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Offline alpine85

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Best shotgun configurations?
« on: July 15, 2012, 10:11:57 PM »
Hey all - I'm taping a show at a large outdoor shed this week (which I rarely do),  so I was thinking about dusting off the shotgun caps. 

These are the AKG CK-8 capsules.  Technically, they are called "short-shotgun hypercardioid" caps in the AKG literature, so I was wondering if X/Y 90 degrees would work, with a pair of flanking split omnis.    I just picked up the guns a few months ago and haven't had a chance to use them in the field yet.  I did set them up that way (just the shotguns X/Y, no omnis) in my living room the other day to run some tests, and they sounded pretty nice monitoring through headphones. 

I found some CK-8 shows on the Archive, but most of them don't have much info on the configs, other than a few "PAS".      What patterns have you guys used?  What has worked, and what hasn't?

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2012, 11:28:12 PM »
Disclamer- I've never used 'em, but I'd run shotguns PAS regardless of any other mics since most interference tube mics get wonky off-axis.  X/Y is a good choice if mixing with spit omnis.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 11:31:04 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline The Other Chris

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2012, 12:27:08 AM »
PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.
 

Offline alpine85

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2012, 12:39:56 AM »
PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.

Yes. PAS = pointed at stacks

A couple other things I'm wondering about, with the CK8 capsule specifically (or maybe it applies to other short shotgun caps too, I don't know):

1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2012, 02:37:32 AM »
1) capsule is at the body end of the tube.  Longer tube leverages the shotgun pattern filtering to a lower frequency
2) not supposed to matter
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 09:21:03 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2012, 06:14:47 AM »
1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

The capsule is at the back end of the interference tube - but there will be some slots behind the capsule for rear-entry.

The MKH 416 actually has the capsule half way down - the slots continue for cosmetic purposes.

With the CK8 it's pretty obvious as it's an interference tube bolted on the front of a standard capsule - so the diaphragm will be at the point where the interference tube attaches to the capsule - the slots on the back end are the rear entry slots.





2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?

It doesn't matter which way the vent points.

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2012, 07:05:16 AM »
PAS=Point At Stacks?  I'm an idiot.

Yes. PAS = pointed at stacks

A couple other things I'm wondering about, with the CK8 capsule specifically (or maybe it applies to other short shotgun caps too, I don't know):

1)  Where is the actual diaphragm in the shotgun cap?  I'm assuming it's at the end that attaches to the mic body, where the vents go all the way around the capsule (and it basically looks just like a ck61 or ck63)... correct?

2) on the "interference tube" part, there's a narrow vent - maybe 1/4" wide - all the way from end to end.  What direction should this vent be facing? Up? Down? To the inside?  Outside?  In my test run, I think I pointed them to the outside (to the R for R channel, to the L for L channel), and it seemed to work OK.   Does it matter?

I've always wondered about that vent also - (I refer to it as a "slit" to avoid confusion with the other vents)
The Nak guns have this also - but its more like a millimeter wide.
I try to make the slits symmetrical if nothing else.

People have always had theories about "just inside the stack" or "just outside the stack" - I prefer to point them right at the meat...PAS (I always thought that was "Point And Shoot" taking the camera reference to mic named after a gun)
I would be going for the highest on/off axis ratio...its that off axis stuff that makes guns sound swishy or paper towel tubey.

I dont think any of our traditional patterns will work with these. If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

I think running them in a nice "V" shape is the way - I wouldn't get too close - as you'll end up having to angle your mics too much to make the PAS angle.

Even with a small 6 inch T-bar, the tip of the mics will be almost 12 inches apart...and the caps 8 inches -I think that gives a nice fat NOS sound.

Offline DiggerinVA

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2012, 07:14:39 AM »
PAS is what I found back in the big barn days. The other note is keep them level. if possible. Or at least parallel  to the ground in sheds.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2012, 09:24:55 AM »
If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

Cross at caps.
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runonce

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2012, 09:29:52 AM »
If you ran XY - where would they intersect, at the tip or the cap...?

Cross at caps.

