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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3  (Read 73633 times)

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Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #270 on: June 21, 2022, 11:04:09 AM »
Angle between stacks was around 65º-ish, but was a quite small venue and guessing It'll be a bit larger at next planned outing. I guess I'm heading towards a PAS perspective.

I panned both channels 20% to center.
Schoeps MK41 x 2, MK22 x 2; Vanguard V1s matched pair; Niaint x8
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #271 on: June 21, 2022, 12:11:55 PM »
Really nice bass response out of the omnis. I use X-Y PAS for the center pair.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #272 on: June 21, 2022, 01:41:16 PM »
I'm very curious to hear from those of you running OMT arrays who have hands-on experience using both X/Y and Mid/Side as center pair regarding differences in substituting one for the other.  Not so much with regards to setup, but rather the impression of any difference in sound, particularly in getting the overall OMT recording sounding the way you want in mixing.

I've not really compared both coincident center pair arrangements sufficiently to confidently conclude from experience that they are as interchangeable in practice as they are in theory.  Complicating things further are differences of implementation using specific microphones, as anecdotally at least some seem to work better in one coincident arrangement verses the other.
kindms and I have done several types of events where we contrasted the mid channels.
First, I would say I am not an expert mid side post process mixer type, usually I set an angle during the rough mixing and stay with it.
I can only speak to these two ideas you ask:
1] As far as sound from differing center mounted X-Y angles, I agree that roughly 60', or PAS is the very best with a center XY pair of cardiods or hypercards. As an aside for center mounting, We tried using an AKG ck8 as a middle mic with no Side companion a few times. That imaging is very focused on the center and more monophonic than using XY or MS.

2] As to any post mixing differences between MS and XY, I found each method, properly deployed, has its' perfect "perspective" in a mix however I would say working with XY is a bit easier to train your ears to hear the middle, or set the middle as a foundation.
Here are two with a 60' XY AKG ck3 hypercardioid in the middle of 2 AKG ck22 omnis split at 4 and then 10 feet:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22

here is an OMT5 where we run Blumlein MS (crossed figure 8's) using the akg c426 plus a ck61 cardioid pair 1 foot from the center pair, 2 feet apart plus a ck22's for the omnis
So that is different from using a Mid card w Side fig8. But, as Gutbucket has demonstrated, crossed fig 8's can be mixed same as MS.
Deep Banana Blackout Capitol Theatre 2019-04-06:
https://archive.org/details/dbb2019-04-06.AKGc426AKGck22AKGck61there are more if anyone wants, I can look to see what is what.

Including One photo from 3-23-2018 and two snaps from 3-24-2018
« Last Edit: June 21, 2022, 07:50:22 PM by rocksuitcase »
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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #273 on: June 21, 2022, 03:52:41 PM »
Love that JGB tape, Rock.

I have to say, I have resorted to pure brute force with the directional mics for OMT: XY cards (PAS), hypers split 2' @ 45 degrees, and short shotguns PAS. I will let you gentlemen deal with the finer points of MS  ;D
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #274 on: June 21, 2022, 06:42:43 PM »
Love that JGB tape, Rock.
Yeah, you put an actual super kind "review" on the LMA post. h/t for that! ;D On day 2, we did figure why the heck not go 10 feet wide. The previous day's Triple bar, 34-36" does not have the same warmth as the uber wide spread.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 10:34:27 AM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #275 on: June 21, 2022, 07:15:37 PM »
Greeks 85 Jim & Doug ran mk2s with a crazy spread, I think it was like 20'.
Schoeps MK41 x 2, MK22 x 2; Vanguard V1s matched pair; Niaint x8
Schoeps kcy5, nbob actives
Naiant PFA 60v, PFA 48v, IPA
Sound Devices MP-6II; Sony PCM-A10

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #276 on: June 21, 2022, 07:59:17 PM »
Thanks for the input and links, Rock!

A few comments-
First, I am not I would say I am not a mid side post process mixer type, usually I set an angle during the rough mixing and stay with it.
I think with the simpler OMT arrangements, once the best ratio is determined, it works for the entire recording.  Determining the best ratio takes a bit of back and forth though.  Good to double check.
(More on complex OMT arrangements and how that changes this for me in a following post)

Quote
1] As far as sound from differing center mounted X-Y angles, I agree that roughly 60', or PAS is the very best with a center XY pair of cardiods or hypercards. as an aside for center mounting, We tried using an AKG ck8 as a middle mic with no Side companion a few times. That imaging is very focused on the center and more monophonic than using XY or MS.

