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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: StarkRavingCalm on August 15, 2012, 04:14:01 PM
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Good day all,
I am thinking about looking into other microphones to see if I can get a better recording than what I am using now.
Let me first of all state, that I am happy with my recordings now. I have both the mid-range Core Sounds Binaurals and mid-range Core Sounds Cardioids and am pleased with both. I feel that they give me a very good reproduction of 'being there'.
But lately I have been feeling that my recordings are lacking warmth and want to look at other mics since I want to stick with my DR-2D.
I don't see Core Sounds getting any love on these forums, why is that?
What about marcsounds? I recently transferred a DAT of a recording made with them and I really noticed how warm it souded but I cannot seem to find any info on these mics other than a few people listing them in their source details.
What does everyone recommend?
What can give me warmth but be around my original price-range on the CS?
Is anyone offering\working on a 'warm-mod' for the DR-2D?
What about putting a tinybox in-line?
Thanks in advance
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Two ways of doing this (warm mics, and warm preamps).
But first, by warmth, is it butter smooth texture at the expense of transient detail that you mean by "warm" or is it more bass and lower midrange compared to bright/cold tonal balance?
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What type of material do you record, in what settings, and in what configuration?
General budget?
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Two ways of doing this (warm mics, and warm preamps).
But first, by warmth, is it butter smooth texture at the expense of transient detail that you mean by "warm" or is it more bass and lower midrange compared to bright/cold tonal balance?
I would go with balance, but I am not sure of definition of texture as opposed to balance.
What type of material do you record, in what settings, and in what configuration?
General budget?
Generally rock, less and less where I am up near the stack at small clubs, now mainly festival-type situations where I am either FOB and SBD or FOB and maybe stealthing.
Occasionally jazz-type shows.
Price would be dependent on benefit. If it is light years above the Core Sounds, then I would pay a little more, if not then I am comfortable in that price range.
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Bluntly, core sounds were adequate 15 years ago, but since, better stuff has come out. Consider AT853s. Bigger, but much better.
With small mics like you are talking about I'm not sure "warmth" is the issue
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If budget is of no concern, and you want great sound in a tiny package, you need DPAs...
If budget is of concern, I would recommend a set of Church Audio mics, or the AT853s... The CA mics are about the same size as the DPAs, and offer performance arguably as good as the DPAs for a fraction of the price... The ATs offer the advantage of interchangable caps for different situations and many accessories...
All three will out perform the CSBs any day of the week... As AJ said, the CSBs were acceptable a decade ago, but technology has passed them by... Time to upgrade!
As to your "warmth" question, if you are planning on micro-mics, you'll want a "warm" preamp... Talk to the guys using the Naiant TinyBox preamps and see what they say. Those are really nice and can be custom made to a variety of mics and flavors...
Terry
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Agreed that a fat pre might be the way to go. However, if you can run full size LDC my modded Oktava 319's would do the job nicely. check out the comp over at archive furthur 3-29-11 Binghampton.... Sameless plug but I've gotta move some stuff, buy some stuff and these seem like the sound he is searching for.
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Thank you all for your suggestions.
I think my first step will be to invest in a tinybox. But I will really need to educate myself on them.
That way I can compare mic to mic with preamp and take it from there.
Would my questions on tinybox be best under a separate thread?
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Would my questions on tinybox be best under a separate thread?
yeah, you'll get a better response in either in the Naiant team thread or in Jon's retail thread.
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Why are people recommending the tinybox when what the OP asked for is "warm"? There are many fine things I can say about the tinybox, but "warm" isn't one of them..
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I don't see Core Sounds getting any love on these forums, why is that?
IMHO, Core Sound sucks and customer service is horrible (both from stories I've heard and personal experience when Len implied he thought I was lying to him when I said I didn't receive a cable he said he shipped me). I agree with Terry 100%. There are a number of much better options available now and many of them are much cheaper.
