Topic: ADC comp: NJB3 v. D100 - wanna hear?

[Brian Skalinder]

Torrent attached, on STG tracker.

Obviously not scientific, but FWIW.


ADC comp: NJB3 v. D100

Playback gear:

Toshiba
smART DIO ADC >
Audio Experiences Symphonoies >
Adcom GFA-555
Magnepan MMGs / Pinnacle Babyboomer

Location: ~8' from speakers/sub, 4' up
Config: DIN (20cm, 90º)

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Source: MK4/KLY 250-2i > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (Lemosax) > D100
Conversion: D100 > Waveterminal 2496 (44.1k) > Audacity 1.0.0
Tracking: CD-Wave
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Lemosax at ~35 dB gain.
D100 set to line-in.
Rec level knob at 10.

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Source: MK4/KLY 250-2i > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (Lemosax) > NJB3
Conversion: NJB3 > FireConnect 4300 > Notmad Explorer > PC
.
Lemosax at ~50 dB gain.
NJB3 set to line-in.
Rec level at 0 dB.

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One of the above sources is source 1, the other source 2. I'll tell you after you tell me: which do you prefer? bskalinder[at]yahoo.com

Song for both tracks is Frank Zappa's "Dirty Love".

[zhianosatch]

hey, the lemosax works!

[Brian Skalinder]

Re-built and -upped the .torrent, someone please try again?

[Nick in Edinboro]

Brian your such a geek!  I love it!  Big +T, was this due to that conversation on njb3tapers today about the DAP1?

[Brian Skalinder]

was this due to that conversation on njb3tapers today about the DAP1?

That one and a couple others over here as well.  I plan to run a comp in the field, too, though I'll have to knock the rec level on the D100 down a fair amount.

[Brian Skalinder]

Anyone?  None of you stealthers are interested in how the NJB3 stacks up against a well respected stealthable line-in and ADC stage (M1/D100)?!?

[phishmarisol]

I preferred the second one...but both sounded good.

[dklein]

Hey Brian - after a few good blind tests, I think people are getting scared to lay it on the line.  Makes it difficult to justify spending lots of money  

Here's a copy of my post from the stg board...

I played both of these on my laptop speakers and they both sound like crap.  (just kidding)

Let me start by saying I had a tough time choosing. Mic'g a set of speakers is definitely a good way of simulating the actual usage of the gear, but at the same time, it doesn't provide the highest quality source, which is helpful in distinguishing the ADC characteristics. But if you can't hear the difference with the setup you use, then I suppose it is actually a more relevant comparison!

Source 2 is louder, which always throws things off as we tend to prefer the louder source. I tried to match amplitude on the 2 samples (not easy because the spread was not consistent - almost as if source 2 was slightly compressed), burned all of the versions to cd and listened on a pretty decent playback system.

If I had to lay it on the line, I'd say I like source 2 better, but it is really, really close. The transients seemed a little cleaner, but again, I couldn't seem to perfectly match up the volume levels (covering my ass here).

Don't know if test says the JB3 A>D is good or if the D100 isn't...but I certainly don't hear any justification for a DAT device that costs 3X as much. Does the D100 have a well regarded pre/A>D?

Later the same day, I did a similar test running line signals into the JB3 (0 dB line-in) and my stock UA-5 (which uses the same A>D chip as some well known expensive gear). I kept adjusting the input levels of the UA-5 and re-recording the UA-5>JB3 until I got something that was within 0.2dB of the line-in JB3 without having to adjust with software (destructive processing). Once again, I thought the JB3 sounded great. As long as your signal is hot enough (hi sensitivity mics or a pre-amp in front), IMO, the JB3 is a completely acceptable analog recording device for our little hobby.

[Brian Skalinder]

If you don't want to know which source is which, don't read further!!  My reply on STG with a minor edit near the end:

Originally posted by dklein Source 2 is louder, which always throws things off as we tend to prefer the louder source.  I tried to match amplitude on the 2 samples  (not easy because the spread was not consistent - almost as if source 2 was slightly compressed), burned all of the versions to cd and listened on a pretty decent playback system.

