Topic: 1990s taper finally upgrading gear - a few questions about mics, power, stealth

[chiefscribe]

Hi from Rip Van Winkle checking in after a few decades. I used to record on cassette and DAT in the 90s with lower-cost earpiece mics, Sonic Studios, powered with an AA-battery cable. 

Most of my old stuff still works, but now that I am older and wiser and have a little more money than I did when I was a student, I am trying to bring my gear into the new millennium and could use advice. 

I like to record live music ranging from quieter jazz and folk to rock, mostly in venues of 1500-3000 people, and also nature sounds.  For now the priority is stealth recording of music.  Bonus points for gear that would do well with nature sounds as well, though I am prepared to have to get different mic capsules later for nature sounds. 

Hoping to have the gear by the end of this month for use on Labor Day weekend. 

Re: budget, funds are not unlimited but I'd rather know what the best/right options are and then look for cost savings on those items later if needed.  For now, assume that all options are on the table and I'll figure out financing later.   

I have liked the sound of many mics, but am leaning toward either

• Schoeps Colette with MK4 or MK41  (or is Schoeps CCM4 worth considering - ? I have assumed it is better to get the modular system but am open to being persuaded otherwise)

or

• DPAs if I determine that the Schoeps are too difficult to use in stealth situations.

or

• possibly getting both if the DPAs are much easier to stealth but the Schoeps could work for portable semi-stealth situations where taping is not prohibited but I want to be subtle.

My questions are

• how much more difficult is it to stealth-record with Schoeps vs. DPAs?   is the Schoeps CCM4 integrated /non-modular mic worth considering for stealth advantages?   overall I would prefer the modular system but only if it's practical for stealth.

&   

• if I go with Schoeps modular Colette system, I keep changing my mind about MK4s vs. MK41s.  In a quiet situation, I'd probably like the MK4s better, but since I am not tall enough to keep mics above chatty people, I am questioning whether MK41s would be a smarter choice to avoid noise - ?

&

• whether I go with the MK4s or MK41s, or the DPAs, or both, what else do I need for mic power / gain / ADC between that and the recorder?  I have seen mentions of NBobs (now discontinued) and other things but don't know exactly what they are or where and how to get them, despite reading and searching this site for quite a while.  I have zero clue about this part of the equation and need the most basic 101-level lesson. 

&

• I do already own a Roland R-05, which has a stereo mini input.  It works fine and I am in no particular hurry to get rid of it, but I am open to upgrading the recorder if it makes sense to do so.  I think I have only used it with the internal mics - possibly with the old Sonic Studios mics once.  Needless to say I would like to get better mics in use ASAP.  I like how easy the R-05 is to fit in a pocket and disguise as a cell phone, but if there's another recorder that can be used for stealth and would be much better for my needs, I'm all ears. Keep using the R-05 or get something better?

Stealth advice also welcome. 
I don't have a K@ng0l (yet) and only have experience with the 1990s eyeglass-mounted mics for stealth, so if anyone wants to send me a message about headgear stealth methods, I'd appreciate it.  I can imagine the basic principle, but if there are modifications or tools that are helpful, or specific models of hats, I'd love to know.  Even better if any methods can be used with a baseball cap or another more generic hat. 

I did almost get kicked out of a Jerry Garcia Band show one time because I was close to the rail with my earpiece microphones stuck on the logo of my baseball hat with a plastic cone, and one time got asked about the DAT deck in my pants and had to go in a different door, but otherwise have always succeeded in getting my gear in and using it with no security issues. 

I am pretty short, so putting mics on shoulders would probably result in too much muffling of the sound. 


Any help in sorting out what to buy would be very much appreciated.  Would love to get gear ordered ASAP so I don't have to go to yet another show on Labor Day weekend with no good mics. 

[Scooter123]

I was taping since 1970 and went through your exact conundrum a few years ago.  I picked Schoeps, but easily could have gone for Neumann KM 180 or something similar.  But here is how I solved the problem.

First, I downloaded about 50 really good sounding shows off torrent sites or trades.  I actually think it was 100 to make things nice and round.  I made a spread sheet. 

Second, I looked at the microphones and rigs used in my favorite shows.  For me, about 40% of the best sounding shows were either Neumann or Schoeps each.  However, AKG had a decent showing and surprisingly, stupid Coresound and Church mikes made up a small minority. 

Third, I then had conversations with actual tapers over the phone as to why they liked Schoeps and Neuman.  By the way, to your ears, the 40% Schoeps or 40% Neumann could be something else--this is a process, not a conclusion.  You might pick AKG or Sennheiser.  A fellow taper, Josephine, let me borrow her rig for a couple shows, one in an arena and one in a local club, so I could get real results.  The type of mike you pick will depend on the type of shows you will tape.  Small jazz clubs?  A DPA Omni would be nice for close in work.  Large arena shows in front of the stacks?  A DPA would also work well.  Arenas in the center surrounded by crowds?  Go with a card or super card.  That's why I made my decision on 100 shows, of various types and wanted the best overall microphone for those types of shows. 

Finally, I made my decision based on the gear and not the sound.  I actually liked the sound of Neumanns better than Schoeps (clearer more accurate), but that could be handled using EQ in post.  But Schoeps won the contest because there is a whole host of Schoeps tapers out there with nearly identical gear that can be borrowed etc.  Also consider Nick--the man is a genius and developed two preamps especially made for Schoeps--the NBox and the Baby NBox.  It makes the Schoeps rig a little smaller and easier to stealth.

The Schoeps taping crowd has been around since the 1990s using RBox (a predecessor to the NBox) and is a brotherhood of tapers.  I have three NBoxes and two sets of Schoeps mikes, they are a lifetime investment.  While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns.   

Oh, I should add-- the recorder you use is irrelevant.  Anything small with decent battery life is fine.  All it does is store 1s and 0s, and we call them bit boxes.  A regular around here uses a 20 year old Tascam DR2d which is obsolete by all measurements, but fits the bill, he likes the interface, and it works for him.  The DR2d also allows the recording of a second source at the same time, like an ALD or IEM with the necessity of a time synch.  I use a ten year old Sony M10 for VU Meters and battery life. 

Have fun making your decision. 

[jbell]

Check in with Scheopsnbox he can build you actives for Microtech Gefell, Schoeps, Neumann, or AKG caps.  You would save some cash over buying a set of ccm4's.  If you only stealth tape you might want to look into an Nbox or baby Nbox. 

[heathen]

If you're talking about the lavalier size DPAs (4060 or 4061, for example), there's literally nothing easier to stealth with.  Incredible mics.

[morst]

While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns. 

One reason for this might be that Schoeps and Neumanns are very well made (as are DPA) and have excellent and consistent off-axis response.
This even response allows for more flexibility of placement, and can still yield excellent results in compromised locations such as off center, or too far back, in my experience.

[heathen]

While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns.   

Gotta' disagree with you there.  Location is everything, and anyone thinking they can make up for suboptimal location simply by purchasing a certain brand of microphone is setting themselves up for disappointment.

[OhioHead]

OP - if you don’t go the active route, Old in the Way has the new Schoeps CCM-1 (mini) mic body and we taped LOS @ Woodlands his recording is on Archive (not a great room to tape in, sounds good) and new mic body is tiny.

Good luck and welcome back!

[daspyknows]

While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns.   

Gotta' disagree with you there.  Location is everything, and anyone thinking they can make up for suboptimal location simply by purchasing a certain brand of microphone is setting themselves up for disappointment.

I think the point he is making is in a bad location he will be happier with the Schoeps or Neumanns than with other types.  A suboptimal location is just that.  The results will be worse that a prime location regardless of mics used.

[H₂O]

I'd go Schoeps mk22/4/41 > CMC 1 L or CMC 1 K  - Gives you the modularity of the CMC series with almost the size of the CCM (a mm or 2 longer) - plenty of people here use Schoeps Stealth and alot prefer the 4v or 41v (vertical capsule alignment) in these situations as well as the mics can conform better to the shape of the head (as you direction of the mic is side addressed).  So you could go mk4v > CMC 1 K and be pretty low profile.



I prefer the sound the 4 to the 4v but that is me.


Schoeps just came out with the CMC 1 so you should be good to go for some time.