If budget is of concern, I would recommend a set of Church Audio mics, or the AT853s... The CA mics are about the same size as the DPAs, and offer performance arguably as good as the DPAs for a fraction of the price... The ATs offer the advantage of interchangable caps for different situations and many accessories...
All three will out perform the CSBs any day of the week... As AJ said, the CSBs were acceptable a decade ago, but technology has passed them by... Time to upgrade!
Terry
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Why are people recommending the tinybox when what the OP asked for is "warm"? There are many fine things I can say about the tinybox, but "warm" isn't one of them..
I was thinking the same thing.
Also, as someone who has used CSB's, DPA4060's, AKG C414's and MBHO KA200N's, I have to say that the CSB's were the certainly the warmest of them all. Assuming of course that "warm" means something like lots of lows and somewhat rolled-off high end.
Strangely enough, some of my favorite recordings were made with CSBs. They were also impossible to overload.
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Why are people recommending the tinybox when what the OP asked for is "warm"? There are many fine things I can say about the tinybox, but "warm" isn't one of them..
Is the 'warmth' I am referring to possible with the Tinybox? (Which I may buy irregardless)
I was thinking the same thing.
Also, as someone who has used CSB's, DPA4060's, AKG C414's and MBHO KA200N's, I have to say that the CSB's were the certainly the warmest of them all. Assuming of course that "warm" means something like lots of lows and somewhat rolled-off high end.
Strangely enough, some of my favorite recordings were made with CSBs. They were also impossible to overload.
The main reason I moved off of CSBs right now is I mainly do FOB outdoors these days with my mics connected to the front of the table\stand what have you that the engineers are using.
The CSBs picked up their conversations between songs. Haven't had the same experience with CSCs.
So I do think some of what I miss is the warmth of CSBs (and my old Sony D7 and D8), I'd like to offset that somehow.
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Why are people recommending the tinybox when what the OP asked for is "warm"? There are many fine things I can say about the tinybox, but "warm" isn't one of them..
My bad... I must have been thinking of the Little Boxes, with the Transformer outs...
Terry
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The main reason I moved off of CSBs right now is I mainly do FOB outdoors these days with my mics connected to the front of the table\stand what have you that the engineers are using.
The CSBs picked up their conversations between songs. Haven't had the same experience with CSCs.
So I do think some of what I miss is the warmth of CSBs (and my old Sony D7 and D8), I'd like to offset that somehow.
Sounds to me like you need better cardioid mics. Frankly, CSC's just don't sound that great. I assume the Church Audio cards would sound a lot better, but I haven't used them myself.
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Sounds to me like you need better cardioid mics. Frankly, CSC's just don't sound that great. I assume the Church Audio cards would sound a lot better, but I haven't used them myself.
CA's seem to get a lot of love here. I may need to look into them.
So if the Tinybox is not the solution for warmth , then what are the main benefits to using it?
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The main benefit to tinybox is powering microphones of any type, second benefit is gain, lastly is output options such as the capability to drive high or low impedance headphones, decode/encode mid-side, etc.
Thanks.
I don't want to clog up the thread with my questions on tinybox since the main question was 'warm mics'
I can post over on the pre-amp page or Team Naiant page.
Still on topic, does anyone know what happened to marcsounds mics?
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The main reason I moved off of CSBs right now is I mainly do FOB outdoors these days with my mics connected to the front of the table\stand what have you that the engineers are using.
The CSBs picked up their conversations between songs. Haven't had the same experience with CSCs.
So I do think some of what I miss is the warmth of CSBs (and my old Sony D7 and D8), I'd like to offset that somehow.
As others have mentioned "warmth" is simply too vague a term to prove helpful. Any number of factors could contribute to your dissatisfaction with the recordings: mics, location, configuration, etc. (If your'e attaching the mics to a table, odds are their low placement will significantly and negatively impact the sound.)
