Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Recording Gear => Topic started by: voltronic on February 25, 2022, 08:47:29 AM
-
As expected, Zoom has updated the F8n to use the same dual-ADC / 32-bit float point recording tech as in the F3 and F6.
https://www.newsshooter.com/2022/02/25/zoom-f8n-pro-multitrack-field-recorder-with-32-bit-float/ (https://www.newsshooter.com/2022/02/25/zoom-f8n-pro-multitrack-field-recorder-with-32-bit-float/)
-
Looks lovely.
-
Looks great to me! Excited to read reviews and user experiences once it is available.
-
Is Dual ADC / 32-bit Float the only change from the F8N?
I take this to mean I should be able to pick up a F8N for a good price as they are being cleared out to make way for the Pro! Will be helpful to have a second recorder to my original F8.
-
This looks like a strong contender if I ever need to upgrade to more channels from my MP6
-
And hopefully any firmware updates for F8N-PRO will apply to previous F8N and F8 models (as F8N firmware updates have continued support of F8)
-
And hopefully any firmware updates for F8N-PRO will apply to previous F8N and F8 models (as F8N firmware updates have continued support of F8)
And saw them make a note that they were going to be rolling out the cell phone app for Android by March 2022. I'll believe it when I see it, but FINALLY.
-
^ Wooo! (android user here) Looking forward to that.
I really want them to fix Mid/Side monitoring/playback as well, providing the ability to adjust stereo width and overall playback level of a Mid/Side pair recorded as raw Mid and Side channels. Others may not care but that one is a continuing hassle for me.
-
^ Wooo! (android user here) Looking forward to that.
I really want them to fix Mid/Side monitoring/playback as well, providing the ability to adjust stereo width and overall playback level of a Mid/Side pair recorded as raw Mid and Side channels. Others may not care but that one is a continuing hassle for me.
Indeed - trivial for them to add I would have thought. Same applies to the F3. I just don't understand why this feature is being omitted when these devices are intended for uses which might well include MS mics.
-
Not sure. If you look in the F8 manual at the block diagram on p.184, the M/S circuits, polarity switches, and delay sections (all of which I wish were available upon playback) are all on the input side of the bus, unavailable to the player side. However, that diagram does not explain how M/S can decoded on playback by routing those channels prefader (which unfortunately means no level and M/S ratio control), so maybe there is hope!
Another function I would like them to update via firmware is a modification to the input Trim Link function. Currently when any set of channels are trim-linked, their input gains are automatically adjusted so as to be equal to each other. In other words, all linked channels are forced to have the same input trim level. Took me a while to realize what was going on whenever I'd link them so I could adjust pairs or the entire bunch simultaneously with a single knob-turn, I was eradicating the relative input trim differences I had set between the channels.
In contrast, the similar Tascam DR680 "Channel Ganging" feature does allow for different trims between ganged channels. One can gang/un-gang various channel combinations to adjust pairs in unison or the entire bunch together at any time without automatically resetting the trims and screwing up the relative balances. If one does want all linked channel trims to be identical (say for an ambisonic microphone). They can be set that way before linking them.
-
What's everybody's preferred powering method for an F8 these days? Grabbing a used one and trying to figure out how best to power it.
-
12VDC Talentcell feeding the A/C>D/C wall adapter port.
-
12VDC Talentcell feeding the A/C>D/C wall adapter port.
Thanks. Looks like the 6kmAh ones are surprisingly cheap and both connectors are 5.5mm center pos so guess I just need a double barrel cable?
-
I use this 11000mA/hr one- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016BJCRUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Its likely larger than you really need, but I like having plenty of excess capacity. One half that of capacity should be fine for typical gigs if not a full fest day as long as its fully charged..
Still, best practice to keep 8 AA's in the recorder as power backup just in case.