There are many options for pre's/AD's and all in one's that the schoeps CMC's could plug right into.  For example:
https://www.sonosax.ch/product/sx-m2d2/


If you went with CMC 1-L (Lemo) - you could get custom Lemo > mini 3pin XLR's cables made to make that setup small


MK4v > CMC 1-L > M2D2 > iPhone (you would want a dedicated phone that would run in airplane mode IMO - to avoid any issues) - battery life may be an issue as the M2D2 claims 4.5 hours on a single charge but don't know real world timings








The newer DPA's are modular as well but they do not have side addresses caps.

[Gutbucket]

Good morning Mr Van Winkle,

Condensing and summing up a bit on the contributions , with a general overview of options for you.. (much posting here since I started this response a few hours ago, so there is overlap with the above)

Miniature options-
If omnis work for you, DPA 4060 or 4061 is a good choice, mounted on glasses as you are familiar, or placed on either side of your head in a hat. Choose 4060 to get lowest self-noise (best accommodating nature recording and very quiet classical/folk/jazz music) or lower sensitivity 4061 to gain additional headroom for particularly loud music.  You will need a battery box or preamp which provides between 5V-9V to power them correctly, placed ahead of your R-05 should otherwise work nicely.  If you want to consider recording to iphone or other Apple devices, DPA now makes a very compact preamp/ADC that connects directly to iphone used as recorder called the d:vice.  The d:vice is able to power DPA miniature microphones directly from the phone.  There is no option more stealth-able than a pair of miniature DPA 4060 or 4061 > DPA d:vice > iOS device.  Android unfortunately not currently supported. 

4060 work well for nature recording except for super quiet background stuff, and are essentially waterproof.


There are miniature directional mics available, but if you want high-quality directional mics, you will probably be best served with the following modular options-

1) DPA's full line of higher-end (non-miniauture) modular capsule mics can also be used with the d:vice > iOS device, via a special cable with miniature amplifier.  There is no other equivalent modular option as small and compact, but it does require recording to an iOS device rather than a dedicated recorder (Actually this might also work for DPA directional caps into a regular recorder without the d:vice by using the same special cable/amplifier into a preamp providing low voltage 5V-9V powering, but I've not heard of anyone trying this yet).

2) Schoeps, Microtech Gefell, Neumann, or AKG sdc capsules powered via a third party device that replaces the microphone amplifier body - Requires active cable or custom cable connection that fits the capsules and Schoepsnbox's Nbox, or Naiant PFA or Tinybox.  This is the traditional route to compact directional mic stealth rigs at Taper Section, which many here have experience with.

3) Schoeps CCM has effectively been superseded by recent developments that end up being about the same size - both Schoeps's and DPA's primary lines of interchangeable-capsule microphones are now available with very compact phantom powered amplifiers about the size of an XLR plug.   Current Sennheiser is not modular but much more compact than previous Senn SDCs.  If using a recorder that does not provide phantom power to the microphones (such as your R05), you'll need to power the mics using a phantom power box or preamp that provides phantom ahead of the recorder.


Sonosax M2D2 is a high quality preamp /ADC that provides both phantom power and low voltage and can feed analog input recorders or digital USB host device such as a phone.  In that way it is similar to d:vice but is larger and more fully featured.  Compact and top quality but not miniature.

Edit- as H2O mentions, if you want compact modular sdc side-address, that points to Schoeps

[chiefscribe]

Thank you all for the helpful info.  VERY much appreciated.  A few more questions below .

>>>> the recorder you use is irrelevant.  Anything small with decent battery life is fine.  All it does is store 1s and 0s, and we call them bit boxes. >>>>

Right, the 1s and 0s are the same, but some of the bit buckets have phantom power, and some have blindingly bright LED displays, and some fit down my pants more easily.  I like that the R-05 is the size of a deck of cards and doesn't scream "PROFESSIONAL AUDIO EQUIPMENT!" at first glance, but if a different recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power would allow me not to have to have cables re-terminated etc., I could keep the R-05 for situations where more stealth is needed and get something with XLR and phantom power for when I can get better gear into the venue. 

>>> Check in with Schoepsnbox he can build you actives for Microtech Gefell, Schoeps, Neumann, or AKG caps.  You would save some cash over buying a set of ccm4's.  If you only stealth tape you might want to look into an Nbox or baby Nbox.  >>>>

Oh, are Nbox inline devices still available? I keep seeing that they are discontinued, and so are littleboxes and tinyboxes and PFAs from Naiant, so I was at a loss as to whether anyone is still making active cables or inline devices.  Hope so.  Yes, I pretty much only do stealth recording, even when open taping is an option, because I tend to go to shows with non-tapers who don't want their whole concert experience to revolve around me and my gear.  If schoepsnbox and/or Naiant are still making solutions that would let me use Schoeps caps with my recorder, that would be fantastic. 

>>>>> I'd go Schoeps mk22/4/41 > CMC 1 L or CMC 1 K  - Gives you the modularity of the CMC series with almost the size of the CCM (a mm or 2 longer) - plenty of people here use Schoeps Stealth and alot prefer the 4v or 41v (vertical capsule alignment) in these situations as well as the mics can conform better to the shape of the head (as you direction of the mic is side addressed).  So you could go mk4v > CMC 1 K and be pretty low profile.
>>>>

This is what I was leaning toward - Schoeps MK4 or MK41 with the new CMC1.  https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/microphone-amplifiers/cmc-1-l.html Wasn't sure about the cable options - is there any advantage to having the cable permanently affixed (K) vs. separate (L)?  In general I'd rather keep the flexibility of separate components unless it saves a lot of space, but I welcome advice if I'm missing something important. 

>>>>
There are many options for pre's/AD's and all in one's that the schoeps CMC's could plug right into.  For example:
https://www.sonosax.ch/product/sx-m2d2/
>>>>

Good to know there are options. Any others to consider besides Sonosax? 

>>>>
If you went with CMC 1-L (Lemo) - you could get custom Lemo > mini 3pin XLR's cables made to make that setup small
>>>>

This is what I most need advice on, the in-between stuff between the mics and the recorder. Best space-efficient/stealth-able power and cables is what is most puzzling me.  I keep finding recommendations on custom cables and inline devices... and then later seeing a post that they are discontinued or the vendor has retired or something.  So I am puzzled about what actually is available now.  Are there reliable sources of active cables, custom-terminated cables, and inline devices who are in the biz now?  Hope so. 

>>> The newer DPA's are modular as well but they do not have side addresses caps. >>>

Forgive my cluelessness but I don't know what "side addresses caps" / "sdc side-address" means - ? 


Based on your advice and other things I've read, this is what I am considering right now - please tell me if I'm making any huge mistakes.

Plan A, quality rig to use when security is less tight

• Schoeps Colette capsules MK4 or MK41, probably MK4 >
• CMC 1 amp (L with LEMO connector? or K with integrated cable?) >
• some kind of preamp (Sonosax M2D2 or is there a better option?  will all of this gear fit in my pants?) >
• recorder (do I need to upgrade to one with XLR and phantom power?  I saw a used Tascam DR-100mkIII and am wondering if I should get it. The R-05 just has stereo mini inputs.)

?? Any special cables needed for these? 
Special backup batteries?
 Do I have to wear a fanny pack? 
Other accessories I'm not thinking of?   
Anyone care to send a PM with tips on stealth-facilitating clothing for a short guy?  I would look like a jackass in a Kangol but am not tall enough to put mics on shoulders and get good sound.  Baseball caps I can pull off OK. 


Plan B, tiniest possible stealth rig

• DPA 4060s>
• d:vice >
• iOS device [or if there is a way to use the R-05 I'd love to be able to set track markers etc. and use the features of the R-05]
  

?? Any special cables or batteries or needed for this? 
Software for the iOS device?   
Other accessories I'm not thinking of that I would realize are necessary three hours before the show? 
Tips on not checking what time it is on your phone while recording? 

If I can afford both plan A and plan B setups I think it would be best to have a more streamlined version as a backup, and the higher-quality gear for when it's feasible.  That might be a little bit over budget, though. 

Thanks again for talking me through this.   

P.S. Regarding my plea for PMs about hat methods etc., if anyone is worried that I am a spy from venue security because I haven't posted much here... 1) I'm not.  Look for my account name on dimeadozen and some of my old Sonic Studios DAT recordings may still be circulating there, though I haven't been actively torrenting in a while.  I believe I have mutual friends with daspyknows (Hodon's list) and know many many Deadhead tapers for decades - but most of them like me haven't kept up on all the new tech developments. 2)  I have had an account here since ~2014 IIRC but have never gotten my list of questions written down until now.  Shows would come around and I would not have time to decide on gear, and then after I missed taping those shows properly the pressure would be off and I would forget about it, and then more shows would come up, same deal, etc. etc. etc., but missing a year and a half of shows due to the pandemic has motivated me to make a decision finally.  I really want to tape shows on Labor Day weekend with something better than the built-in mics on the R-05. 

