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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2021, 06:01:08 PM »
I made multitrack recordings and a live broadcast mix at an outdoor show yesterday, and tried a pair of KMR81's on the stage pointing out at the crowd, apparently a pretty common approach but one I'd never tried.  I'd call the result instantly recognizable, and funny too what specific bits of conversations they pull out of the crowd in between songs.   Jury out on this until I listen more. 

I also had a dual mid-side pair out at front of house going to a portable recorder, haven't integrated those yet. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2021, 08:54:35 PM »
Were they wide spaced like I've commonly seen them used for that?  If so did you perceive any hole in the middle of the audience stuff in the mix with them hard panned, or soft-panned to make it less extreme?  I ask because I love wide spaced omni audience and ambience, yet I find I sometimes find I want to softpan my near-spaced rear-facing supercards that are picking up more precise rear arriving cues to achieve more of a smooth fill across the whole soundstage.

The thing I've always wondered about interference tube mics onstage facing out at the audience is the sound contribution of the stuff they are attempting to reject - the loud stuff on stage to the sides and behind, and PA above or to the sides.  How much does off-axis misbehavior poison the well?  KMR81's are likely better than many other options in that regard, yet still no champ  in terms of off-axis smoothness.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2021, 08:25:17 AM »
They were wide as possible, there were stone pillars supporting a roof, and I had the pillars between the mics and the mains which were outside of the roof on the ground.

When I solo’d the kmr81’s they were reasonably smooth. I had the hpf on and another sweepable hpf in the console to knock down the huge woofy bass you’d expect from being near and slightly behind the mains. Stage volume was not high.  They were hard panned in the mix. With the band playing, I only really got a slight sense of ambience added with them all the way up, no hole, but applause at endings was two hard panned pockets, no middle at all. 

It’ll be interesting to hear how they integrate with the FOH DMS capture when I get that imported.  Being outside with a total lack of room reflections I expect they’ll all live relatively low in the mix.  We’re usually in a very reverberant small theater with a rear of room center NOS-ish pair and an opposing sidewall boundary pair and those live pretty low. The outdoor probably will run higher in comparison. 

In this kind of multitrack / live mix scenario my biggest personal ? is how close did I get in the live mix. The goal is to try and minimize the need for post-production for the producer, and this one was extremely difficult to hear clearly in the moment. I was as far behind the structure as possible but the bass bleed was still enough that I couldn’t really tell where kick drum and bass were in the mix.


Here’s the usual show location, we don’t often have drums there:

https://youtu.be/yrIryQ0FH0s?t=5323

and the one in question:

« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 09:42:49 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2021, 10:00:43 AM »
^Nice looking venue.  Kudos to you on getting the live mix dialed in to the extent you could, that's a tough cookie.  I've struggled getting a decent live mix of my mics alone for patching out to other folks, and even at a multi-day things where I've had the ability to dial in a decent rough mix after the conclusion of the first day for patching out on following days, when listening to that rough-guess mix later its almost never really where I'd really like it to be.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline opsopcopolis

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2021, 11:08:50 AM »
Ive always thought super wide shotguns were an interesting choice for ambiance. I think I generally prefer a less directional sound for my ambient mics in a live multi. Iirc Pearl Jam uses in the neighborhood of 8-10 shotguns on stage and at FOH to get their ambient signal and I think it generally sounds pretty good (tough to capture that arena energy without tons of bleed)

Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2021, 01:01:17 PM »
It won't be my first, second, or third choice as only option!  Glad I got a chance to try it, and an outdoor show like this seemed the best place to experiment.  They'll be useful mixed with the dual mid-side at FOH. 

I can imagine having a half dozen or more would start to make a lot more sense if trying to build an artificial 'telephoto' hyperrealistic up close crowd ambience. 

That stage is in a county park, and this was a local arts council event.  I'd guess we had 2-300 on the hillside, kinda hard to tell.  No idea what it's normally like. 

I usually get an input list several days in advance and am involved in planning the console layouts and mic selections, so I'm able to preset the  broadcast mix console in advance, best guesses on channel EQ, dynamics, etc.  That helps a lot.   About 50% of the inputs are regular house band so they are predictable. 

I have a Wohler broadcast speaker panel which is more ' old car radio / laptop' response range that lives at a preset volume, and a set of full range speakers on a fader so I can change the perspective pretty quickly.  Most gets done on headphones though due to high environmental noise and stage bleed. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 09:12:12 AM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2021, 09:39:56 PM »
The shotguns are indeed useful mixed with the MS from FOH. The binaural effect of wide spacing and hard panning does make for an enveloping ambience.  Not sure if I'd necessarily go out of my way for it, but if it's easy to set up it's useful.

Anyway that's pretty different from what most people here would do with them.  The times I put them in larger audience mic arrays for additional pin-point clarity were all good.   If a room is super reverberant or boomy, they can help focus the result, albeit possibly imperfectly.....in an imperfect situation. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 05:20:33 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
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Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2021, 02:21:45 PM »
If it's an easy venue, I'll run my AKG 568 shotguns alongside hypers just to get a different flavor. Sometimes the shotguns sound better than the hypers.