^
This actually bit me last Saturday recording Dumpstaphunk. I'd grown complacent and didn't have AA's in there AND forgot to swap the mostly-drained Talentcell in my recording bag for the well-charged alternate Talentcell I'd intended to take, resulting in the first time I've ever run the Talentcell all the way down to shut-off. When it shut down I ran across the street to a Wallgreens to purchase AA's and get running again, missing about 15-20 minutes. D'oh!
Yes, just need the appropriate sized coaxial power plug on both ends. I do have mine setup as a 'Y' to allow hot swapping between Talentcells (ala DVD batteries of yore), but have never actually needed to do that. Keep in mind that the 12V and 9v ports on the Talentcells are slightly different sizes from each other.
-
I'm disappointed to see that Zoom didn't add support for NP-F batteries to the F8n Pro. I really expected it since the F6 supports them.
-
Personally I'm okay with that. I don't want to have to pull the recorder out of my bag to access the back for a battery swap while recording. If using NP-F I'd rather use an outboard sled attached to the locking hirose power input, but I'm fully satisfied using a Talentcell into the non-locking coaxial adapter port, as I expect most tapers will be.
I really want them to fix Mid/Side monitoring and Input Trim linking though!
-
In contrast, the similar Tascam DR680 "Channel Ganging" feature does allow for different trims between ganged channels. One can gang/un-gang various channel combinations to adjust pairs in unison or the entire bunch together at any time without automatically resetting the trims and screwing up the relative balances. If one does want all linked channel trims to be identical (say for an ambisonic microphone). They can be set that way before linking them.
I have grown to love this about my 680mkii.
Interesting to see the changes to this recorder. Thinking about getting a box with 32bit float so this one is in contention with the F6/MP6ii.
-
I use this 11000mA/hr one- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016BJCRUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Its likely larger than you really need, but I like having plenty of excess capacity. One half that of capacity should be fine for typical gigs if not a full fest day as long as its fully charged..
Still, best practice to keep 8 AA's in the recorder as power backup just in case.
^
This actually bit me last Saturday recording Dumpstaphunk. I'd grown complacent and didn't have AA's in there AND forgot to swap the mostly-drained Talentcell in my recording bag for the well-charged alternate Talentcell I'd intended to take, resulting in the first time I've ever run the Talentcell all the way down to shut-off. When it shut down I ran across the street to a Wallgreens to purchase AA's and get running again, missing about 15-20 minutes. D'oh!
Yes, just need the appropriate sized coaxial power plug on both ends. I do have mine setup as a 'Y' to allow hot swapping between Talentcells (ala DVD batteries of yore), but have never actually needed to do that. Keep in mind that the 12V and 9v ports on the Talentcells are slightly different sizes from each other.
Have you run all 6 XLR's at once? I will run 6 Shure SM57 mics for approx 6 hours. Just wondering if it will be enough tp power them that long?
-
I use this 11000mA/hr one- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016BJCRUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Its likely larger than you really need, but I like having plenty of excess capacity. One half that of capacity should be fine for typical gigs if not a full fest day as long as its fully charged..
Still, best practice to keep 8 AA's in the recorder as power backup just in case.
^
This actually bit me last Saturday recording Dumpstaphunk. I'd grown complacent and didn't have AA's in there AND forgot to swap the mostly-drained Talentcell in my recording bag for the well-charged alternate Talentcell I'd intended to take, resulting in the first time I've ever run the Talentcell all the way down to shut-off. When it shut down I ran across the street to a Wallgreens to purchase AA's and get running again, missing about 15-20 minutes. D'oh!
Yes, just need the appropriate sized coaxial power plug on both ends. I do have mine setup as a 'Y' to allow hot swapping between Talentcells (ala DVD batteries of yore), but have never actually needed to do that. Keep in mind that the 12V and 9v ports on the Talentcells are slightly different sizes from each other.