From your description above, I suspect you're missing the CSB's flatter frequency response and more open, natural polar pattern. Relative to the the CSB's, the CSC's aren't as flat, rolling off on the low end, having a "slight frequency rise" across the 40 Hz - 18 kHz range, and including a small high frequency peak of ~2 dB between 9 - 12 kHz. (This per the CS website.) A bit hard to tell how different the frequency response is between the two since as far as I can tell CS doesn't publish frequency response graphs, and it's difficult to define "slight frequency rise". Additionally, the CSCs have a more closed polar pattern, which will impact their sonic characteristics. FWIW, the CSCs are probably my least-favorite cardioid (to put it politely).
How about posting a sample of a CSB recording you like, and one of a CSC recording you don't like? I suspect many TSers here have heard more than their share of recordings from both sets of mics and may be able to provide input like: "yep, typical CSB / CSC sound", or "nope, your CSB / CSCs shouldn't sound that way", etc.
Also, check out sample recordings of other mics in your price range -- perhaps the AT853s, Church Audio CA-11s and -14s. -- and see how you like them.
Ultimately, for me it boils down to: I do not think a preamp or recorder will address the differences you hear between the CSB and CSC, so I'd skip thinking about spending money on anything other than an alternative pair of mics.
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There is nothing vague about it - if you want the warmest rig around, crotch a 722.
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Get on the Dime or another BT, and listen to current recordings and develop a list of your favorite mics.
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Get on the Dime or another BT, and listen to current recordings and develop a list of your favorite mics.
Archive is another good resource...
Terry
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I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics are "light years" better than the CSBs. In fact, I think that they sound much more similar than different. I think that a lot of the difference is due to the fact that the CA and AT mics can have cardioid patterns, but the CSBs are omnis and the CSCs are cardioid but sound awful. It all depends on how you use them and on what capsules you use. In my view, the only mics that are a significant step up from the CSB, AT, and CA are the dpa 4060/4061 and Countryman B3 (I haven't heard too many Nevaton recordings), and those cost two to three times as much as the other three options.
For the open-air music festivals that that the OP says that he tapes, the CSBs may be better than the other two options because he does not have do deal with the directionality and frequency response issues of a club. At least I always prefer the sound of omnis outside to that of cardioids; others will have different opinions (and theirs will be, of course, wrong).
Stealthing presents a different sort of challenges, however. In clubs, cardioids may be a better choice, but you can make perfectly good recordings with omnis if you can roll off the bass and process the recording a little bit afterwards. In arenas, cardioids are definitely the better choice.
I would suggest looking on DIME and etree for recordings made with the various microphone choices and in recording situations similar to the ones in which you intend to tape. After listening to them, you can approach the situation with more information.
Personally, if I wanted to throw a little bit of cash at the problem to get "warmer" recordings, I would keep the CSBs while selling the CSCs and the recorder, and pick up a Sony M10. The M10 has a good microphone preamplifier, an excellent A/D converter, and would likely be a warmer-sounding device than the current recorder. If you have your heart set on keeping the recorder, you may want to see if you can pick up a Church Audio preamplifier instead.
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I'd like to take a step back for clarification. I think one of the reasons you're getting suggestions all across the board: there isn't common understanding of what it is you like and dislike with your current gear. In some posts, you're very happy with your recordings from both the CSBs and CSCs. And in others, you find them lacking. As I re-read all of your posts in the thread, I think what you're saying is roughly the following:
- You're generally pleased with your CSBs.
- You don't like that the CSBs pick up relatively close-proximity environmental sounds (like nearby sound engineers / people talking).
- You added CSCs to your gear to address the issue above (#2), and are pleased with the way the CSCs minimize relatively close-proximity environmental sounds.
- However, when using the CSCs, you miss the "warmth" (as yet undefined) of the CSBs.
Have I summarized your perspective reasonably well?
If no, please clarify?
