Topic: Pipe Organ Dedication

[eric.B]

heynow..
A local church is having a pipe organ($85,000, 28 rank) dedication in a couple weeks and I am lucky enough to
be able to set up the rig for a tape.  I am looking for some possible pointers and/or advice in getting the best representation possible. 

ok... to describe the room..   I was there today(with no organ listen   ) to check out the room and talk with father jack...   It is approx 50x100 with very high vaulted ceiling(steeep pitch, real steep, 50ft high?) with the organ sitting in the balcony on one end..  There will also be singers on the balcony(singing obviously) for the dedication..  I have the opportunity to set up just off center at the end of a pew, just inside center aisle, and smack dab in the middle if I want with a stand(and no, hanging mics from the ceiling is NOT and option)....  The fatherman jack said that they have had several tuning sessions over the last few weeks, and I will be able to hear the organ on sunday, but will be unable to move around too much during the service..

equipment..   Pair of tlm170's>v2>dap1.. with the ability to run any config(besides jecklin)..   I was thinking blumlein, but if someone else has opinions, I would LOVE to hear them..  or get back to me with any other information to help in the process as I probably missed something..

tia

viva la garcia 

ericB


also.. If anyone would like to hear my description of the scene INSIDE the organ, Ill be glad to do so.. It is just plain crrazy sick..

 

[eric.B]

thanks for the quick response moke..
hmm.. I could be wrong on the room size..  It is probably bigger than 50x100, but cant say by how much.. 
also...  on the room..   it is brick with verry little sound deadening characteristics(except the people that will be there, and the pews), and a solid linoleum? floor..

yes, I have subcard pattern..

I know you have some experience with my type of challege, so I will take in the DIN card,subcard suggestion verry strongly..  the jecklin is a great idea but due to time and its obtrusiveness, it is unfeasible..   omni's huh?..  hmm..  maybe a 3or4 foot spread, but then again, I wanna be as discreet as possible...   hmm.. maybe ill know more after I hear this beast tho

I have never been "inside" a pipe organ before..  man, whoever builds these things is one sick mofo..


thanks!


edit**   NO..  there are no rear pipes..  if by pipes on the opposite sid of the organ itself(other side of the room)...

[eric.B]

Omnis are what will do your best capturing of the entire scenario, no two ways about it.
In acoustic recording, especially organs, your reverberant room qualities are as worthy of capturing as the initial attack of the note. Organ reverb decay is really sweet, and it comes from many different directions. So blumlein or some sort of spaced omnis. DIN will work fine if your soundfield is from the front, and the subcard option would allow for the sweet reverb decay to be adequately captured and not rolled off due to directional mic characteristics.

hmm..  so it's either DIN subcard or card, OR blumlein...   Ive never used the blumlein config., but know how to set it up.. the only unknown to me is how high to have them off the ground..  any suggestions?


thanks so much so far...

ericB

[pfife]

I don't have nearly the experience that Moke has with this stuff, but to me it sounds like a wonderful situation to try split omnis.

my $.02

[eric.B]

thanks for the input guys.. it is grately appreciated..

omni's would be great, but too obtrusive as i would need either two stands, or a bar to spread them..  dont think that would work for them.. 

sorrrtttaaa kinda sketchy on the blumlein because Ive never used it before, and am wary about pulling a tape that might not be as good as the subcard's DIN..   I only have ONE chance at this, and dont wanna blow it..

thanks again..


ericB

[Craig T]

DIN is too narrow for the subs, use NOS.

[Lee]

I wish I'd had the option to use blumlein when I recorded our pipe organ a while ago.  I used my 4022s in ORTF and it sounds OK, but not great.  Blumlein would be my choice with no rear pipes, or J-disc.  I always hesitate to use split, unbaffled omnis because, to my ears, it sounds like the tapes lack direction and focus (duh, they're omnis).

The thing I will caution you on with a pipe organ, is WATCH YOUR LEVELS!  If you can get a better AD in front of that P1, please do.  I'd recommend something apogee simply beacause you'd have the option to run soft limit so you don't get burned when the players music has fff on it   Beware the mighty voice of the pipe organ!

edit:  you said you were wary of Blumlein... I think it's a nice compromise between the directionality of a card/subcard tape and the openness of an omni tape.  YMMV, but I think it's an excellent option in this case.

[eric.B]

thanks moke, craig, pfife, and lee...

I had the opportunity to hear the organ this morning..  it sounds wondrous!
unfortunately, they will have a different person playing the organ(dr. Andrew Moore from Westminster Choir College in Princeton), so I dont think I got a real example of its sound..  but I think i heard enough..   

Im gonna go with the blumlein for sure.. and I think moke and lee's suggestion to watch the levels is a verry worthwhile one..  I can see the need for lotsa headroom in rooms such as these and soundsources like this one..  I wish I had an ad1000 for this..  dang.. Ill make do tho im sure..