Have you run all 6 XLR's at once? I will run 6 Shure SM57 mics for approx 6 hours. Just wondering if it will be enough tp power them that long?
apples to oranges on the question, but:
Zoom F8n - Powerex Pro 2700mAh AA battery run time with 8 phantom powered mics, outputs off. 3hrs 41.5 minutes - so subtract 16-20mA phantom power from that to get something closer to your situation.
I haven't tested my 6000mAh Talentcell limits, but with internal AA's would expect a whole day + based on what I've seen.
-
Request for future battery run time tests with P48 mics:
List which mics were used, along with their current consumption specs. Or at least list the mics and we can look up the current specs. This will help other people who are considering purchasing the same deck / external battery / etc. judge what runtimes to expect with their own mics.
-
Request for future battery run time tests with P48 mics:
List which mics were used, along with their current consumption specs. Or at least list the mics and we can look up the current specs. This will help other people who are considering purchasing the same deck / external battery / etc. judge what runtimes to expect with their own mics.
In my example that info can likely be found wherever I originally posted it here. It’s been awhile.
-
Have you run all 6 XLR's at once? I will run 6 Shure SM57 mics for approx 6 hours. Just wondering if it will be enough tp power them that long?
I use F8 (the original recipe V1 model) with phantom power engaged across all 8 input channels. My input list consists of: 6 Naiant PFA's (supporting 2x DPA 4061 and 4x DPA 4098H microphones), one DPA DAD6001 XLR adapter (supporting one additional DPA 4098H), and one Naiant X8 figure-8 microphone which is connected directly.
As a dynamic microphone, Shure SM57 doesn't require phantom powering. With phantom power turned off on all input channels, runtime on batteries will increase. However, I'd still be most conformable using an external Li-Ion external battery as primary power source in combination with the internal AA batteries serving as uninterruptible backup. If its size is of concern, you can get by with a significantly smaller capacity external battery in your usage case. The large-capacity Tallentcell model I linked previously is somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the size of the F8 without any input cables attached to it. The weight difference of a smaller external battery isn't likely to be as significant as size/form-factor and how everything fits into the bag.
-
In contrast, the similar Tascam DR680 "Channel Ganging" feature does allow for different trims between ganged channels. One can gang/un-gang various channel combinations to adjust pairs in unison or the entire bunch together at any time without automatically resetting the trims and screwing up the relative balances. If one does want all linked channel trims to be identical (say for an ambisonic microphone). They can be set that way before linking them.
I have grown to love this about my 680mkii.
I really wish Zoom would implement the ability to not force an identical trim setting on all channels selected for Trim linking, in a way similar to how it is implemented in the DR680. That is my #1 feature request which if implemented would make the recorder far more usable for me, and could be accomplished via a firmware update.
My second feature request is fixing the Mid/Side > Left/Right playback matrix to provide any capability for adjusting playback level and M/S ratio of the pair, either directly via a ratio control, or by simply providing a way to adjust Mid and Side output levels independently when the output matrix is engaged for the pair. This is also annoying, but is ultimately of less importance because it doesn't effect the recording side of things at least.
-
Request for future battery run time tests with P48 mics:
List which mics were used, along with their current consumption specs. Or at least list the mics and we can look up the current specs. This will help other people who are considering purchasing the same deck / external battery / etc. judge what runtimes to expect with their own mics.
In my example that info can likely be found wherever I originally posted it here. It’s been awhile.
Sorry if I missed it. That wasn't directed just at you, but to the community.
-
I really wish Zoom would implement the ability to not force an identical trim setting on all channels selected for Trim linking, in a way similar to how it is implemented in the DR680. That is my #1 feature request which if implemented would make the recorder far more usable for me, and could be accomplished via a firmware update.
So one trim to rule them all, but the channels maintain their preset relative differences in level from one another as you adjust global trim? That would be a neat option. I suppose the next best thing is set your 8 channel trims in 4 linked stereo pairs, and you can match the relative differences from the on-screen level readout as you adjust. Less convenient, but it would work. That's how I have my F6 set up.