That's what I would think also...but I just can see how a 45 degree angle is going to be good for a shotgun...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 10:15:21 AM by runonce »

Offline DigiGal

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2012, 09:38:48 AM »
When I use a shotgun mic, I only use a single shotgun as the mid mic and use figure-8 for a side mic to record mid-side.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2012, 11:12:50 AM »
I own and have used in many different situations a pair of CK-8s.
Back in the GD days we used to point them at the insides of the stacks, closest to the high frequency drivers, not the bass stacks. My feeling about this in todays world is that most sound companies now use line arrays; which is what the GD pioneered (in a lrge stage context) back in the 80's with Meyer Sound Labs speakers and "sensing" amplifiers (alongside of SIM); therefore I think pointing at teh stacks is important in order to reduce the "papertowel tube" sound.
If you are going to cross them, do it at the caps; you will have to make sure your mic bar can handle the spread, especially if you are going to mix omnis to the outside of the CK8s.
The person who pointed out keeping them parallel to the ground, which does seem to be important. Also, keeping them lower than say, 10 feet up. If the audience will tend toward polite/quiet I prefer head level (6-6.5 feet) up, parallel to ground, pointed at stacks.
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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2012, 01:19:39 PM »
I've had Nak guns, Senn ME66's and now I have CK8's.  I've tried a few different variants on the "Point at Stack" theme... wider than that, right at them, a bit inside.  I've kind of ended up with "right at them" but, I'm not sure that's the right answer.   If you wanted to run them XY, you could do that with the mics crossing at the caps.  I wouldn't run them 90* XY, I would run them crossed PAS.  The included angle is whatever it happens to be based on the location.

I never much thought about the height or level issue... and I probably should have.  Quick story... A few years ago we were at this festival, and it had rain on/off, so we had umbrellas.  But Seth's Nak guns stuck way out from under the umbrella.  I told him "point them down just a few degrees, that way if any water soaks through the windscreens it will run out towards the end of the tube, not back towards the capsule."  It kinda made sense, so that's what he did, and it was perhaps the best pull of the weekend.  http://archive.org/details/um2008-08-09.nak300_guns
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cashandkerouac

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2012, 01:48:43 PM »
i recently acquired some CK8 caps and used them for the 1st time a couple of weeks ago.  it was at the Fillmore in SF, i was in the back of the room and WAY left of center (horrible taping location slightly left of the left stack... really really bad spot).  the guns were spaced at about 2 feet apart and i pointed them toward the inside of the stacks.  my stand was about 7 feet and i kept the CK8s level with the floor.  i was very surprised at how good this recording sounds.  for a back of room situation the CK8s performed like a champ.     

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2012, 04:55:31 PM »
I've had Nak guns, Senn ME66's and now I have CK8's.  I've tried a few different variants on the "Point at Stack" theme... wider than that, right at them, a bit inside.  I've kind of ended up with "right at them" but, I'm not sure that's the right answer.   If you wanted to run them XY, you could do that with the mics crossing at the caps.  I wouldn't run them 90* XY, I would run them crossed PAS.  The included angle is whatever it happens to be based on the location.

I never much thought about the height or level issue... and I probably should have.  Quick story... A few years ago we were at this festival, and it had rain on/off, so we had umbrellas.  But Seth's Nak guns stuck way out from under the umbrella.  I told him "point them down just a few degrees, that way if any water soaks through the windscreens it will run out towards the end of the tube, not back towards the capsule."  It kinda made sense, so that's what he did, and it was perhaps the best pull of the weekend.  http://archive.org/details/um2008-08-09.nak300_guns

Similar NAKs in the rain story - Grateful Dead 1990 RFK show torrential rain and lightning - OTS - and I patched into the ONLY guy with no umbrella...I remember watching the rain dripping from the windscreens...but, fortunately the guy who patched me was hardcore and not pulling out!!! I think he mentioned he was a NAK dealer...If that was any of you...THANKS! :P  At the end of the show the OTS looked like an island in a sea of mud...and it was.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2012, 04:57:51 PM »
Beats a dry SBD  :P
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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2012, 08:18:28 PM »
I have AKG C568EB guns.  Just ran them two weeks ago at Alpine Valley for Phish.  PAS and straight out.  I have the vents pointed out, so I get better soundstage.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 11:52:24 PM »
"Shotgun" is a type of microphone construction, not a pickup pattern. In the midrange and the lower end, shotguns are just ordinary directional microphones, often supercardioid-ish (manufacturers often fail to distinguish accurately between super- and hypercardioid). Only in the high-frequency range does the pickup pattern of a shotgun mike get narrower, starting typically at 2 - 4 kHz depending on the interference tube's length.

But the interference tube principle is primitive and brute-force, so this narrowing occurs in a jagged, irregular way. Published polar diagrams generally have spot frequencies an octave apart, which barely begin to show the true extent of this irregularity. At any given off-axis angle of sound arrival, the high-frequency response of the microphone can be wildly different from, say, its response just 10° to 15° from that same angle. I'm talking response peaks and dips of 8 - 10 - 12 dB--and that distorted sound mixes in with your main pickup, and can never be separated back out again. The degree of this jaggedness is one of the big things that separates $3000 shotguns from $300 shotguns, but they all have some; it's inescapable, given how they work.