Ill let you know how I make out..  its on Oct. 24th at 4pm.. 

thanks again for all your help...


ericB


 

[silentmark]

Eric if you want to use my modSBM1, it's yours, just give me a call ...

[TenoRichards]

I have never been "inside" a pipe organ before..  man, whoever builds these things is one sick mofo..
edit**   NO..  there are no rear pipes..  if by pipes on the opposite sid of the organ itself(other side of the room)...

I HAVE seen the inside of them and would have to concur. People think the computer chip is a feet of technical craftsmanship....until they see what's inside an organ. You can't describe the intricacy...

One VERY important factor in recording organs is the amount of noise you will get in the air pumping system. Our organ at church, with which I HAVE recorded is really tough to record, because of the inherant non-musical noise it puts out. In loud sections its not a problem, but in quieter much more so. I thought my adc was sucky and introducing all sorts of noise, but then realized it was simply the air being pushed thru the organ. So, you'll want to be far enuf away to not pick up too much of that. Now, this all changes if it is solid-state (and there are AMAZING sample organs out there that actually go thru speakers....shudder....the death of the TRUE organ, eh?) where you won't have all that messiness of having an ACTUAL organ.

Moke, the Spreckles, being outside is one amazing piece too. Because it's outside none of the above really matter, and because of it's size, the pumps and air bellows are all hidden skillfully away so as to mar the sound.

Now, combine all that with the ring of the room, and you've got a doozy of a challenge.

All the best,
Andrew

[eric.B]

thanks so much for your perspective Andrew..!

you are right.. no real words to describe the inside of the pipe organ..  I was amazed to see the little room INSIDE the organ for the other stages..  it was equipted with baffles that the player can open and close while playing to control the lower notes..  (at least I think that is what the "little room" is for)..   weird wild wacky crazy stuff there..

anyway..  last sunday I went to the service where they played the organ a bit..  I was sitting pretty much in the middle of the room and didnt hear any air going through the pipes during the quiet sections..   the organ itself is up on a balcony(large balcony) at one end of the room.. maybe up about 15 feet? I guess..  so the pips are well above head height if you are standing on the floor, which could be the reason why I didnt hear the air..  dunno tho...   

I think the room is about 60x120? maybe..  so if I am smack dab in the middle of the room , I wont be tooo close to the organ itself..  when I was there for the brief listen last sunday, I found the room to sound just great, without hearing the actual soundsource too much..  Understand?..

anyway again.. thanks for the post!..


eB

[BobW]

Some random, unfocused, not very experienced thoughts:

Anyone thinking about boundry Mics in this situation ?

Unbaffled omnis should be 1:3 spread to soundsource distances and it might get wierd with that much reverberation.

J-Disk is hard to beat in balance of room to source. Blumlein may get strange in reverberant space as with spaced omnis, perhaps worse due to the angles within the room.

A pipe organ usually uses the room extensively for it's sound, according to my buddy, the master piano builder(Steinway).
So much so, that the pipes are tuned to the room, when possible.
He would say, you will actually be inside the instrument, if it's an organ of any appreciable size.

I would try to be relatively close to the source to capture the percussion from the air plosives within the tubes.

How about outdoor carrilion ?
Sounds easy, split omnis ?

[eric.B]

hmm I agree Ohm on your statement....

"""A pipe organ usually uses the room extensively for it's sound, according to my buddy, the master piano builder(Steinway).
So much so, that the pipes are tuned to the room, when possible.
He would say, you will actually be inside the instrument, if it's an organ of any appreciable size""""

upon hearing the organ for just a little bit.. I agree that the organ IS the room..  and its not a small organ, or a large one, it is a medium size one so I am told(28 stage)..  hmmm

Ive never used or experience boundry mics.. so I cant reflect at all on your suggestion.. 

hmmagain..  I guess there are quite a few ways to record this thing..  and really the best option would be to test record a couple times to find the one that is right..  shame Ill be in VT. this weekend and the dedication is the following sunday..   dang..

now im thinking just cards/NOS or DIN..  Im confused now a bit..   

still looking forward to it tho   

[silentmark]

Well ?

How did it work out ?

[eric.B]

hey again..
thanks for all your recomendations and help.. it is grately appreciated!

I had the opportunity to go to the rehearsal last friday to try out a couple configs.  I tried blumlein and NOS subcard..  with the nod going to the NOS.  I ended using Blumlein tho as I needed to pick up other parts of the service that were taking place in other parts of the room.  I really dont have any experience listening to recording such as this, but I am pleased with the results.  It's a little tough to get past all the ambient sound when there is silence in the room (paper rustle, coughing, sniffles, creaks, squeaks and the like).. but when the organ is flowing and the choir is singing.. it sounds pretty sweet!  I have some editing to do in the next couple days to fit all of it onto one disk, but should get it done by the end of the week..

here are a couple of pics for your enjoyment..
thanks again guys!