This isn't the answer you want, but if you upgrade to the new F8, this is solved by the 32FP option because you just balance your mix and don't need to adjust anything during the concert.
For me, I never bother with trying to make a multipair "mix" work on the recorder because I obsess over it in post in a quiet setup at home. But I get why people want/need to do it your way, especially film and TV sound crews.
-
Yes. On the DR680 channel trims retain whatever level each was set at prior to linking (referred to as channel ganging on the Tascam). The cost of that approach is some reduction of the full range of adjustment of the ganged channel set by whatever the maximum offset between channels happens to be, as once any channel reaches the max or min trim point all other ganged channels also cease to adjust in that direction, prior to them reaching the full min/max limit. That is the correct implementation IMO, as it always retains the same relative trim relationship between all ganged channels, while providing for the greatest range of adjustment under that primary constraint.
All F8 users should be aware that anytime trim linking is implemented, the previous trim settings for the channels being linked instantly changes to force them to be identical, unless the trim on those channels was already set identically. That behavior is not obvious when engaging trim linking while recording, and is not mentioned in the manual. It took me a while to realize what was happening.
32FP doesn't help me with this because I already use the recorder in that way in 24bit mode.. for the most part. I do increase trim for some quiet stuff just because, although I don't realty need to. There are other more compelling reasons..
Yes levels eventually get readjusted by ear afterward on the computer, and yes I often use the work around of linking individual pairs or subset groups rather than the entire mic-array in one set. A big reason for me is the work around of the Mid/Side monitoring issue I mentioned above. Playback directly from the recorder that includes Mid/Side decoding requires that the desired Mid/Side ratio be determined by the relative difference in trim setting between Mid and Side channels at the time of recording. Unless that were to equate to equal Mid and Side channel trims (it never does) that pair cannot be trim-linked. It would also make it easier to retain a rough mix for patchers, although that would benefit further from monitor mix levels also being linkable in the same way.
-
I use this 11000mA/hr one- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016BJCRUO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Its likely larger than you really need, but I like having plenty of excess capacity. One half that of capacity should be fine for typical gigs if not a full fest day as long as its fully charged..
Still, best practice to keep 8 AA's in the recorder as power backup just in case.
^
This actually bit me last Saturday recording Dumpstaphunk. I'd grown complacent and didn't have AA's in there AND forgot to swap the mostly-drained Talentcell in my recording bag for the well-charged alternate Talentcell I'd intended to take, resulting in the first time I've ever run the Talentcell all the way down to shut-off. When it shut down I ran across the street to a Wallgreens to purchase AA's and get running again, missing about 15-20 minutes. D'oh!
Yes, just need the appropriate sized coaxial power plug on both ends. I do have mine setup as a 'Y' to allow hot swapping between Talentcells (ala DVD batteries of yore), but have never actually needed to do that. Keep in mind that the 12V and 9v ports on the Talentcells are slightly different sizes from each other.
My F8n Pro and above battery arrive tomorrow.
You mention "Yes, just need the appropriate sized coaxial power plug on both ends."
Is there anyone in particular you recommend?
Thanks for all rhe help and input.
-
I use a coaxial power cable and "Y" cable I already had on hand.
I'd think you can probably find a pre-made one easily on the internet, or Ted Gakidis can make you a nice one (TS member tgakidis (https://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19317))
Link to his cable building thead: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=133186.0
Email: tgakidis@gmail.com
-
I just use these:
https://www.amazon.com/Alvins-Cables-Hirose-Devices-Blackmagic/dp/B01KK8MY5U/ref=sr_1_1?crid=F8NICEK612O6&keywords=hirose%2Bzoom%2Bf8&qid=1683296248&sprefix=hirose%2Bzoom%2Bf8%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-1&th=1
For my main power. And then keep AA batteries in the recorder as a backup (or if need to switch batteries).
-
I just completed the family, adding this to my Zoom f3 and f6 collection. It seems a little gratuitous but I can see scenarios where I'd be using at least two out of the 3.