[morst]

Tips on not checking what time it is on your phone while recording? 

wrist watch?

[rocksuitcase]

kindms and I have spoken about using the D:vice for our DPA 4061sk's omnis.
IMO, you would/should use a dedicated phone for recording. IOW, NOT one which is your primary phone.

Plan B, tiniest possible stealth rig

    DPA 4060s>
    d:vice >
    iOS device [or if there is a way to use the R-05 I'd love to be able to set track markers etc. and use the features of the R-05]

?? Any special cables or batteries or needed for this?
Software for the iOS device?   
Other accessories I'm not thinking of that I would realize are necessary three hours before the show?
Tips on not checking what time it is on your phone while recording? 

[chiefscribe]

IMO, you would/should use a dedicated phone for recording. IOW, NOT one which is your primary phone.

because it will be unavailable for use as a phone, or are there other practical reasons?

Also wondering if getting files off the phone is a challenge.

[moondust.and.solitude]

Also wondering if getting files off the phone is a challenge.

For me it's not a challenge, as once I am on a wifi I upload the files to my DropBox account. From there I can do whatever I want with it.

[chiefscribe]

One nagging question is will I have an easier time overall (fewer custom cables required, more compatibility with everything else) if I upgrade to a recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power?  Saw a used Tascam DR-100mk3 that is significantly heavier and larger and more expensive than the R-05 but it does have 48V phantom power and XLRs and up to 192 kHz sampling rates and a clever hot-swappable battery system. 

[chiefscribe]

I ended up ordering that Tascam DR-100mkIII so will have the recorder with XLR input and phantom power if needed. 

Whether or not it changes what I use for concert recording, it has S/PDIF & therefore might speed up my long-term project of transferring the DAT collection to hard drive.  My old Mac laptop also has S/PDIF but this seems like it'll be easier to leave unattended while tapes run. 

So now I am back to pondering the stealthy mic power possibilities and hoping I can obtain the necessary items in the next 3.5 weeks. 

[chiefscribe]

once I am on a wifi I upload the files to my DropBox account

So you'd get a used / refurb phone, not set up any cell service on it, but use it in airplane mode with wifi to get it set up, put the DPA app on there, and transfer files - ? 

Is it really not possible to use one's primary phone to record? 

[Gutbucket]

Forgive my cluelessness but I don't know what "side addresses caps" / "sdc side-address" means - ?

sdc = small diameter condensor microphone - "pencil condensor", not a large diameter often switchable pattern condensor microphone, typically phantom powered)
"Side address" means the diaphragm faces out from the side of its tubular housing, rather than facing out the end of the tubular housing, which is refered to as "End address"

One nagging question is will I have an easier time overall (fewer custom cables required, more compatibility with everything else) if I upgrade to a recorder with XLR inputs and phantom power?

IMO, in general the less components and less cable connections, the more reliable and more stealth-able a rig will be.  There is a lot to be said in practical terms for eliminating extra stuff between the micrphones and recording device where possible.  Countering that is some minimal amount of "stuff in between" is often required to run the gear one wants, or achieve the highest levels of quality.

Capsules using the new small modular amplifiers directly into a recorder that can provide phantom powering is a way of achieving that simplicity, eliminating the stuff in between.  Recorders that provide phantom are somewhat larger though, so there is some trade off in size and other factors in the stealth equation.

So you'd get a used / refurb phone, not set up any cell service on it, but use it in airplane mode with wifi to get it set up, put the DPA app on there, and transfer files - ? 

Is it really not possible to use one's primary phone to record? 

I'm not a phone taper, but I'd feel more confident using a dedicated, perhaps older phone, or non-phone ios device for recording, if I were to go that route.  Can use the primary phone, but there is plenty of potential for something to go wrong and screw up a recording.  I tend to gravitate to gear that is simple and works without complication, perhaps because I run what most here consider to be ridiculously complicated multi-microphone setups, so keeping the recording chain, interconnects, and devices simple and dedicated to the purpose a hand makes for a valuable overall strategy for me.

[Gutbucket]

The elemental engineering trade off of this exercise is balancing the sound you want and will be satisfied with, against the constraints of practicality, reliability, stealth requirements, and cost.

[daspyknows]

Oh, are Nbox inline devices still available? I keep seeing that they are discontinued, and so are littleboxes and tinyboxes and PFAs from Naiant, so I was at a loss as to whether anyone is still making active cables or inline devices.  Hope so.  Yes, I pretty much only do stealth recording, even when open taping is an option, because I tend to go to shows with non-tapers who don't want their whole concert experience to revolve around me and my gear.  If schoepsnbox and/or Naiant are still making solutions that would let me use Schoeps caps with my recorder, that would be fantastic. 

NBox options all available.  PM Nick aka SchoepsNBox on here to discuss.

[jb63]

I regularly run a set of Sonic Studios DSM6s along side of dpa4061 mics and the difference is minimal, so if you still have your sonics, then you are in good shape for that kind of  and you can concentrate on larger caps. I also regularly run Schoeps MK5 caps with a similar system to what you're looking at and I've gotten so greedy for the DPA omni capture that I  with at least 2 rigs. Both small enough to get through most tight situations though I always fret about it beforehand.

There was a Neumann set modified in the yard sale years ago that looked like a good idea. I always regretted not buying those when they were offered up but how many mics can I realistically carry in?

Here are the Neumann SKM-140 set I mentioned, there's a link with pics.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=183674.msg2241099#msg2241099

Here is the CMR setup I currently use.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153390.msg1941209#msg1941209

If you have enough hair maybe you won't need a hat.

[Melanie]

I ended up ordering that Tascam DR-100mkIII so will have the recorder with XLR input and phantom power if needed. 

Whether or not it changes what I use for concert recording, it has S/PDIF & therefore might speed up my long-term project of transferring the DAT collection to hard drive.  My old Mac laptop also has S/PDIF but this seems like it'll be easier to leave unattended while tapes run. 

So now I am back to pondering the stealthy mic power possibilities and hoping I can obtain the necessary items in the next 3.5 weeks.

You made a great choice on a recorder, the Tascam dr100 mk3 is everything I need  for stealth recording, along with tiny DPA cardioids. Nothing better for stealth IMO. Long internal battery life with AA options. Quiet pre-amp with phantom power. What's not to love? Great for transferring old recordings to digital for transfer. Bob and Melanie

[moondust.and.solitude]

once I am on a wifi I upload the files to my DropBox account

So you'd get a used / refurb phone, not set up any cell service on it, but use it in airplane mode with wifi to get it set up, put the DPA app on there, and transfer files - ? 

Is it really not possible to use one's primary phone to record?

I actually use the latest generation iPod and not my iPhone. No worries about getting calls and/or texts. You can use your iPhone, sure, as a bunch of people do. I just like having the iPod set up more as a dedicated recorder with just apps that I use for recording and transferring.

[Scooter123]

If I had to pick a perfect rig after taping for 40 years I would pick these:

Main Rig. Schoeps + Actives + NBox + Any Recorder

Stealth Rig.  Schoeps + Actives + Baby NBox + Any Recorder

Super Stealth Rig. DPA + Battery Box + Any Recorder These are omnis so you’ll get crowd noise best for stack tapes and small clubs.

Crowd Crazy Rig (Crowd Noise) Same as Main Rig, substitute MK41s

[rigpimp]

Get some colette cables and a pair of mk4s.  Soon you'll have some omnis, hypers, subs, and even a mic stand and we will see you in the OTS!

My stealth rig is CCM4 > Tinybox > Sony M10.  I stitched some elastic into the band of a Kangol and no one has a clue.  Happy to talk shop via pm.  Check out the team boards section and hop into a local crew!

[H₂O]

Since you went with the D100mkIII


Just grab a pair of CMC1-L or K's


The L's disconnect at the edge of the body but this does add the lemo connector sticking out of the body - trade off is you can get custom cables made that are shorter and easier to stealth with
The K's have a set cable length (of what every you order at) but no lemo connector


You should be able to pick up a used set of mk4/4v/5/41/41v or even 22 caps to keep costs down


I wouldn't bother with an nbox and associated accessories with the CMC1's now avail and the fact you already have a handheld recorder that provides 48v phantom

[Scooter123]

Just grab a pair of CMC1-L or K's

I'm not familiar with the CMC-1, but isn't it a preamplier connected to the capsule? 