Just what I was hunting for, and confirms my observations.  More on this to follow..

Quote
2] As to any post mixing differences between MS and XY, I found each method, properly deployed, has its' perfect "perspective" in a mix however I would say working with XY is a bit easier to train your ears to hear the middle, or set the middle as a foundation.
Interesting.  Agreed with each capable of finding its perspective in the mix, yet I sort of find the opposite true with regards to hearing and identifying the middle, or setting it.  Not that X/Y isn't super cohesive and solid in it's center, just that it's center is phantom-derived while with Mid/Side the middle is the starting point direct from the Mid mic.  Maybe we are describing subtlety different things.  I do note that when things go wrong with X/Y it is sort of easier to identify what, as it manifests in an unbalanced Left vs Right kind of way.  Whereas when things go wonky with Mid/Side, the problems manifest with the inherent native symmetry of center vs sides which can make them harder to identify.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #277 on: June 21, 2022, 08:00:14 PM »
Angle between stacks was around 65º-ish, but was a quite small venue and guessing It'll be a bit larger at next planned outing. I guess I'm heading towards a PAS perspective.

I panned both channels 20% to center.

That all sounds in order.

For those following along, panning the L/R output of the X/Y pair toward center is another way of modifying the Mid/Side ratio of that pair, increasing the proportion of Mid over Side.  Doing that is somewhat like narrowing the physical X/Y angle in how it effects the sound in playback, yet is also subtly different in two ways:  First, it doesn't change whatever physical X/Y angle the mics were setup with, so any attributes inherent to the microphone's polar patterns at that angle are retained. That includes how aligned each mic of the pair happened to be with the PA on either side (PAS optimizing this), along with the distribution of any off-axis pattern misbehavior the mics might have.  Secondly, the mono sum of the pair (100% Mid component = to both mics panned fully center) has a virtual polar-pattern of its own which is a different shape than that of the physical microphones. That pattern is not as tight as the microphones of the X/Y pair.  It will instead have a shape more like both patterns angled apart by the X/Y angle overlaying each other.  Given that, narrower X/Y angles produce a tighter pattern Mid component, and wider angles a fatter one.  The Mid component of an X/Y pair of narrow angled supercards would plot out as something cardioid-ish in shape.  The Mid component of a pair of cardioids would plot out something subcardioid like.  And an X/Y pair setup with a 180º angle will produce a Mid component that is omnidirectional, regardless of the polar pattern of the actual mics used.

That represents something fundamentally different between X/Y and Mid/Side, not often recognized.  With Mid/Side, the pattern of the Mid component is always the same as that of the Mid mic used.  So 100% Mid from a Mid/Side pair using a supercardioid will have a tighter pattern with less sensitivity to off-axis sound than a mono Mid derived from an X/Y pair.  A narrow X/Y pair of supercards gets closer to that than a wider angle or cardioids, yet is always wider.

This begs the question of what is appropriate.  Is a super tight focused Mid best, or a nice wide-open one?  I think the answer probably depends on what is going on with the rest of the array.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #278 on: June 21, 2022, 08:01:45 PM »
This begs the question of what is appropriate.  Is a super tight focused Mid best, or a nice wide-open one?  I think the answer probably depends on what is going on with the rest of the array.

Thinking this through, potential rambling ahead..

I originally went with Mid/Side for both practical and theoretical reasons.  On the practical front, I came from originally using an omni in the center, and wanted to try using a directional microphone in the center to increase focus on the pickup of direct sound from the stage and PA in that channel and exclusion of sound arriving from other directions (that already being well handled by the wide L/R omnis).  I found that change to be useful and decided I wanted to maximize that as much as possible so I started using a supercardioid instead of a cardioid in that position. The idea being to get that center channel sounding as sounboard-like, as clear and dry as possible. Okay good, but maybe too tight with that center image not blending as smoothly as I'd like with the omnis.. so I add the Side fig-8, figuring I can introduce as much of that as I like, which not only widens the center contribution to blend with the omnis, but does so in a stereophonic way. That worked well, and adding the Side fig-8 didn't require altering the previous base-line configuration of the single center mic - I could just mute the fig-8 to return to that configuration for comparison.   Good so far. 

I speculated about substituting X/Y.. probably best as PAS with M/S readjustment, perhaps even better than M/S in the middle because it's native PAS. Seems to work well.. The questions remains not fully answered.