Examples:

North Mississippi Allstars Live at Terminal West on 2020-01-25
https://archive.org/details/nma2020-01-25.davidpuddy.akg568

Jimmy Herring and The 5 of 7 Live at Variety Playhouse on 2019-11-20
https://archive.org/details/jhiw2019-11-20.DavidPuddy

Billy Strings Live at Cat's Cradle on 2019-11-01
https://archive.org/details/billystrings2019-11-01.akg568

They're not right for all situations, but the results are very usable.

Offline CorFit Chris

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2021, 10:57:56 AM »
If it's an easy venue, I'll run my AKG 568 shotguns alongside hypers just to get a different flavor. Sometimes the shotguns sound better than the hypers.

Examples:

North Mississippi Allstars Live at Terminal West on 2020-01-25
https://archive.org/details/nma2020-01-25.davidpuddy.akg568

Jimmy Herring and The 5 of 7 Live at Variety Playhouse on 2019-11-20
https://archive.org/details/jhiw2019-11-20.DavidPuddy

Billy Strings Live at Cat's Cradle on 2019-11-01
https://archive.org/details/billystrings2019-11-01.akg568

They're not right for all situations, but the results are very usable.

This is what I have started doing as well, especially in "boomy" rooms.  Really like the results.  The 568's have pretty full sound for a shotgun.  Mix with ck63's DinA or PAS.  Also noticeable reduction of crowd chatter.
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Offline JiB97

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2021, 12:33:06 AM »
i was hesitant before buying some ck8s but I am glad I did as I run them in pretty much any situation you can run hypers in including both indoors and outdoors. Not sure why there seems to be an aversion to them in our community as I have heard many good older tapes made with Nak cp4s. I think you can really gain a lot with a pair of short shotties mixed with a single omni or spaced a-b omni pair when taping outdoors as it gets the best of both worlds, imo.

But then again, take all that with a grain of salt as I am not technically knowledgeable in the slightest and I am sure there are good reasons that folks don't run shotties (short or long) for taping.
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Offline DSatz

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2021, 09:28:53 PM »
The reason for the aversion is that shotgun mikes have relatively poor sound quality off axis--uneven response, sometimes extremely uneven, with peaks and dips of 10 dB or so depending on the angle. Shotgun mikes are meant to help distinguish DIRECTLY on-axis sound sources from qualitatively different, environmental sound--not from reflections of the original sound. If you're recording indoors from any distance, the same sound reaches the mikes from all angles at once, and much of the desired sound will arrive off-axis. When it mixes with the on-axis sound, it degrades the quality of the pickup.

The other problem (for stereo recording) is that shotgun mikes have a narrower pickup pattern at high-mid and high frequencies than in the rest of the range. So if you arrange a pair of them in any of the common coincident or closely spaced arrangements, any angle and distance good for the low and mid frequencies can't possibly be optimal for the high frequencies, or vice versa. All the Williams formulas and curves, etc., are based on the assumption of polar patterns that are basically constant across the frequency range. Shotguns fail that requirement by a long, long way--the longer ones being worst of all.

As a result, professionals don't generally use shotgun microphones for stereo recording except for M/S stereo, where a well-placed shotgun can be a good center ("M") mike. Some very nice stereo mikes have been built with a shotgun as the "M" element, or a small figure-8 mike can be mounted directly above the capsule diaphragm of a mono shotgun. But that approach requires the majority of sound pickup to be direct/on axis. And the audience area of a concert venue is generally too far from the sound sources for that to be possible.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 07:38:57 PM by DSatz »
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2021, 10:49:22 PM »
PAS shotguns can pull that maximal on-axis sound out of the muck.  Many times the off-axis in a large club or auditorium is garbage, no matter the pattern, so a shotgun may win the clarity war amongst imperfect options. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2021, 06:39:26 PM »
PAS shotguns can pull that maximal on-axis sound out of the muck.  Many times the off-axis in a large club or auditorium is garbage, no matter the pattern, so a shotgun may win the clarity war amongst imperfect options.

But as a forewarning, some have strong pickup rear, which can be a challenge.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2021, 06:58:24 AM »
Well……everything is omni at some low frequency too. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
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Offline EmRR

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Re: shotgun mics usage
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2021, 09:32:00 AM »
This is in another thread, might as well park it here.  Flew this in a 1000 capacity club once, worked well.  Dual mid-side with optional shotgun mid and a PAS spot.  Pan the PAS spot as angled, it matches the DMS imaging.   Plus AB omni's.  Get some more 'dry' vocals out of the PA stacks off to the side, some more 'dry' stage sound out of the mid.  Both shotguns in the -15-20dB relative to the DMS.  Made a positive difference.   If you wanna go there; 7 channel capture. 


Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50

 

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