If so, that would add size and would be a no go for me to stealth, but perfectly fine for open taping. 

[seethreepo]

Just grab a pair of CMC1-L or K's

I'm not familiar with the CMC-1, but isn't it a preamplier connected to the capsule? 

If so, that would add size and would be a no go for me to stealth, but perfectly fine for open taping.

but with the cmc-1 you can lose the Nbox  also maybe more cost effective?  / easier to replace  sans custom box / cables.   

[darby]

Just grab a pair of CMC1-L or K's

I'm not familiar with the CMC-1, but isn't it a preamplier connected to the capsule? 

If so, that would add size and would be a no go for me to stealth, but perfectly fine for open taping.

but with the cmc-1 you can lose the Nbox  also maybe more cost effective?  / easier to replace  sans custom box / cables.

get a nice set of chopped right angle XLRs and the size difference is minimal
I had Scott at Shapeways design mounting bars for open taping with cmc1s

[H₂O]

The CMC1 L or K is much smaller then the original CMC1 - with capsule  it is a few mm's longer then a CCM
See here:
https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/microphone-amplifiers/cmc-1-l.html
https://schoeps.de/en/products/colette/microphone-amplifiers/cmc-1-k.html


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1598838-REG/schoeps_cmc_1_l_miniature_colette_series_amplifier.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvcvI1oCq8gIV1MfICh2opQHFEAQYASABEgLB8fD_BwE

[Scooter123]

Sorry, a pair of those CMC-1s is not stealthy enough to fit under a hat.  Apparently great for open taping. 

[yug du nord]

Schoeps CMC1 K (or) L are more or less same size as capsules + collettes but with full size XLR termination.
The CMC1 U picture above is the full body.. then add your own XLR cable.

[daspyknows]

It was many moons ago but at the 1989 AIDS Benefit we stealthed with full body KM84's in a hat.  It was a bigger hat.

[Scooter123]

Yeah, there was a Bay Area taper, I forget his name, that used full sized Neumanns under a hat.  He looked ridiculous.  That said, with bag checks, pat downs, and walk through metal detectors, I would not be able to stealth that rig.  Schoeps + NBox + Recorder is a little over the limit, but yeah we've done it.  My favorite is a day after the Manchester bombing where they blocked off three blocks around the Eric Clapton show, and had all three--bag check (which took forever), pat downs, wands, and a walk through metal detector.

Only a fool would try to stealth anything past that top notch security system. 

[chiefscribe]

Thanks again. This is very helpful. 

If I had to pick a perfect rig after taping for 40 years I would pick these:

Main Rig. Schoeps + Actives + NBox + Any Recorder

Stealth Rig.  Schoeps + Actives + Baby NBox + Any Recorder

Super Stealth Rig. DPA + Battery Box + Any Recorder These are omnis so you’ll get crowd noise best for stack tapes and small clubs.

Crowd Crazy Rig (Crowd Noise) Same as Main Rig, substitute MK41s

Very helpful advice format, thanks.  By "actives" do you mean the Schoeps active cables?  I admit I am not confident in my grasp of what the actives are doing vs. the NBox in this sequence, and which things render which other things unnecessary.  Like, with phantom power from the recorder, the preamp is not needed anymore?  Or is something still needed to make it work properly?  (My apologies if I am mangling the terms but despite years of lurking on these discussions and decades of tape trading and occasional recording, I still have not completely absorbed all the jargon and abbreviations.)  Or, with CMC1s, that just goes into the recorder, no other power boosting or signal processing needed? 

So if I understand correctly, and I may very well not, in addition to deciding on MK4s vs. MK41s, I need to choose one of these paths for the "moderately stealthy" option

MK4[1] > CMC1 with XLR cable> Tascam DR100mkIII

MK4[1] > Colette cable [WHICH ONE? HOW LONG?] > Nbox / baby Nbox  > [any cable needed?  or does the Nbox come with the cable?] R-05 recorder

Or if I got a Sonosax M2D2, this would render the Nbox/baby Nbox unnecessary - ?  But is more expensive and larger?  And if I understand correctly, Naiant alternatives that would fill this role are no longer being made? 

Am I missing something major in there? 

Since I don't know the dimensions of the nbox it is hard to compare which would be stealthier. 

Since my aim is to have gear ready to use on September 3, I am not sure which Schoeps packages are in stock these days and whether Nboxes can be made that fast but am in touch with Nick so will figure out if my deadline fits his production schedule. 

Re: the CMC1

The L's disconnect at the edge of the body but this does add the lemo connector sticking out of the body - trade off is you can get custom cables made that are shorter and easier to stealth with
The K's have a set cable length (of what every you order at) but no lemo connector

Custom cables sounds like it could take a while, and I don't know the best places to order them from, and am already a bit overwhelmed with new info, so maybe I should not do anything that requires custom cables - unless it's much easier and faster than it sounds. 




For the "as stealthy as humanly possible" option, I have ordered the DPA 4061s and d:vice/MMA-A.  Wish I could use the R-05 with that instead of an iOS device but I guess I will find a refurbished phone. Tascam DR-100mkIII is also en route, and if I don't use it for concerts it will help me get my DATs transferred w/o tying up my computer. 

[H₂O]

Please note the following pictures for Size comparisions of the CMC 1 series


First shot is CMC 1 K  - with standard attached 5m XLR-3 terminated cable


Second shot CMC 6 U, CMC 1 U, CMC 1 L


Third CCM41L, CMC 1 L w/ MK41 capsule

[Gutbucket]

typo correction on the last line above- the one on the left is CCM (not CMC)

"Third CCM41, CMC 1 L w/ MK41 capsule"

[chiefscribe]

Having trouble finding matched stereo sets of MK4s anywhere at the moment.  Single capsules, yes, but not sets, which I'd prefer.  B&H had some listed but when I inquired about their preorder times of 7-14 business days they said the actual estimate is 3 months.  Used from a trusted taper would be great but I don't see any in the yard sale at the moment and I am not going through some eBay seller outside the U.S.. 

If I can't get this setup in my hands by Sept. 3rd the project becomes much less urgent because Labor Day weekend is when the shows I'd like to record to are happening.   

[daspyknows]

Personally I would not get hung up on a matched pair.  I have MK4's and MK41's and neither pair is matched but not noticeably different.

[H₂O]

Personally I would not get hung up on a matched pair.  I have MK4's and MK41's and neither pair is matched but not noticeably different.

I agree - I have owned both matched and unmatched pairs of various schoeps caps over the years - including alot of vintage caps (mk2xx series for m221, CMT30, CMMT30 series mics) and only 2 capsules of the same type I have owned that where noticeably different are set of mk24c's which both are almost/over 50 years old now.


As long as the caps are well cared for and manufactured around within the same few years or so I think it will be hard to find caps that are noticeably different


 

[Scooter123]

Thanks again. This is very helpful. 

If I had to pick a perfect rig after taping for 40 years I would pick these:

Main Rig. Schoeps + Actives + NBox + Any Recorder

Stealth Rig.  Schoeps + Actives + Baby NBox + Any Recorder

Super Stealth Rig. DPA + Battery Box + Any Recorder These are omnis so you’ll get crowd noise best for stack tapes and small clubs.

Crowd Crazy Rig (Crowd Noise) Same as Main Rig, substitute MK41s

Very helpful advice format, thanks.  By "actives" do you mean the Schoeps active cables?  I admit I am not confident in my grasp of what the actives are doing vs. the NBox in this sequence, and which things render which other things unnecessary.  Like, with phantom power from the recorder, the preamp is not needed anymore?  Or is something still needed to make it work properly?  (My apologies if I am mangling the terms but despite years of lurking on these discussions and decades of tape trading and occasional recording, I still have not completely absorbed all the jargon and abbreviations.)  Or, with CMC1s, that just goes into the recorder, no other power boosting or signal processing needed? 

So if I understand correctly, and I may very well not, in addition to deciding on MK4s vs. MK41s, I need to choose one of these paths for the "moderately stealthy" option

MK4[1] > CMC1 with XLR cable> Tascam DR100mkIII

MK4[1] > Colette cable [WHICH ONE? HOW LONG?] > Nbox / baby Nbox  > [any cable needed?  or does the Nbox come with the cable?] R-05 recorder

Or if I got a Sonosax M2D2, this would render the Nbox/baby Nbox unnecessary - ?  But is more expensive and larger?  And if I understand correctly, Naiant alternatives that would fill this role are no longer being made? 

