Topic: Onstage mic placement for Onstage/SBD Matrix...

[baustin]

I've been doing a lot of SBD/Onstage mic matrices lately. Anybody else out there doing anything like this?

I've tried quite a few different mic setups including cardioid, sub-cardioid, and split omnis. For the most part I've been OK with the results, but not thrilled. Then the other night the proverbial light clicked and I decided to run hypercards with the 80Hz bass rolloff.

Here's how I usually setup at the show...
First of all, I run mono files on the 744t for mixing in post. I run the mics onstage and then into the 32 channel in house stage to sbd xlr snake (usually channels 31/32). At the sbd end, I take the xlrs for 31/32 and plug them into the 744t (sometimes with an external pre in front) as well as a stereo feed from the sbd.

When matrixing in Wavelab...
I like to distribute the stereo soundboard recording equally to both channels, basically creating a mono recording. This is why I opted to go with the hypercards with bass rolloff. I started thinking that because I have a 'full' sounding soundboard recording, I just need something to open it up a bit.

It's getting kinda late right now, so I'll elaborate a bit later, but has anybody else tried this. I'm recording primarily electric/rock concerts, with vocals, sometimes with horns.

-b

[NJFunk]

I have done lots of these.  The results have ranged from garbage to stellar.  It's tricky because you have to hope for the stage mix to blend well with the board feed in a situation where usually neither is particularly well balanced by itself, but when it does work, it can sound great.  My typical situation is in small bars where the "SBD" feed is usually just a PA that the band brings itself and has only vocals or just vocals and a touch of kick drum, and the rest of the electric instruments are coming from the stage amps.  In this situation, the PA mixer is on-stage, so I don't have to worry about running through a snake.  I just take the tape out from the PA mixer on stage and set up the mics right in front and run into my R-4.  Before I got the R-4, I was using a UA-5 to do it, but that is even more tricky because you have to mix on the fly.

I prefer to use cards in a near-coincident pattern at about 3'.   I like to make sure that the mics are set up at least 5 or 6 feet from the drum kit or else there ends up being too much drums inthe mix.  Exactly what configuration I use depends on the stage setup, but it's typically something fairly closed like DIN, but for wider stages, Ihave run ORTF with success as well.  For the shows that I do, I would never use bass rolloff because there is no bass in the PA, so if I roll it off on the mic feed, then I don't have any bass in the mix at all.  The PA feed I get is rarely stereo to start with, so I have no choice but to use a mono SBD feed.  I do like the results with a mono PA feed with only vocals plus the mic feed from stage though.  With a near coincident pattern right in front of the stage, you get a superb stereo image with the instruments panned right to left just as they were set up on stage.  The only problem with the stereo image is that sometimes there is a hole in the middle.  Adding a mono vocal track to the mix fills the hole in the middle with the vocals and gives you a very balanced final image.

A final trick that I have learned to improve the image is to delay the SBD feed a little.  Even with a stage recording, there is a little delay between the PA and mic feeds.  The delay is close to 1 ms/ft.  If the stage amps are about 6 or 7 ft from the mics, then the delay is about 7 ms.  If you just mix this, the human ear cannot detect that small of a delay and you will not hear any echo or any other funny artifact from the delay.  But another thing to remember is that if you hear the same sound from two different sources, your ear determines the direction of the sound from the first source it hears.  This phenomenon is true for very, very small delays and is the same principle that sound engineers use for Braodway plays (to make sure that your ear determines that an actor's voice on stage sounds like it is coming from on stage and not from the reinforcement speakers all over the theater...).  In this setting, if you delay the SBD feed by a little more than the actual delay between the SBD and mic feeds, then your ear will pick up the stereo image of the mic feed much better.  If you don't delay the SBD feed, then the SBD is "in front" of the mic feed and the recording will sound more "mono-ized".

Here is an example of a couple recent stage matrixes that I have done:

Wide stage ORTF:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-12-01-1644-Matrix

DIN, less wide stage:

http://www.archive.org/details/JHB2006-11-22-1644-Matrix

Good luck.