Any quirks I should be aware of? I think I'm most interested in what battery life I can get out of 8 lithium AA batteries (which I intend on using as a backup) along with having a l-series sony battery connected via the hirose connector.
Anyone have experience time syncing one of these with the Zoom F6? I can see a few circumstances where I'd have access to multitracks and may be useful to use both recorders to capture everything.
-
The stuff covered in the thread already.. for me that's the stuff mentioned higher up on this page, re: Channel input trim linking and Mid/Side monitoring; also a reminder to add sufficient digital gain to the headphone amp.
Will be curious to hear about syncing with other F-series recorders. I haven't done that.
-
I just completed the family, adding this to my Zoom f3 and f6 collection. It seems a little gratuitous but I can see scenarios where I'd be using at least two out of the 3.
Any quirks I should be aware of? I think I'm most interested in what battery life I can get out of 8 lithium AA batteries (which I intend on using as a backup) along with having a l-series sony battery connected via the hirose connector.
Anyone have experience time syncing one of these with the Zoom F6? I can see a few circumstances where I'd have access to multitracks and may be useful to use both recorders to capture everything.
This video shows how to time code sync two F6 recorders. He also mentions he just bought a F8n Pro & will look into syncing that with the F6.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvUAcosMcoc&t=17s
-
I was interested in using timecode to make sure multiple recorders were in sync for multitrack, but apparently it's not precise enough for that. You'll still have to time align them in post, and potentially stretch/retime to match. But it will probably at least help.
-
It sounds like there's a bit of disagreement in the comments about how the test in that video was done. But it seems like a better way to sync multiple recorders would be to feed them from the same digital master clock. One commenter addresses this:
@bernard8ulrich 1 year ago
Interesting BUT : but from a purist point of view this setup isn't correct to avoid phase problem between the tracks on each recorder. It's only Time-Code Sync not Word Clock sharing. If you want to preserve phase you need to be synchronized on sample rate that is far more that 1/25 second. That is the purpose of Word Clock and the connection for this standard is BNC.
-
@bernard8ulrich 1 year ago
[snip..]That is the purpose of Word Clock and the connection for this standard is BNC.
True, although the other standard Word Clock connection frequently found on the gear commonly used by tapers is RCA. I've also seen it over mini-plug on a few smaller recorders, but that's not common.
With more accurate modern clocks that drift less I do wonder if time-code sync might be close enough. On the face of it, sync at the level of each frame around 1/24 to 1/30th of a second is not nearly close enough for acoustic phase synchronization by an couple orders of magnitude, however if the separate clocks are accurate enough to stay sufficiently in sync between those force-sync points (which they should), it might work out fine.
Manually syncing two R-09s back in the day (which I can only imagine used far less accurate clocks) I could get away with at least 15-20 mins of sufficiently accurate synchronization, sometimes an hour or more - although I had a bit more leeway as I wasn't splitting coincident phase-critical pairs between separate recorders. Maintaing phase-accurate sync between 1/24-1/30th of a second sync points isn't a big ask.
^
If so it may be that timecode sync'd clocks can retain sync sufficient for phase-accurate audio over the the entire recording, but the alignment of the files may need to be nudged into sync at the start (within that single frame 1/24-1/30th of a second increment), and maybe again after a file-split.
This needs some bench testing.
-
Funny you guys are discussing this.
Last week was the 2nd time in a row that a F6 multitrack and an F3 audience recording did NOT drift apart after lining up them at the start using snare hits. I did not use the timecode feature (I don’t think the F3 has it).
Back in October I was running multitrack with the F6 (using all 6 channels) when they added a last minute instrument so I hastily used my F2 mono recorder to capture it and to my surprise that also remained in sync after getting it initially lined up in Reaper.