Am I missing something major in there? 

Since I don't know the dimensions of the nbox it is hard to compare which would be stealthier. 

Since my aim is to have gear ready to use on September 3, I am not sure which Schoeps packages are in stock these days and whether Nboxes can be made that fast but am in touch with Nick so will figure out if my deadline fits his production schedule. 

Re: the CMC1

The L's disconnect at the edge of the body but this does add the lemo connector sticking out of the body - trade off is you can get custom cables made that are shorter and easier to stealth with
The K's have a set cable length (of what every you order at) but no lemo connector

Custom cables sounds like it could take a while, and I don't know the best places to order them from, and am already a bit overwhelmed with new info, so maybe I should not do anything that requires custom cables - unless it's much easier and faster than it sounds. 




For the "as stealthy as humanly possible" option, I have ordered the DPA 4061s and d:vice/MMA-A.  Wish I could use the R-05 with that instead of an iOS device but I guess I will find a refurbished phone. Tascam DR-100mkIII is also en route, and if I don't use it for concerts it will help me get my DATs transferred w/o tying up my computer.

Yeah, there is no "one size fits all" combination, and you need to decide what kind of taping you will do (I am exclusively stealth) and where the concert is going to be (clubs, theaters, big arenas) and within that concert location where you are going to sit (by the stack, floor tickets, often called taper seats, or the cheap seats).  I am a small club and arena taper, so my rigs are meant for those locations, and I try to buy floor seats, ideal for taping.  Nothing wrong with up front by the stacks, called a stack tape.   

Yes, "actives" are custom cables made by Nick that connect the microphone to the NBox or other preamp.  They get a lot of hard use (sweat, yanking) and will need re-cabling every couple years.  The NBox is way smaller than a traditional preamp, like a Sonosax and the connections are smaller.  The Baby NBox is the size of a pack of cigarettes, so it is ridiculously small.

[MakersMarc]

While you may be able to pull decent tapes with other microphones, the odds of pulling a good tape in a bad location is better with Schoeps or Neumanns.   

Gotta' disagree with you there.  Location is everything, and anyone thinking they can make up for suboptimal location simply by purchasing a certain brand of microphone is setting themselves up for disappointment.

Bingo.

[MakersMarc]

Don’t worry too much about purchasing the perfect rig. I’d start by snapping up those matches mk41s Shaggy is selling in the Yard Sale section. You already have a D100, so you’ll want to contact Schoepsnbox (Nick) and ask him to build you a set of 15’ nbob kcy cables. I prefer these to the official Schoeps kcy, those are too stiff  for $tealth, You will also need an nbox, which you will run line into your d100. You may find this size setup to be too bulky, I did. But first give me a call if you like. It is sooo hard to distill all this info, and most of us are reluctant to talk about this in an open forum. Call me before you buy.

[chiefscribe]

I’d start by snapping up those matches mk41s Shaggy is selling in the Yard Sale section.

 

Ah, I figured anything in the Yard Sale that was more than a month or two old was probably not available anymore. Will do a more extensive search.  In my listening tests, I prefer the MK4s, but it was a close call.  Most shows I see have a more chill crowd and not too much noise but I am not very tall so if there is noise it's probably right at my ear level.  If a matched pair of 41s could arrive on time, that might sway me, since thus far I have not found any way to get Schoeps capsules in time for the shows I want to record on Labor Day weekend.

DPA mics have arrived, as has the DR-100mkIII.  The d:vice for the DPAs should be here soon.  I admit I don't even know enough about phantom power etc. to know whether I can use the DPAs with the included microdot>XLR adapter with the DR-100mkIII's phantom power.  If so I'd play around with recording nature sounds to get a sense of what's possible.   Like, if the DPAs require 5-9V of power, and the Tascam DR-100mkIII provides either 12V or 48V of phantom power, does that mean that the DPAs with XLR adapter would work fine (because the recorder provides more than enough power), or would not work at all (because the voltage levels are different), or would require an intermediary device for other reasons (because of balanced/unbalanced signals or whatever)?  I understand the need for power, gain, etc., and that there are compatibility issues between balanced and unbalanced signals (though I don't know exactly what those are), but not how these concepts apply when figuring out which gear would go well with which other gear.  So again, when answering, assume I have the knowledge of a child on some of these matters. 

Some people are suggesting other recorders, but with two already I would need a really good reason to get a 3rd one instead of saving that money to spend on mics and power and gain.  And a foolish-looking hat, sigh. 

You already have a D100, so you’ll want to contact Schoepsnbox (Nick) and ask him to build you a set of 15’ nbob kcy cables. ... You will also need an nbox, which you will run line into your d100.

Thanks. If I were getting custom cables made and an nbox (or babynbox, not sure what the difference is yet - ?), is there any reason to get ones that could work with the R-05 (stereo mini input)?  I understand the Tascam is a more solid deck and has phantom power, and XLR is sturdier, but if the point is stealth, the R-05 is the size of a deck of cards and extremely light and easy to carry. The Tascam definitely has the look and heft of serious audio equipment.   

[daspyknows]

Thanks. If I were getting custom cables made and an nbox (or babynbox, not sure what the difference is yet - ?), is there any reason to get ones that could work with the R-05 (stereo mini input)?  I understand the Tascam is a more solid deck and has phantom power, and XLR is sturdier, but if the point is stealth, the R-05 is the size of a deck of cards and extremely light and easy to carry. The Tascam definitely has the look and heft of serious audio equipment.

The nbox is a pre-amp/power supply that you would run in at line level avoiding the recorder preamp which is inferior.  The babynbox is just a power supply that you would run mic in.  Pro's for nbox vs babynbox are better sound.  Cons are it is larger, heavier and has more metal to set off metal detectors.  I have both and use both depending on security.  I often bring both and have the babynbox as a backup.  In regards to a recorder the R-05/Tascam DR-2D/Sony A-10 and similar small form recorders are easier to navigate security.  I had a DR100 but found the DR-2D was easier to stealth with and with the nbox there was no obvious difference in quality.  When using the babynbox I am in a situation where I wouldn't be using the DR100 anyway.  I agree the XLRs are sturdier but with gaffers/duct tape I can tape shit up so the minijacks are sturdy enough.

[Scooter123]

The nbox is a pre-amp/power supply that you would run in at line level avoiding the recorder preamp which is inferior.  The babynbox is just a power supply that you would run mic in.  Pro's for nbox vs babynbox are better sound.  Cons are it is larger, heavier and has more metal to set off metal detectors.  I have both and use both depending on security.  I often bring both and have the babynbox as a backup.  In regards to a recorder the R-05/Tascam DR-2D/Sony A-10 and similar small form recorders are easier to navigate security.  I had a DR100 but found the DR-2D was easier to stealth with and with the nbox there was no obvious difference in quality.  When using the babynbox I am in a situation where I wouldn't be using the DR100 anyway.  I agree the XLRs are sturdier but with gaffers/duct tape I can tape shit up so the minijacks are sturdy enough.

+1

But ... The Sony A10 has to be recharged with USB cables, and has a limited battery span.  I can run my M10 or the DR2d for 12 hours+  So the Dr2d and Sony M10 are better suited for long festivals.  XLRs take up too much space, like minijacks for stealth purposes. 

[morst]

But ... The Sony A10 has to be recharged with USB cables, and has a limited battery span.  I can run my M10 or the DR2d for 12 hours+  So the Dr2d and Sony M10 are better suited for long festivals.  XLRs take up too much space, like minijacks for stealth purposes.

True, but the A10 should make it through most days on a charge.
Also you can plug A10 into USB power any time and top up the battery, or just leave it running off a USB pack if needed. Though it kinda kills the advantage of the tiny unit.
I had an issue with the size of the A10 for the past few weeks, because I could not find the dang thing until I really looked in the gear drawer!


On the other hand, the M10 is amazing on battery life.
I just ran 9 hours plus on a pair of cheap alkalines, and it has not dropped a bar!

[Scooter123]

The Sony M10 can go somewhere between 20-30 hours on its AAAs. 

[morst]

The Sony M10 can go somewhere between 20-30 hours on its AAAs.

* AA's

[rocksuitcase]

The Sony M10 can go somewhere between 20-30 hours on its AAAs.