But if yes, I don't think the core issue in #4 is related to preamp or ADC / recorder. It's the CSCs. So consider:
- Keeping your current preamp / ADC / recorder.
- Keeping the CSBs for situations in which omnis are appropriate (e.g. when you're not terribly concerned about people talking loudly nearby). After all, you quite like them aside from when they pick up talking nearby.
- Switching to a better pair of cardioids for situations in which cardioids are appropriate (e.g. when you're more concerned about people talking loudly nearby). Whether or not they'll deliver the "warmth" you find missing, no one can answer until we've defined "warmth". But I bet there's pretty broad agreement a pair of cardioids better than the CSCs -- while minimizing nearby environmental sounds, as desired -- will provide substantially better results.
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Yes. Exactly. You summed it up perfectly.
I love my DR-2D and would only consider parting with it if a better machine with the same options came along.
So, it sounds like better carioids are the way top go.
Everyone seems to really like the CAs, maybe thats how I should go.
Or maybe have a non-stealthy type of mic for those times where I have permission to tape.
And use the CSBs in those other type of situations
Decisions....
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The later is the way to go. Pick up some nicer full size mics.
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I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics are "light years" better than the CSBs. In fact, I think that they sound much more similar than different. I think that a lot of the difference is due to the fact that the CA and AT mics can have cardioid patterns, but the CSBs are omnis and the CSCs are cardioid but sound awful. It all depends on how you use them and on what capsules you use. In my view, the only mics that are a significant step up from the CSB, AT, and CA are the dpa 4060/4061 and Countryman B3 (I haven't heard too many Nevaton recordings), and those cost two to three times as much as the other three options.
For the open-air music festivals that that the OP says that he tapes, the CSBs may be better than the other two options because he does not have do deal with the directionality and frequency response issues of a club. At least I always prefer the sound of omnis outside to that of cardioids; others will have different opinions (and theirs will be, of course, wrong).
You are not the only one to feel that the Church Audio and Audio-Technica mics sound more similar than different. I believe that you can’t go wrong with DPA4061!!
Koichi
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Thanks everyone for their suggestions. I think I am leaning towards the AT853 at this time. The DPA4061 seems to be a great microphone but since it is an omni, I feel I will likely running into the same gripe I have with the CSBs.
The AT853 configurations kinda confuse me and I do not see anything on their website about it?
Is the hanging version 'configurable' (for lack of a better word) enough that I could make it work in 'non-hanging' situations?
There seems to be several different versions of the 853, I would prefer the full size version as I would be using them for non-stealth recording.
Which one do people recommend?
I also don't see any on the loaner page. Anyone willing to loan?
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Thanks everyone for their suggestions. I think I am leaning towards the AT853 at this time. The DPA4061 seems to be a great microphone but since it is an omni, I feel I will likely running into the same gripe I have with the CSBs.
The AT853 configurations kinda confuse me and I do not see anything on their website about it?
Is the hanging version 'configurable' (for lack of a better word) enough that I could make it work in 'non-hanging' situations?
There seems to be several different versions of the 853, I would prefer the full size version as I would be using them for non-stealth recording.
Which one do people recommend?
I also don't see any on the loaner page. Anyone willing to loan?
If you are not stealthing, why would you get AT853s? They're fine mics, but for the price, you can get all manner of full size mics that are better.
That said, for configs of 853s that are pre-made for recording the way we do it, try www.soundprofessionals.com Look at the model "SP-CMC-4" which is what they cal the AT853.
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They were one of the suggested mics for what I am looking for (warmer carioids).
They seem to come in a variety of configurations, so, in cases where I am not stealthing, I would like to use something other than minis.
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They were one of the suggested mics for what I am looking for (warmer carioids).
They seem to come in a variety of configurations, so, in cases where I am not stealthing, I would like to use something other than minis.
If you want them for stealth and non-stealth, then they're a good choice. For non-stealth only, they are not, since cheap SDCs can be had that sound better.