[gratefulphish]

I too have done a number of these, and am starting to do even more with my R-4 Pro.  I am running Stereo x 2, as opposed to mono x 4, just cuts down on some extra steps in post, unless you really need to adjust each individual channel regularly, which you can still do in stereo x 2.  I have found subcard to be my setting of choice on my TLM 170s for up close work.  Nice wide pickup and good imaging.  I would not use my bass rolloff.  If you need to do that later, you always can, but you can't really get it back if you record with it rolled off.  I personally find hypers, well, just too hyper for on-stage recording.  A lot of other things depend on the band setup, depth of stage, where you can plant your mics etc.  Yes, you want to avoid setting up a few feet from the drum kit.  When I can, I sometimes split my mics to either side.  This is really a band-by-band, venue-by-venue type of decision.  No one here can give you a hard and fast answer without knowing exactly what you are dealing with.  In the end, it is always what you like.  You know your band, and the room, and know whether you have a quality representative recording.  As NJFunk also noted, every matrix like this will also be somewhat dictated by the board, what is getting mixed into it, and the need to delay it by just a few ms. so that it lines up with the mics, or as he suggested, even comes a ms or two after.  Sometimes, if I know I am going to be taping a band, and want to make sure that I am going to get what I want, I go see some other band I care less about at the same place first, and experiment with different settings and placement.

[NJFunk]

Another thing to consider is the placement of the mics relative to the stage monitors.  Typically, you will NOT want to pick up the stage monitors in your mics.  I like to try to keep the mic feed as "clean" as possible with just drums and the instrument amps on stage.  The stage monitors typically contain mostly vocals and sometimes other stuff that the musicians want to hear, but whatever is in there should also be prominent in your SBD feed as well.  When you are recording 4-track and mixing later, you want to separate the mixes as much as possible.  In other words, if you end up with mic feeds that have all the instruments and absolutely no vocals and a PA feed that has vocals only, you have more control over the final mix than if you have some vocals in the mic feed and some of the instruments in the PA feed.  Obviously, it's not possible to get two totally clean feeds, but I try to keep it as separated as possible.  Typically, you will end up with a PA/SBD feed that is vocal heavy even if you are in a bigger venue.  In that case, it is key to keep the vocals out of the mic feed as much as possible to get a better final mix, and that usually means avoiding the stage monitors as much as possible.  The good thing is that stage monitors are often somewhat directional, so it's usually not too hard to avoid them bleeding heavily into the mic feed.

[gratefulphish]

Good point, should have mentioned that myself.  In general, unless it is a really deep stage, I try to be as far away as I can from the monitors, and the amps for that matter.  Remember, for practical recording purposes, just by being on-stage or front of stage, you are much closer to the music source than "usual."  One of the reasons that I suggested not using hypers, although, if you were previously setting up dead center, in front of a drum kit, and getting way too much drums in the mix, hypers might help solve that.  Try splitting your mics with other patterns, and remember that mics do not HAVE to be placed dead center, and in many cases just should not be.

[krebsy]

Just curious, has anyone with a 4 track recorder tried their hand at an onstage M/S with SBD mix?  I'm using a UA-5 so my stage/board matrixes have to be mixed down on the fly.  As a result I've never tried it with M/S.  I have run just an M/S pair onstage for some instrumental bands, and I've loved the ability to adjust the image in post.  It seems like it could be incredibly versatile to have that control to fine tune the mix with a SBD.  Of course it does mean more mixing.   

[baustin]

luckily in my situation everything is always mic'd through a permanent in house soundboard and 9/10 times the board is run by the same person.

here is my recent endeavor, tishamingo 02-03-2007. i'm very happy with the results: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=504006

[Patrick]

Just curious, has anyone with a 4 track recorder tried their hand at an onstage M/S with SBD mix?  I'm using a UA-5 so my stage/board matrixes have to be mixed down on the fly.  As a result I've never tried it with M/S.  I have run just an M/S pair onstage for some instrumental bands, and I've loved the ability to adjust the image in post.  It seems like it could be incredibly versatile to have that control to fine tune the mix with a SBD.  Of course it does mean more mixing.   

Yes, me and jimmyrow did this at the Duo show in Asheville last October.

I run onstage all of the time.  I love the way it sounds, it's very refreshing to record music from the source, and not from a P.A. system.  The natural mix of the instruments from a certain point onstage can absolutely put a FOB tape to shame depending on the band and the stage setup.

I can't wait to get an r4 so I can run 4 channels without having to bring 2 decks, and synch them up in post-production

[gratefulphish]

I run onstage all of the time.  I love the way it sounds, it's very refreshing to record music from the source, and not from a P.A. system.  The natural mix of the instruments from a certain point onstage can absolutely put a FOB tape to shame depending on the band and the stage setup.