I ran 17 sets, an entire 10 day run at jazzfest with one set of AA's in the M-10. Now, I wasn't even using PiP, just a bitbucket out of a Mix-Pre

[morst]

The Sony M10 can go somewhere between 20-30 hours on its AAAs.

I ran 17 sets, an entire 10 day run at jazzfest with one set of AA's in the M-10. Now, I wasn't even using PiP, just a bitbucket out of a Mix-Pre

Signalbucket?
Bitbucket implies digital recording from a digital signal. M10 is analog in only.

[rocksuitcase]

The Sony M10 can go somewhere between 20-30 hours on its AAAs.

I ran 17 sets, an entire 10 day run at jazzfest with one set of AA's in the M-10. Now, I wasn't even using PiP, just a bitbucket out of a Mix-Pre

Signalbucket?
Bitbucket implies digital recording from a digital signal. M10 is analog in only.

YES. I LIKE this term. Signalbucket!   I was wondering what we should call it.   Thanks morst- you da man! Adding a new term to the vocabulary. 

[Scooter123]

I call a recorder which stores digital files (1s and 0s) a bit bucket

[rocksuitcase]

I call a recorder which stores digital files (1s and 0s) a bit bucket

Yes, I do too. BUT following on what morst said about the Sony M10 specifically:

Bitbucket implies digital recording from a digital signal. M10 is analog in only.

hence, the most apt: Signalbucket.   

[chiefscribe]

The nbox is a pre-amp/power supply that you would run in at line level avoiding the recorder preamp which is inferior.  The babynbox is just a power supply that you would run mic in.  Pro's for nbox vs babynbox are better sound.  Cons are it is larger, heavier and has more metal to set off metal detectors.  I have both and use both depending on security.  I often bring both and have the babynbox as a backup.  In regards to a recorder the R-05/Tascam DR-2D/Sony A-10 and similar small form recorders are easier to navigate security.  I had a DR100 but found the DR-2D was easier to stealth with and with the nbox there was no obvious difference in quality.  When using the babynbox I am in a situation where I wouldn't be using the DR100 anyway.  I agree the XLRs are sturdier but with gaffers/duct tape I can tape shit up so the minijacks are sturdy enough.

Thanks.  Yeah, the DR100mkiii is a bit large and solid for stealth, but I like it already for the quality build and features.  Several people are telling me I MUST get an M10 too but haven't yet said why in a way that makes sense to me.  What does it provide that the R-05 does not - just longer battery life?  I haven't had a problem with battery life on the R-05 and don't tend to record many sets in sequence (e.g. at festivals) so if it lasts through the opening act and main performance that's good enough.  Is there something I'm missing about why the M10 would be an essential addition?  I keep wanting to focus on learning what I need to know about which cables and other power & gain solutions are needed and keep getting told to upgrade recorders too.  Until I have some capsules and a way for them to work with the existing recorders I'd rather focus on the absolutely necessary missing links in my rig(s).
 

[chiefscribe]

Also, re: the DPA406x > DPA MMA-A [aka d:vice] > iOS device route, I assume some other app is needed aside from the DPA microphones app?  Or does that one do the recording too?  I never would have thought I'd be doing anything audio-related on an iPhone but that is why they call me Rip van Winkle. 

[Gutbucket]

Your R05 and DR100 will do fine. 

Use of the DPA d:vice solution will require a 3rd party recording app on the iOS device in addition to the DPA interface app. Here's the primary d:vice thread with info on what folks are using- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=181868.msg2361213#msg2361213

I hear you.  Recording to a phone does seem somehow odd or just not right with regards to true quality recording, doesn't it?

[chiefscribe]

Here's the primary d:vice thread with info on what folks are using- https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=181868.msg2361213#msg2361213

Thank you very much. I'm sure I would have found that eventually but have been spending many many hours researching various items people have suggested I obtain or offered to sell me, so I am happy to have one less thing to research.

[daspyknows]

The nbox is a pre-amp/power supply that you would run in at line level avoiding the recorder preamp which is inferior.  The babynbox is just a power supply that you would run mic in.  Pro's for nbox vs babynbox are better sound.  Cons are it is larger, heavier and has more metal to set off metal detectors.  I have both and use both depending on security.  I often bring both and have the babynbox as a backup.  In regards to a recorder the R-05/Tascam DR-2D/Sony A-10 and similar small form recorders are easier to navigate security.  I had a DR100 but found the DR-2D was easier to stealth with and with the nbox there was no obvious difference in quality.  When using the babynbox I am in a situation where I wouldn't be using the DR100 anyway.  I agree the XLRs are sturdier but with gaffers/duct tape I can tape shit up so the minijacks are sturdy enough.

Thanks.  Yeah, the DR100mkiii is a bit large and solid for stealth, but I like it already for the quality build and features.  Several people are telling me I MUST get an M10 too but haven't yet said why in a way that makes sense to me.  What does it provide that the R-05 does not - just longer battery life?  I haven't had a problem with battery life on the R-05 and don't tend to record many sets in sequence (e.g. at festivals) so if it lasts through the opening act and main performance that's good enough.  Is there something I'm missing about why the M10 would be an essential addition?  I keep wanting to focus on learning what I need to know about which cables and other power & gain solutions are needed and keep getting told to upgrade recorders too.  Until I have some capsules and a way for them to work with the existing recorders I'd rather focus on the absolutely necessary missing links in my rig(s).
 

R-05 or later versions/ M-10,A-10.Tascam DR-2D/Edirol (don't know model #'s)/Zoom (don't know model #'s) all are small stealthable recorders that serve the same purpose.  If you have a R-05 and like it, there is no reason to upgrade the recorder until you have built out your rig.  Different tapers like different recorders but they all meet the requirements.

[MakersMarc]

ymmv, but I will never again run mic in to a handheld deck, the stock preamps are just too weak. I've tried the preamps in the A10 and M10, in perfect locations, and been gravely disappointed every time, running 41/4v>nbobs>babynbox>deck. I really wanted to go small, and personally the nbox, while a marvelous piece of gear, isn't the sound I’m looking for. So for $200 each I had three Marantz 620s warm modded by Doug, and couldn't be happier. Night and day, a good 20-30% improvement to my ears. I think $200 for a top notch tiny ass preamp is well worth that, try finding an outboard equivalent, good luck-unless you stumble upon a Tinybox. Doug doesn't advertise it, but he does also mod m10s.

Now running line in, totally different story. I think pretty much every handheld, including A10, M10, Roland, Marantz 620 feature good to very good line input stages. My 620s happen to be line in modded as well, but it's not something I'd find necessary by itself.  For open taping I have caps>nbob>pfa>warm mod Marantz 661, if I even bother changing up, both setups sound really good imo.

my 2 cents which generally speaking doesn't mean shit.

[morst]

Doug doesn't advertise it, but he does also mod m10s.

 

[MakersMarc]

Doug doesn't advertise it, but he does also mod m10s.

 

Doug sez the m10 mods sound a bit better to him, than the 620 mods, but something you’re not likely to hear absent a reference system.

[jb63]

ymmv, but I will never again run mic in to a handheld deck, the stock preamps are just too weak. I've tried the preamps in the A10 and M10, in perfect locations, and been gravely disappointed every time, running 41/4v>nbobs>babynbox>deck. I really wanted to go small, and personally the nbox, while a marvelous piece of gear, isn't the sound I’m looking for. So for $200 each I had three Marantz 620s warm modded by Doug, and couldn't be happier. Night and day, a good 20-30% improvement to my ears. I think $200 for a top notch tiny ass preamp is well worth that, try finding an outboard equivalent, good luck-unless you stumble upon a Tinybox.

I agree with all this, but wait-- are you saying that you use the Mic in as your preamp on your Modded PMD620 tapes?

[morst]

Doug sez the m10 mods sound a bit better to him, than the 620 mods, but something you’re not likely to hear absent a reference system.

HominaHominaHomina...
That sounds like a playback challenge!?!
 


Hello, Operator, give me Thomasville please!?

[MakersMarc]

ymmv, but I will never again run mic in to a handheld deck, the stock preamps are just too weak. I've tried the preamps in the A10 and M10, in perfect locations, and been gravely disappointed every time, running 41/4v>nbobs>babynbox>deck. I really wanted to go small, and personally the nbox, while a marvelous piece of gear, isn't the sound I’m looking for. So for $200 each I had three Marantz 620s warm modded by Doug, and couldn't be happier. Night and day, a good 20-30% improvement to my ears. I think $200 for a top notch tiny ass preamp is well worth that, try finding an outboard equivalent, good luck-unless you stumble upon a Tinybox.