For this reason, when using a shotgun mike it is imperative that the desired program material be kept strictly on axis. It has to be close enough to the sound source, and pointed accurately enough, to keep any direct OR reflected program material within the "sweet spot" in front of the interference tube. Otherwise you get varying amounts and kinds of sound cancellation at high frequencies. Boom operators on film and video sets go to enormous effort and trouble to get this right. The interference tube damps the high frequencies of diffuse, environmental sound, but it can't increase the proportion of direct sound to reflected sound in a linear way. A shotgun mike is NOT suitable for use in a reverberant environment where reflections of the intended material will reach the sides, top, bottom and rear of the microphone to any appreciable extent.

All the formulas for figuring out a good geometry for a two-mike stereo pickup assume that the microphone's directional pattern is the same at all frequencies. And you can't set up a pair of microphones with one distance and angle for the low and mid frequencies, but a different distance and angle for the highs. For a pair of shotgun microphones, no one angle can possibly exist that would be right for the whole audio frequency range; whatever you choose will be wrong in an appreciable part of the range.

As a result, using a pair of shotgun microphones for stereo pickup in an enclosed space, where you're not pretty much right on top of the sound sources, is a fundamentally flawed approach. Your odds of getting a good-sounding recording would be much better if you used microphones with a more consistent directional pattern across the frequency range--even though the diffuse sound pickup at high frequencies would be greater that way.

Professional engineers can't always put mikes where we want, but even when we have to mike from farther away than we prefer, we don't generally make stereo recordings with a pair of shotgun microphones. We might put up some number of them, say, to cover specific parts of a theater stage--but that's spot miking; it's not the main/master stereo pair. The signals from those spot mikes are mixed in to some appropriate overall stereo pair on an "as needed" basis. As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--she knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

--best regards

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check--listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around, and you may well find that the rotational angle makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 01:33:19 PM by DSatz »
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Offline acidjack

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2012, 11:13:58 AM »

NO professional engineer would ever make a stereo recording with a pair of coincident or closely-spaced shotgun microphones. They might put up some number of them to cover specific parts of a stage--but that's for spot miking, not the main/master stereo pair. (The signals from those spot mikes would be mixed in on an "as needed" basis to some appropriate overall stereo pair.) As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--I get the sense that she generally knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

--best regards

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check your own shotguns--just listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around--and you may well find that it makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.
Just for fun, I went and looked up the Schoeps CMIT 5U after reading your as-usual informative post.  I also realize that in the taping world, shotguns peaked in popularity with other manufacturers, in particular Nakamichi, who didn't make a hyper/supercardiod

The Schoeps MK41 is a supercardiod, of course, and it has a generally full and even frequency response across most of the range.  I note that Schoeps' own literature says its response in the midrange is similar to a short shotgun.

Would it be a fair statement that for the type of distance miking, usually in stereo pairs or in M/S configurations, that we are talking about here, that the MK41 is what Schoeps would consider a comparable (or superior) choice to some of the shotguns that people use for the same purpose? 
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Offline alpine85

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2012, 01:29:03 PM »
Thanks for all the input, guys.  Lots of good info here.

I have AKG C568EB guns.  Just ran them two weeks ago at Alpine Valley for Phish.  PAS and straight out.  I have the vents pointed out, so I get better soundstage.

Not sure what you mean by "straight out" exactly... you mean like parallel to the ground? What spacing did you use between caps?   

All the formulas for figuring out a useful geometry for a two-mike setup are based on the premise that the microphone's directionality is more or less constant across the frequency range--but violating that assumption is exactly what shotguns are all about.

NO professional engineer would ever make a stereo recording with a pair of coincident or closely-spaced shotgun microphones. They might put up some number of them to cover specific parts of a stage--but that's for spot miking, not the main/master stereo pair. (The signals from those spot mikes would be mixed in on an "as needed" basis to some appropriate overall stereo pair.) As an alternative, please consider what DigiGal posted a few messages up from here--I get the sense that she generally knows whereof she speaks. If you have a shotgun mike whose sound quality you like, pair it up with a good figure-8 for a mid-side stereo recording.

Wouldn't the center shotgun be almost the opposite of the PAS rationale for PA recording (the highly directional shotgun would be pointed to neither of the sound sources, and would pick up mostly indirect sound)?

I guess my reasoning for X/Y is that it seems like a "lowest common denominator" config... no spacing issues to complicate things, and since it has such a narrow polar pattern it makes sense to have the stereo information be directional rather than time-based. 