I can't wait to get an r4 so I can run 4 channels without having to bring 2 decks, and synch them up in post-production

Boy, you must have missed this "war-zone" of a thread. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76905.0.html

[NJFunk]

I run onstage all of the time.  I love the way it sounds, it's very refreshing to record music from the source, and not from a P.A. system.  The natural mix of the instruments from a certain point onstage can absolutely put a FOB tape to shame depending on the band and the stage setup.

I can't wait to get an r4 so I can run 4 channels without having to bring 2 decks, and synch them up in post-production

Boy, you must have missed this "war-zone" of a thread. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76905.0.html

Yeah, that wasteland is mostly my doing, and I apologize for that.  When someone says something that is both inflammatory and wrong and then (when called out for it) tries to act like they're actually saying something that's perfectly reasonable and have been all along, I have a hard time letting that go unchallenged.  You can call it stubborn or childish or whatever, and you probably wouldn't be wrong, but Chris eventually admitted he was wrong to start with it in the first place, though, and that's good enough for me.

[darby]

I run onstage all of the time.  I love the way it sounds, it's very refreshing to record music from the source, and not from a P.A. system.  The natural mix of the instruments from a certain point onstage can absolutely put a FOB tape to shame depending on the band and the stage setup.

I can't wait to get an r4 so I can run 4 channels without having to bring 2 decks, and synch them up in post-production

Boy, you must have missed this "war-zone" of a thread. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76905.0.html

Yeah, that wasteland is mostly my doing, and I apologize for that.  When someone says something that is both inflammatory and wrong and then (when called out for it) tries to act like they're actually saying something that's perfectly reasonable and have been all along, I have a hard time letting that go unchallenged.  You can call it stubborn or childish or whatever, and you probably wouldn't be wrong, but Chris eventually admitted he was wrong to start with it in the first place, though, and that's good enough for me.

please don't even go there again
we all have OPINIONS and everybody should RESPECT that
I like to hear what everyone has to say_ I might learn something (T+'s)

[Patrick]

I run onstage all of the time.  I love the way it sounds, it's very refreshing to record music from the source, and not from a P.A. system.  The natural mix of the instruments from a certain point onstage can absolutely put a FOB tape to shame depending on the band and the stage setup.

I can't wait to get an r4 so I can run 4 channels without having to bring 2 decks, and synch them up in post-production

Boy, you must have missed this "war-zone" of a thread. http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,76905.0.html

Holy shit!  How did I miss that?  I'm amazed I was not right in the middle of the argument. 

I respectfully disagree with most of the sentiments from Chris in that thread.  In a small/medium sized club setting (which is where I tape the most), if it doesn't sound good onstage, there ain't nothing that the FOH guy can do to fix the mix. 

Garbage in = Garbage out

[poorlyconditioned]

Has anyone tried adding reverb the soundboard source.

I typically record SBD + AUD FOB, maybe 10-20' from the stage.

I find if I just add the SBD + AUD (shifting the SBD over to line up), the image sounds wacky.  Like I "pasted" the board in there.  Adding reverb makes it sound more natural, or at least consistent.

I'll have to try the trick of delaying the SBD a bit more than the AUD though.  That sounds cool.

  Richard

[BayTaynt3d]

I've tried it, but don't usually like it much. Adding reverb to things like the bass and kick drum sometimes muddies things up more, and usually the AUD is all the reverb wet I need. That said, I've had instances where seemingly adding even the smallest amout of SBD just makes things worse for some reason. Hard to describe, but I've had a couple of occasions where I honestly felt the AUD by itself was better than any matrix I could make. I think it's been times when the AUD and the SBD both have the same type of balance, so adding more of the one just brings the balance that much more out of whack. But I do find that it is really important to get the AUD and SBD lined up really well.

[NJFunk]

Has anyone tried adding reverb the soundboard source.

I typically record SBD + AUD FOB, maybe 10-20' from the stage.

I find if I just add the SBD + AUD (shifting the SBD over to line up), the image sounds wacky.  Like I "pasted" the board in there.  Adding reverb makes it sound more natural, or at least consistent.

I'll have to try the trick of delaying the SBD a bit more than the AUD though.  That sounds cool.

  Richard

I've tried adding reverb to the SBD, but I wasn't too happy with the results, to be honest.  YMMV, though.