I agree with all this, but wait-- are you sayin ghat you use the Mic in as your preamp on your Modded PMD620 tapes?

yes, every time. the babynbox just powers the cap, my gain comes from the 620.

[chiefscribe]

Pieces of a mostly used Schoeps rig are starting to be assembled finally so if all goes well soon I can actually practice recording with the good stuff.

Wish I could find an elementary lesson on the electrical signal dos & don'ts, esp. since I will be dealing with used gear that generally doesn't come with original documentation or instructions. 

Thus far I gather that
- unbalanced output cannot go into preamp with phantom power https://www.sounddevices.com/the-danger-of-applying-phantom-power-to-unbalanced-outputs/

and I assume that power all gear needs to be turned off before anything is connected or disconnected. 

But I am hoping to get up to speed on what else I need to know to use these things properly.

E.g. I have the DPA 4060 microphones and the DAD6001 microdot-to-XLR adapter that comes with them.  The mic specs on DPA's website say

With DAD6001-BC: P48 (Phantom Power). Will work from 12 V.

So this sounds like I could plug them into the Tascam DR-100mkiii phantom power, right?  Or is there some other reason that I would fry some circuit if I try this? 

How does one know when to use mic in vs. line in? 

I want to learn how to know which gear is compatible with which other gear but have not found any lessons geared for a complete newbie like me.  In the meantime I'm not going to plug anything into anything else until I know I can.  But I am eager to play with the new stuff so I hope I can learn the basics ASAP. 

[yug du nord]

^I believe that this:
“With DAD6001-BC: P48 (Phantom Power). Will work from 12 V”
(quote from DPA website regarding (including) 4060) means that with the DAD6001-BC adapter you can power via P48 (48V Phantom Power) but will also work to spec via P12 (12V Phantom Power).

So I think that with the DAD6001-BC adapter you can plug straight into the XLR mike inputs with P48 power (or P12) on those inputs on your Tascam deck and press record!
Congrats on the new rig!!

……I do not run mini DPA’s so I have zero first hand experience… but that’s how I read the specs of the 4060.
Maybe wait til someone else confirms or not.

Mike Input for internal preamps.
Line Input for line level (external preamp or soundboard feed),
Line Input could also be used for very loud sources where the signal from microphone does not need to be amplified by preamp.

[morst]

Wish I could find an elementary lesson on the electrical signal dos & don'ts, esp. since I will be dealing with used gear that generally doesn't come with original documentation or instructions. 

Lots of user manuals online, and some on this very site!

Thus far I gather that
- unbalanced output cannot go into preamp with phantom power https://www.sounddevices.com/the-danger-of-applying-phantom-power-to-unbalanced-outputs/

The type of microphone which can utilize phantom power will have three conductors on its cable, usually as an XLR connector.
Unbalanced signals are carried via 2-conductor cables, so that will not provide a way to supply phantom power (voltage) to the mics.
In other words, if you have mics which require phantom power, you will not be running their outputs unbalanced.
If you get a board patch some time which is unbalanced, you could probably pass it through your pre-amp, as long as Phantom Power is switched off.
Though most board feeds won't need to be pre-amplified at all, as they should already be at "line level"

I assume that power all gear needs to be turned off before anything is connected or disconnected. 

It's a good idea.
Phantom power is the most finicky, and may cause crazy signal pops to connected gear.
Worst case might be if you have the deck set for phantom, and running in record mode, and someone is patched out, and THEN you plug the mics in while it's on!?
Once the mic capacitors charge up, and the circuit begins to send signal, you might get a hit of maximum level!
Such an abrupt loud sound could harm the hearing of someone monitoring with headphones!?

...

How does one know when to use mic in vs. line in? 

If line-in doesn't give you the signal level you expect from a pair of otherwise-unamplified mics (battery box with no pre-amp?), and the input level is turned up beyond approx 70-80%, try the mic inputs.
It's really a matter of gain (signal amplification) once you have the mics powered (whether via batteries or by phantom voltage supplied by a deck or preamp) 

I want to learn how to know which gear is compatible with which other gear but have not found any lessons geared for a complete newbie like me.
In the meantime I'm not going to plug anything into anything else until I know I can.  But I am eager to play with the new stuff so I hope I can learn the basics ASAP.

I'm happy to answer questions here or privately.

[chiefscribe]

Thanks.

Lots of user manuals online, and some on this very site!

I have looked at some product manuals, but the kind of elementary level overview I am looking for I have not found yet.  Did everyone else on this board get advanced degrees in sound engineering or work as electricians or ?

[rocksuitcase]

Thanks.
  Did everyone else on this board get advanced degrees in sound engineering or work as electricians or ?

I had to laugh at this chiefscribe. Since I do have an advanced degree in acoustics and have done my share of soundboard running, owning PA's etc. HOWEVER, I believe the majority of tapers learn this stuff by doing not schooling (best learning is doing in this field). What you are asking is actually sensible, "how do different pieces of gear match up, can I use this with that" etc.  However, the real world answers are the types morst is providing. The answer to your overarching thought is NO, there is no primer manual where these things are outlined and pursued in more detail. In fact, TS and other sites dedicated to recording (Gearslutz, tapeheads, etc) has extensive archives for finding about specific pieces of gear and others' experience with them. on TS, the articles are not well catalogued and can be a hike to search with the proper keywords, but it can be done.

I read your questions and feel you are doing OK with the learning curve so far. don't be afraid to plug things in and try it. most shit will not blow up due to mic vs line issues. the terminology is high sensitivity (generally uses PiP) vs low sensitivity (generally uses P48) mics. Some sites such as Sweetwater and prodigital offer user information about the gear they sell.
https://mynewmicrophone.com/microphone-sensitivity/
https://acousticnature.com/blog       This guy is a field recordist and has some non engineering type explanations

You are here in the right place to learn!
OTH- in an OTS at Phish SPAC 2019, I learned from some of the other guys that taperssection is often referred to as "Audio Engineering Society section"!   
ymmv

[vanark]

Let me assure you that you can make great recordings without understanding the engineering behind the gear. Don't get too caught up in the technical issues. You need to get out there and press record in order to make any recording. Don't let the information overload get in the way of getting out there.

[morst]

I have looked at some product manuals, but the kind of elementary level overview I am looking for I have not found yet.  Did everyone else on this board get advanced degrees in sound engineering or work as electricians or ?

Go to archive.org and browse shows recorded with gear of interest and take a listen.
Keep notes on what your ears prefer!?


I don't have an advanced degree, but I have been a working professional sound mixer and my current (idle due to pandemic) occupation is a technical one in the A/V area, as a stagehand.
I like to explain things though, not the least because it helps me to understand them better if I can verbalize them...
I realize that this is some dense stuff.
Audio recording relies on the sciences of acoustics, physics, electronics, and even psychoacoustics. Lots of angles.
Thanks for bearing with me in the technical weeds, and remember, nobody is born knowing this stuff!!

[chiefscribe]

I know what my ears prefer, but what I want to know is how to take care of the gear I'm getting properly and how to know which devices are compatible with which other ones.  If I see a list of specs for a certain cable, I understand the different connector types, i.e. that XLR is not the same as LEMO, but my eyes start glazing over when it gets into differently wired versions of XLR.  So if I needed an XLR cable to go between some capsules and a particular preamp or recorder, I can read the input specs on the preamp and recorder and purchase the correct item if that info is provided, but I would not know *why* that kind and not the other kind.  How does everyone else learn this?  I am not tech-averse and my reading comprehension is fine, but I haven't yet seen an introductory explanation of why one piece of gear is or isn't compatible with another.

For now, all I need to know is how to care for the gear I'm getting, and some practice getting set up for  situations, but I wish I understood more about the electrical signal aspect of things.   

[morst]

I know what my ears prefer, but what I want to know is how to take care of the gear I'm getting properly and how to know which devices are compatible with which other ones.  If I see a list of specs for a certain cable, I understand the different connector types, i.e. that XLR is not the same as LEMO, but my eyes start glazing over when it gets into differently wired versions of XLR.  So if I needed an XLR cable to go between some capsules and a particular preamp or recorder, I can read the input specs on the preamp and recorder and purchase the correct item if that info is provided, but I would not know *why* that kind and not the other kind.  How does everyone else learn this? 