But I then added the near-spaced supercardioid pair and some new very interesting things happened and options opened up.  In some ways that pair was more up-front and direct sounding, with good presence.  Which leads to the question- should that pair be the primary PAS direct-sound contributor instead of the center? ..in which case, would the center Mid/Side pair then be better using a wider Mid?  ..displaced from its previous primary role of providing "direct clarity" and taking up instead more of a "fill and glue everything together across the middle" type of role?  I don't know the answer to this yet.

Also, I really like the 3-mic supercardioid triplet in the center formed by the addition of the near-spaced pair (fig-8 muted).  It's somewhat sharper and clearer than Mid/Side own its own in the middle.  I feel the center mic needs to remain supercardioid for this combination to work best.  Hmmm.  For a while with both the triplet and M/S center in place I thought I had extra redundancy there, and the answer might end up being either the coincident center or the triplet center.. maybe triplet for playback with a center channel speaker and Mid/Side for 2-ch stereo.  But since then I've found what I like most is first getting things balanced in 2-ch stereo using the triplet, then adding some amount of fig-8 Side as "special sauce".  In that way it has become akin to the rear-facing mics for me.  How much to use varies by recording, by venue, sometimes song by song.  I've considered automating it's level in the mix.  I just know highly I value having both.  At least I've determined the hierarchical importance of each channel addition and know which I'd give up first if necessary verses which I'd keep, which has remained consistent recording to recording, so that keeps me sane.

Could freely adjusting the Mid/Side ratio of a PAS X/Y pair in combination with the addition of the near-spaced pair work in the same "special sauce" kind of way as how I'm using and thinking about the Side channel?  I can certainly see that possibility.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #279 on: June 21, 2022, 08:05:17 PM »
Just want to thank you guys again.  For the ongoing discussions, for trying these things out, for your links and recordings, and for putting up with my ramblings and obsession with this stuff.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #280 on: June 21, 2022, 08:06:37 PM »
Greeks 85 Jim & Doug ran mk2s with a crazy spread, I think it was like 20'.

Great tapes! Speaking of 85, your 4/28 with the KM84s is just fantastic. So great to see the old school GD tapers still pulling heat in 2022!
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #281 on: June 21, 2022, 08:13:04 PM »
Just want to thank you guys again.  For the ongoing discussions, for trying these things out, for your links and recordings, and for putting up with my ramblings and obsession with this stuff.

Thank YOU, gb! So much fantastic info disseminated on these pages.
Mics: AT 3031; AT 853Rx (c, o); Samson C02; Studio Projects C4 (c, o, h); Nak 300/Tascam PE-125/JVC M510 (cp-1, cp-2, cp-3, JVC M510 superdirectional caps)
Recorders: Tascam DR-680 MkII; Tascam DR-70D
Pres: Edirol UA-5 (Oade PMod & WMod); Marantz PMD661 (OCM); Marantz PMD620 (Oade WMod); Naiant MidBox; Shure FP11 (x2)
https://archive.org/details/@fireonshakedwnstreet

Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #282 on: June 21, 2022, 08:16:25 PM »
Greeks 85 Jim & Doug ran mk2s with a crazy spread, I think it was like 20'.

Great tapes! Speaking of 85, your 4/28 with the KM84s is just fantastic. So great to see the old school GD tapers still pulling heat in 2022!
Thanks! So grateful to have this life-long connection to music as a throughline on my path.
FYI, the 84's were x/y PAS on all my recordings 83-2003, when I got an mstc64 and went to ortf.
Schoeps MK41 x 2, MK22 x 2; Vanguard V1s matched pair; Niaint x8
Schoeps kcy5, nbob actives
Naiant PFA 60v, PFA 48v, IPA
Sound Devices MP-6II; Sony PCM-A10

Recordings at LMA

Offline phil_er_up

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #283 on: June 22, 2022, 07:49:31 AM »
I'm very curious to hear from those of you running OMT arrays who have hands-on experience using both X/Y and Mid/Side as center pair regarding differences in substituting one for the other.  Not so much with regards to setup, but rather the impression of any difference in sound, particularly in getting the overall OMT recording sounding the way you want in mixing.

I've not really compared both coincident center pair arrangements sufficiently to confidently conclude from experience that they are as interchangeable in practice as they are in theory.  Complicating things further are differences of implementation using specific microphones, as anecdotally at least some seem to work better in one coincident arrangement verses the other.
kindms and I have done several types of events where we contrasted the mid channels.
First, I would say I am not an expert mid side post process mixer type, usually I set an angle during the rough mixing and stay with it.
I can only speak to these two ideas you ask:
1] As far as sound from differing center mounted X-Y angles, I agree that roughly 60', or PAS is the very best with a center XY pair of cardiods or hypercards. As an aside for center mounting, We tried using an AKG ck8 as a middle mic with no Side companion a few times. That imaging is very focused on the center and more monophonic than using XY or MS.