There is really only one "real" config which is the standard 3-wire config made by Audio Technica, which can be paired with their phantom power adapter.
For what you are doing, I would go to Sound Professionals, have each mic terminated in 3-wire. Or have both mics custom-terminated in a single 6pin mini-XLR and get a tinybox to work with it - but you'd need to check with Naiant that that's possible.
I would not recommend the miniplug configuration unless you're buying a used set. I had that config, and it worked fine with the 4.7k mod, but it's preferable to power them as intended rather than achieve the high SPL tolerance required by having a mod done.
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line audio cm3
http://www.lineaudio.se/linemic.htm
the poor man's km84??
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So what do people recommend for a full size, "warm" cardioid mic?
I like CS's price point and would be willing to spend a little more if I was pleased with it.
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You won't get a warmer, fuller sounding mic than what I recommended earlier. That is my modified Oktava 319's. As I mentioned you can comp them with other mics that were used at the Furthur Binghamton show on 3-29-11. Listen to them on a good system and compare them to all the other mics that were used, Shure, AKG's, Neumann, etc and I think you will agree that these are great sounding microphones. Right now I have lowered the price to $425, which is a steal. But I need the money and I have 2 pairs of these mics.
So keep what you have for stealthing and then pull these out for open taping.
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You won't get a warmer, fuller sounding mic than what I recommended earlier. That is my modified Oktava 319's. As I mentioned you can comp them with other mics that were used at the Furthur Binghamton show on 3-29-11. Listen to them on a good system and compare them to all the other mics that were used, Shure, AKG's, Neumann, etc and I think you will agree that these are great sounding microphones. Right now I have lowered the price to $425, which is a steal. But I need the money and I have 2 pairs of these mics.
So keep what you have for stealthing and then pull these out for open taping.
Those sound really nice! Nice full sound, very balanced, definitely fits my definition of 'warm'.
I thought there was alot of bass, but some of the other recordings from that night had quite a bit as well so it could have just been that show, placement, venue etc...
I am going to post about them on the loaner board, maybe I will have an opportunity to try them out before I make the purchase, especially since this will require a pre-amp as well.
What is the connector on this mic?
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I not sure anyone else packs these, so trying out a pair would be difficult. I think this pair is spoken for. I do have a second pair but I won't part with them. You could buy a stock pair and send them of to be modded, however, it wouldnt be the deal I was given. If you are good with an iron you could mod your own and get away with a better price.
You really need shock mounts with them. A pair of eBay special at around $40 a pair works nicely.
If you lived close to me I would loan you a pair but otherwise Im not into mailing them as a loan.
Ribbon mics also have a very warm sound. However, they are more fragile and often need a transformer upgrade to extend the lows and highs, making them more costly.
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Sennheiser 8040's.
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ok, so I was really heading towards the modded MK-319s. I really like the samples I heard and being able to get them cheap on ebay was a really good option.
But in thinking about it, I think they are beyond what I am looking for size-wise.
I really only have one band that I have the opportunity to openly tape with, all other shows are better suited towards the CS sized mics.
Several people have recommended CAs, what else is recommended for:
1 - Warmth
2 - Size (maybe not "full size", but not mini\micro either)
3 - Price (rather stay under 400 but would entertain others around that range
4 - Is a single (not a pair) stereo mic out there?
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ok, so I was really heading towards the modded MK-319s. I really like the samples I heard and being able to get them cheap on ebay was a really good option.
But in thinking about it, I think they are beyond what I am looking for size-wise.
I really only have one band that I have the opportunity to openly tape with, all other shows are better suited towards the CS sized mics.
Several people have recommended CAs, what else is recommended for:
1 - Warmth
2 - Size (maybe not "full size", but not mini\micro either)
3 - Price (rather stay under 400 but would entertain others around that range
4 - Is a single (not a pair) stereo mic out there?
Have you considered these?:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=157793.msg1989549#msg1989549
Priced to sell.