIW, I have never had any sort of noise issues with my recordings made on the F6, and probably record quieter music than most people here.  That's going off of the resulting files after they have been dumped to my PC.  I don't think I have ever actually used the HP/Line output on the F6.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #338 on: September 04, 2020, 07:29:14 AM »
i’m not sold on those tests. per the block diagram the line out routes thru a DAC circuit that the manual specs at ninety-something dB. i can do full tests with a recorded file (at 24/96 at least). and analyze them in post.

by my earlier crude tests 24 bit and 32 bit were indistinguishable when it came to noise floor

i should have it back next week
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 07:30:47 AM by jerryfreak »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #339 on: September 04, 2020, 09:53:43 AM »
While I never used one myself, I have read that the headphone out on the first-generation F8 was not good at all, and not representative of the quality that was actually being recorded to the card.  If Zoom decided to cut corners with the outputs on that higher-priced unit, it isn't much of a leap to think they would do the same on a lower-priced one.


FWIW, I have never had any sort of noise issues with my recordings made on the F6, and probably record quieter music than most people here.  That's going off of the resulting files after they have been dumped to my PC.  I don't think I have ever actually used the HP/Line output on the F6.

Just to clarify-

F8 (1st gen) and F8N (2nd gen) use the same headphone circuitry, spec'd at 100mW output per side. The problem was insufficient gain in the headphone circuit.  Firmware v5.1 update added the F8N's adjustable digital gain feature (up to +24dB) to the headphone output F8 as well, and with that the F8 achieves sufficient monitoring levels.  With that feature in use I am able to drive Senn HD600/650 to sufficient level without use of an external amp for non-normalized raw recording playback and both level and subjective quality are fine.  It's fully sufficient in that sense.  Although I rarely live monitor while recording it's strong enough for that as long as the digital gain feature is used. I use the headphone output primarily and occasionally the unbalanced AUX out, and have never actually used its balanced main line-out. I don't expect the headphone output to necessarily be of the same resolution as the input side of things and fully agree that testing using recorded files rather than loop-back would be preferable for the intended use of recorders with our goals in mind.

[/OT F8 discussion]
« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 09:55:23 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline aaronji

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #340 on: September 04, 2020, 10:06:03 AM »
Presumably, it is not the DAC or output as the same problem showed up in audio interface mode.

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #341 on: September 04, 2020, 10:27:55 AM »
measurement discussion picking up here
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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #342 on: September 09, 2020, 03:43:55 AM »
Hello tapers, this is my first post. I did a lot of reading on your site in past years and decided to join the group after reading all the posts about the Zoom F6.
I play pipe organ as a hobby and make recordings of pipe organs using 2 DPA 4090 microphones and an OADE PMD661 super mod recorder or a Denon SD recorder F450R with Lake People C360 preamp.
To allow recording pipe organ and an extra solo instrument I was looking for a recorder with at least one extra channel to use a spot mic.
I tried the MixPre 3, Zoom F6 and Zoom F8N and finally selected the Zoom F6. Just selected by playing/recording (using composed stops on the organ with a lot of harmonics) and careful listening to the result (with AKG K701 head phones).
I did not notice any noise, except very faint from the microphones. And no audible distortion.

Overall I am very satisfied with the recorder, so I was surprised to see a link to a site providing measurements done by Amir with conclusion that he could not recommend this recorder.
Did I buy bad equipment after all? It seems that measurements do (to some extent) not reflect the final result what you can hear.
Maybe someone can give a bit clarification to me.
Mics: Rode NT55, DPA 4090, Neumann KM143
Recorder: Zoom F6

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #343 on: September 09, 2020, 01:19:54 PM »
Welcome to taperssection Organfreak!

What you are asking is the focus of the the recent discussion above in the thread.  I've yet to check out the test write up at audiosciencereveiw, but the contention above concerns the testing methodology used which requires loop-back connection via computer USB interface function.  The suspicion is that the problems are with the USB audio interface rather than affecting the the primary function of recording analog inputs stored locally on the SDcard.    The call above is to re-test using a methodology that better reflects typical recording use rather than use as an interface.

Don't worry!  Many TS members have been making great recordings using the F6 in its primary role as stand-alone recorder, and most tapers do not use its USB interface functionality.

Looking forward to talking more about organ recording with you..
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Zoom F6 (32-bit float equipped)
« Reply #344 on: September 09, 2020, 01:54:13 PM »
welcome organfreak!

i dont think the book is written on the F6. i should have it back by the weekend and will do my own tests

when i sent that to amir i knew little about testing and now have a better grasp on it so i feel that i can give it a good evaluation for our purposes

i too have made great (to my ears) recordings with the F6
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