XLR cables are standardized.
Unfortunately, the wiring of the things that they plug into is not.
So the most common problem matching gear connected via XLR would be that some manufacturers choose to use Pin 3 as the "hot" pin and others have Pin 2 hot.
Pin 1 is ground in both schemes.
This blurb from a reputable midwestern USA audio dealer sheds light on the history of why there is mismatch.
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/pin-2-pin-3-mismatches-what/

In the 1970’s and early 1980’s pin 3 hot gear was actually (slightly) more common, but the debate had shifted in favor of pin 2 by 1990 and now “almost” everyone makes equipment according to the pin 2 “standard.”

If you get it mismatched, the signal will be "polarity inverted" but not otherwise damaged. This can be fixed in post.

[rigpimp]

Thanks.

Lots of user manuals online, and some on this very site!

I have looked at some product manuals, but the kind of elementary level overview I am looking for I have not found yet.  Did everyone else on this board get advanced degrees in sound engineering or work as electricians or ?

What Rory said, go out and hit record.  There is a thread you can post in (or review in advance) about all of the mistakes we make...and repeat. 

You could do what I did and buy or borrow a book on micrphone technology and recording techniques.  It helped me tons.  There is also TONS of youtube video and DPA University.  https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university

[rocksuitcase]

in the education vein:
https://audiouniversityonline.com/5-must-read-books-for-audio-engineers/

I like the fifth choice: 5.) Best Book for Technical Audio Concepts – Handbook for Sound Engineers by Glen Ballou- https://amzn.to/3jcZ3RH

#1 too: Best All-Around Book for Audio Production – https://amzn.to/3m5C38R

[morst]

30 years ago I checked out the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook from the library, and read that whole thing.
There is now a third edition available.

book review
https://www.musitechnic.com/en/yamaha-sound-reinforcement-handbook-book-review/

The YSRH is a classic for a reason; it goes through everything you need to know about live sound that can be taught in a book. It is a technical read, there are no anecdotes, just straight facts. The book covers the audio theory involved and the practical applications of that theory, that will allow you to design, use and troubleshoot a sound system for a variety of needs.

[aaronji]

It is all pretty complicated, but, as vanark mentioned, you don't necessarily need to understand it all to make good tapes. It does help to figure out combinations of gear that will work well together and settings, though. I PM'ed you with a few thoughts. I hope it doesn't just add to the confusion!

[chiefscribe]

Thanks, all.

Even though this is about headphones mainly it covers some of the things I was wondering about
https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/04/headphone-jacks-plugs-explained/

as does this https://www.audiostance.com/audio-connectors-and-cables/

though neither one mentions LEMO. 

I think I was spoiled by DAT & digital cables - yes, S/PDIF cables were somewhat difficult to find back then, and there was copy protection on consumer decks to worry about, but at least data = data = data so I wasn't worried about destroying devices by plugging something in.  Either analog is much more complicated, or I am too old a dog to learn new tricks very easily.

[seethreepo]

https://www.headphonesty.com/2019/04/demevalos-guide-to-building-audio-cables/

another nifty article linked to the above headphone jack wiki

[chiefscribe]

Cool. That actually seems doable, not by me necessarily, but good to know it's not brain surgery.

[chiefscribe]

Having received much advice and assistance from several forum members, I have assembled enough gear to record some shows this week.

one with used Schoeps Colette capsules > actives > platinum nbox to go into my old R-05 recorder, with used PFAs that could go into my Tascam DR-100mkiii as an alternative
Ended up with MK4s, which sound the best to me overall in my listening tests, but also MK41s for more difficult or noisy situations, and MK4Vs which fit best in the concealed location for subtle field recording purposes.  Obviously don't need both 4s and 4Vs, but couldn't decide based on the samples I heard so wanted to test for myself and decide which one to sell later.  Baby nbox will be on the way soon but I won't have it in time for the shows this week, my first live music since the pre-pandemic era.  Don't know if I remember how to go to shows, but it'll all come back to me soon I hope.

and

one with DPA 4060s > DPA MMA-A/d:vice preamp > refurbished iPhone SE running metarecorder and the DPA app. 

Still a few lingering questions about setting up the DPA rig.  I wasn't planning on using the windscreens for  but when I tried putting them on just to test them I fiddled around for a while and thought I was going to rip them and gave up.  If I ever need the windscreens hopefully I'll figure out how to put them on without damaging anything. 

Also in the midst of setting up the iPhone and am wondering whether to delete mail and message apps from there. I will keep it in airplane mode of course but wondering what else I can do to keep that phone clear of any distractions and interruptions while it's recording. 

Also wondering about the metarecorder file format - CAF is better, I assume? But my computer is too old to run dropbox so I am wary of huge files.  I like the R-05's automatic seamless file-splitting feature. That would come in handy for making phone files easier to transfer to computer. 

And still trying to figure out a few details about how mic placement would differ with the different capsules. 

Thanks again to everyone who advised me.  Wish me luck...

[morst]

You can download directly from Dropbox without using their terrible app, if that helps.

[MakersMarc]

You can download directly from Dropbox without using their terrible app, if that helps.

Yep, once I decided to abandon the shit apps, it’s really quick and solid for downloads

[chiefscribe]

Welp, I thought I was doing enough research and searching how people set levels with the R-05.  The post I found said 40 was great for really loud shows, and I was not going to a really loud show, so I thought 40 would be OK.  Nope, quiet songs sound great but everything else is clipped a little, just enough to sound not that great.  Too bad because the sound in person was absolutely perfect.  Perhaps that was with babynbox rather than nbox.  Where is that time machine so I can do this again?   

[capnhook]

Welp, I thought I was doing enough research and searching how people set levels with the R-05.  The post I found said 40 was great for really loud shows, and I was not going to a really loud show, so I thought 40 would be OK.  Nope, quiet songs sound great but everything else is clipped a little, just enough to sound not that great.  Too bad because the sound in person was absolutely perfect.  Perhaps that was with babynbox rather than nbox.  Where is that time machine so I can do this again?   

PM sent about the clipped .wav....don't throw that shit out yet.

[daspyknows]

Welp, I thought I was doing enough research and searching how people set levels with the R-05.  The post I found said 40 was great for really loud shows, and I was not going to a really loud show, so I thought 40 would be OK.  Nope, quiet songs sound great but everything else is clipped a little, just enough to sound not that great.  Too bad because the sound in person was absolutely perfect.  Perhaps that was with babynbox rather than nbox.  Where is that time machine so I can do this again?   

PM sent about the clipped .wav....don't throw that shit out yet.

Thx.  Was hoping someone could help with this.

[chiefscribe]

PM sent about the clipped .wav....don't throw that shit out yet.

Thanks. Reply sent. It's not too bad, not digital noise, just some distortion. Maybe some of it is salvageable. 

[jbosco]

30 years ago I checked out the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook from the library, and read that whole thing.
There is now a third edition available.

book review
https://www.musitechnic.com/en/yamaha-sound-reinforcement-handbook-book-review/

The YSRH is a classic for a reason; it goes through everything you need to know about live sound that can be taught in a book. It is a technical read, there are no anecdotes, just straight facts. The book covers the audio theory involved and the practical applications of that theory, that will allow you to design, use and troubleshoot a sound system for a variety of needs.

^^^^ +1

I know it's old school, but back in the 80's and 90's when people would ask for tips about audio and mixing this book is the first place I sent them.

[rigpimp]

Welp, I thought I was doing enough research and searching how people set levels with the R-05.  The post I found said 40 was great for really loud shows, and I was not going to a really loud show, so I thought 40 would be OK.  Nope, quiet songs sound great but everything else is clipped a little, just enough to sound not that great.  Too bad because the sound in person was absolutely perfect.  Perhaps that was with babynbox rather than nbox.  Where is that time machine so I can do this again?   

Define "everything else" because if you are referring to the loud applause between songs then that is par for the course.  Lots of us here have experience muting obnoxious applause. 

As Kev said, don't throw that shit out yet.  I kept a recording from 1996 hoping that someday technology would catch up.  It did catch up and I was able to finally make it listenable.  http://bt.etree.org/details.php?torrentId=594063  I have said it MANY times before but there is a special place in heaven for the engineers at iZotope.

[chiefscribe]

PM sent about the clipped .wav....don't throw that shit out yet.

Many thanks to capnhook for declip assistance. All was not lost.