2] As to any post mixing differences between MS and XY, I found each method, properly deployed, has its' perfect "perspective" in a mix however I would say working with XY is a bit easier to train your ears to hear the middle, or set the middle as a foundation.
Here are two with a 60' XY AKG ck3 hypercardioid in the middle of 2 AKG ck22 omnis split at 4 and then 10 feet:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22

here is an OMT5 where we run Blumlein MS (crossed figure 8's) using the akg c426 plus a ck61 cardioid pair 1 foot from the center pair, 2 feet apart plus a ck22's for the omnis
So that is different from using a Mid card w Side fig8. But, as Gutbucket has demonstrated, crossed fig 8's can be mixed same as MS.
Deep Banana Blackout Capitol Theatre 2019-04-06:
https://archive.org/details/dbb2019-04-06.AKGc426AKGck22AKGck61there are more if anyone wants, I can look to see what is what.

Including One photo from 3-23-2018 and two snaps from 3-24-2018

Recognized Armando SBD man in your photo. Nice rig and thanks for the discussion about this topic. Wish I could run a rig like that at JGB. Great Stuff!
Everyday is a gift. Enjoy each one!
Forward motion bring positive results.

Offline kindms

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 3
« Reply #284 on: June 22, 2022, 09:40:22 AM »
I'm very curious to hear from those of you running OMT arrays who have hands-on experience using both X/Y and Mid/Side as center pair regarding differences in substituting one for the other.  Not so much with regards to setup, but rather the impression of any difference in sound, particularly in getting the overall OMT recording sounding the way you want in mixing.

I've not really compared both coincident center pair arrangements sufficiently to confidently conclude from experience that they are as interchangeable in practice as they are in theory.  Complicating things further are differences of implementation using specific microphones, as anecdotally at least some seem to work better in one coincident arrangement verses the other.
kindms and I have done several types of events where we contrasted the mid channels.
First, I would say I am not an expert mid side post process mixer type, usually I set an angle during the rough mixing and stay with it.
I can only speak to these two ideas you ask:
1] As far as sound from differing center mounted X-Y angles, I agree that roughly 60', or PAS is the very best with a center XY pair of cardiods or hypercards. As an aside for center mounting, We tried using an AKG ck8 as a middle mic with no Side companion a few times. That imaging is very focused on the center and more monophonic than using XY or MS.

2] As to any post mixing differences between MS and XY, I found each method, properly deployed, has its' perfect "perspective" in a mix however I would say working with XY is a bit easier to train your ears to hear the middle, or set the middle as a foundation.
Here are two with a 60' XY AKG ck3 hypercardioid in the middle of 2 AKG ck22 omnis split at 4 and then 10 feet:
https://archive.org/details/jgb2018-03-24.akgck3_ck22
https://archive.org/details/ggw2018-03-23.akgck3_ck22

here is an OMT5 where we run Blumlein MS (crossed figure 8's) using the akg c426 plus a ck61 cardioid pair 1 foot from the center pair, 2 feet apart plus a ck22's for the omnis
So that is different from using a Mid card w Side fig8. But, as Gutbucket has demonstrated, crossed fig 8's can be mixed same as MS.
Deep Banana Blackout Capitol Theatre 2019-04-06:
https://archive.org/details/dbb2019-04-06.AKGc426AKGck22AKGck61there are more if anyone wants, I can look to see what is what.

Including One photo from 3-23-2018 and two snaps from 3-24-2018

Recognized Armando SBD man in your photo. Nice rig and thanks for the discussion about this topic. Wish I could run a rig like that at JGB. Great Stuff!

a good friend runs that festival so we pretty much had the run of the place.

funny Armando put a measurement mic all the way down on the floor at this show. I remember it because it got bumped several times in a high traffic spot. the previous night was Bob Weirs soundman, guy did it by ear for Golden Gate Wingmen. I had to give him props for that. it sounded great
AKG c426, AKG414 XLS/ST, AKG ck61, ck22, >nBob colettes >PFA > V3, SD MixPre >  TCM-Mod Tascam HDP2, Sony M10
Little Bear tube Pre >Outlaw Audio 2200 Monoblocks > VR-2's

 

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