I BELIEVE I have one instance where I ran my F6 and F3 and iirc they did NOT stay in sync. I did not check this one closely, I only added the F3 audience recording into the mix just to quickly confirm that the ambience mic sounded better in the overall multitrack mix (it did). I quickly scrolled to the end of the show and remember hearing that they were grossly out of sync.
I remember reading about random occasions where completely separate recorders would stay in sync so I wasn’t completely surprised. I’d love to know how often this will happen with Zoom recorders, I’ll TRY to get some bench tests going but I’m behind on multiple projects as well as some cable building that needs finishing (just learned to solder).
-
The deck is stacked in your favor. It's more likely to happen with more modern machines using more accurate clocks, but also more likely to happen when the separate recorders were made by the same manufacturer, particularly recorders in the same category (F series), as they are likely to use the identical clock component in both machines.
Also, there is significant leeway in how close sync needs to be for an ambience mic or pair, and somewhat more for a wide spaced pair, than there is for a near-spaced pair or especially a coincident pair where much smaller phase differences can be problematic.
-
I've run the f8n pro for 3 gigs now, and just had a failure. I suspect it was something to do with my Sony-L series battery connected via hirose, but I also had lithium AA batteries inside the unit in case there was any issue. I got most of the set I was recording, but missed the last 3 songs. I'm a little annoyed because I'm not sure where the failure point was - if there was an issue with the external battery, the AAs should have carried things just fine, and both the external battery and internal have plenty of charge.
I was running 4 mics phantom and line-in on 2 channels. I'm mostly just sharing frustration. The f6 has been rock-solid so having an issue with this during my first week with it is pretty frustrating.
-
Bummer. I suspect the internal lithium AA's get discharged somewhat even when an external battery is in use. I use fresh ones in combination with a Talentcell external at multi-day festivals as backup / UPS and to allow Tallentcell swapping if necessary (a holdover from DVD battery days, I don't think I've ever needed to hot-swap the big Talentcells). I don't intentionally use the internal batteries, but may occasionally do so when listening back and not really paying close attention to the external. At some point following a fest I'll notice that the internals have run down completely. The Talencell is reliable and I frequently rely on it alone for non-festival recording, so I typically don't end up changing the internals until the next fest. So.. very non-rigorous test, but the internals seem to run down at some point regardless.
I do notice that the external supply voltage indicated on the F8 screen drops over time somewhat as the Talentcell is depleted. Not sure the Talentcell discharge curve or how a steady its voltage regulator. It could be that there is some threshold voltage under which the recorder begins to draw some current from the internals along with the external.
Lots of speculation on my part, but possibly helpful.
-
It's not the same unit, but I can confirm that the internal AA's on my F6 definitely drain when it's turned off.
-
Ahhh, that very well could be it! Didn't think of that. I might start popping the AA tray out between recording sessions to see if that counters the discharging.
..unless it keeps the date and clock battery from running down.
-
Ahhh, that very well could be it! Didn't think of that. I might start popping the AA tray out between recording sessions to see if that counters the discharging.
..unless it keeps the date and clock battery from running down.
Again, not owning an F8, but speaking for the F6:
The internal AA's do not prevent the time of day battery from discharging, nor do the L-Mount batteries. You need to have it on USB power for a significant amount of time to charge the clock battery. I recall reading a post from Zoom tech support somewhere that stated this
-
I'm 99% certain my problem has to do with the barrel plug on my external battery adapter coming loose/being unreliable. The F8n pro has a setting to shut down if the voltage dips to 8 volts.
That said, the internal batteries have plenty of charge so it SHOULD have switched to the internals. The other possibility is someone messed with my recorder, but I think that's unlikely. I was not monitoring it though. In any event, it appears to be a controlled power down, because the last file was less than the 2 gigabyte file limit and not corrupted.
The sound engineer last night let me plug in to DC last night so that was one less thing to worry about.
-
Looks useful...
Call me when it gets down to $700. >:D
-
Looks useful...
Call me when it gets down to $700. >:D
They were $744 in October.