Especially since it will be mixed with the spaced omnis.  I listened to a few of the old GD shows made with the guns and the single omni - many of them were labeled "XY".  I thought most of them sounded really nice, but I'm thinking the split omnis might add some spaciousness that those were lacking. 

P.S.: To answer a question that was asked earlier in the thread: There are many shotgun microphones, including expensive models from famous manufacturers, that sound different (especially at high frequencies) depending on how they're rotated along their long axis. For such microphones the manufacturer's logo or trade mark should be treated as a "this side up" indicator. John Willett is right in an abstract, Platonic sense that this "shouldn't" make a difference, but do check your own shotguns--just listen to your own voice from off to the side as you roll the mike around--and you may well find that it makes a considerable difference to the pickup quality.


Thanks!  That's funny...  When I hooked up the gun caps for the first time, I noticed the logo on top and it just looked right.  (I can't remember which way the vent was facing though!).  But then I decided I wanted symmetry and pointed them outward like spyder9  ;D
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Offline alpine85

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2012, 11:58:10 PM »
Some samples from my first outing with the 'guns:

MP3 (256kbps 48/16):
https://rapidshare.com/files/116423155/sample1omni.mp3
https://rapidshare.com/files/608194378/sample2guns.mp3

WAV (48kHz, 16-bit) :
https://rapidshare.com/files/3707753242/sample1omni.wav
https://rapidshare.com/files/2950276050/sample2guns.wav

It's a 5-minute section of the Blues Traveler set, from the former Ford Amphitheater in  Tampa  (I refuse to call it "1-800-ASK-GARY", but I suppose I'll have to when I post to LMA... sigh).  As you can tell from the samples - especially the omnis - it's a big concrete and metal shed.  The omni source will need some bass rolloff, but I'm thinking a mix of maybe 2/3 shotguns and 1/3 omnis might sound decent. 

Would love to hear what you all think. 

Oh - sources are  CK-22>JW452>GAKcables>Oade R-44 and CK-8>JW460>Mogami cables>Oade R-44









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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2012, 10:47:02 AM »
I just had a situation over the weekend where a shotgun mic might have saved me. I was FOB but it was 100ft away albeit 20ft up on a platform. The 'din of the crowd' is almost equal to the band on my recording using Core Sound Cardioids. This festival is only once a year, all other times I tape this band I usually walk away with a really good FOB recording. So given the infrequency of use, I don't want to spend alot of money. But wouldn't mind something in the sub-$300 range.

What do people recommend for that distance and (hopefully) in that price range?

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 09:56:51 AM »
Wanted to give this a quick bump.

runonce

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 12:04:10 PM »
Wanted to give this a quick bump.

when you're that far back - it becomes a very diffused sound field...I dont think a shotgun is going to be much better...possibly worse.

Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 02:36:44 PM »

when you're that far back - it becomes a very diffused sound field...I dont think a shotgun is going to be much better...possibly worse.


Thanks. Why would this be worse? Is there a better alternative?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 03:38:33 PM »
Diffuse basically means the sound level arriving from all directions is more or less the same, with no significant bias for any of the sound arriving directly from the source you are interested in before interacting with the rest of the environment.   Shotguns are designed to emphasize the sound arriving on-axis and usually have a much less well behaved response to sounds arriving off-axis than other directional mics.  If you are so far back that almost all of the arriving sound is diffuse, then the direct sound is minimal to start with and the problematic off-axis behaviour of the shotgun probably outweighs the benefits of it's higher directivity.

If you are up on a 20' high platform and the crowd noise is still too much compared to the level of the music, no particular microphone directivity is going to help improve that much.  The only good answer is to increase the ratio of music to crowd noise, usually by moving closer to the source, or by matrixing your recording made at that location with a sound board feed which would provide direct sound without crowd noise.   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 03:42:07 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline StarkRavingCalm

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 03:55:04 PM »
Ok, got it.

I had access to a SBD feed but didn't have the right connector.
So instead of trying to work a shotgun config, next year I will need to bring more connectors and maybe get a second machine closer with my standard mics.
Just be a little more work matrixing them in post

Anyone willing to give me some advise (offline, so as not to clog the thread) on trying to clean up my current file?



Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Best shotgun configurations?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 04:19:50 PM »
If you can get a SBD feed, that will make the effort of getting closer far less necessary, while allowing you to keep a couple benefits of recoring from the platform: the assumed ease and safety of recording from that location and a more diffuse crowd sound from 20' up, without the contribution of individual loud local yahoos close to the mics.  Of course I don't know all the details, and moving farther forward may still be a good idea.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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