I had the same difficulty matching levels both post as well as while recording.  Not as easy as I thought it would be!

Don't know if test says the JB3 A>D is good or if the D100 isn't...but I certainly don't hear any justification for a DAT device that costs 3X as much.  Does the D100 have a well regarded pre/A>D?

The M1 and D100 share the same analog stage and ADC and are regarded well among portable (stealthable) DAT recorders.

I found source 1 smoother and more detailed throughout the range:  tighter more defined bass, better transition from mids to both highs and lows, and smoother highs, with broader dynamics and a more coherent soundstage.

Source 2 seemed exaggerated in the lows and highs resulting in a punchier sound.  I found the lows a bit muddier, the mids a little fuzzier over all, and the highs more strident.

But I'd bet a few bucks that most people would not be able to guess which is which!  Which says to me the NJB3 fares pretty well when using its internal ADC.  

SOURCES REVEALED BELOW...don't read if you don't want to know.
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Source 1 = D100
Source 2 = NJB3

All that said, I didn't find the differences staggering, but definitely noticable.  Based on this comp, I'd feel comfortable running a line-level signal into the NJB3 in the field if I wasn't interested in, couldn't afford, or didn't want to smuggle in while stealthing an outboard ADC.

As long as your signal is hot enough  (hi sensitivity mics or a pre-amp in front), IMO, the JB3 is a completely acceptable analog recording device for our little hobby.

My sentiments exactly.  Thanks for the input, David.

[dklein]

hmmm....110 views and only 8 responses...

[Brian Skalinder]

hmmm....110 views and only 8 responses...

Yeah, too bad.  Only 10 people d/led the comp.  Guess most folks aren't interested - though I figured there'd be more discussion given how popular the NJB3 is becoming and considering there are probably plenty of stealthers and newbies interested in the NJB3.  I'll leave the comp up for a while, anyway, in case there are some stragglers.

[zhianosatch]

dling again...

[nickgregory]

for feedback as to one person didnt download it....First, in most cases, I will use the Mod SBM1 for stealthing and I doubt the NJB3 is in that league, and Second, in the cases where I have to go really stealth and not be able to get the SBM1 in, the size/shape of the D100 will beat that NJB3 out every time imho.  And the excuse of tell them it is an MP3 player will not fly at most venues I go to....you will be told to take it back to the car.  The last reason is the D100 comes with this nifty remote that does a great job at showing levels, which is a weak point on the NJB3 in my opinion.  With the D100 I can pull out the remote LCD (about the size of a half dollar) and get a quick guage on my levels...really nice perk in my opinion...

That being said, I am sure that the NJB3 is a nice unit...too many people are using it for it not to work well....just not for my immediate application.

[sickrick43]

Didn't bother (even tho' I run a D-10 Pro & a JB3), because my mic's aren't stealthy and I hate the metering on the JB3 too much to use it without a pre w/meters.

Aside from those 2 factors    the JB3 is probably as good on the input a/d side as most other "stealthable" solutions.  The one thing that would make it SUPER STEALTH was if someone knew whether the REMOTE worked in record mode.  If it DID, and you could control the whole setup from a small wired remote, while everything else was in the jacket pocket/pouch/etc., THAT would really tip the scales.

Rick

[Arglebargle]

I'm at work so I can't download it but I'd be very interested to hear thoughts and opinions.

[shroominhumpy]

I went in blind and for my unrefined ears I liked source 1 better going from my Sound Blaster Mp3+>Onkyo Reciever>JBL speakers, but the difference was not staggering...For a guy like me with no cash, this is something great to keep in mind when I ditch my MD...This has actually got me considering doing that very thing...Ahhh the bliss of choices...someday I too will be a gear slut. I can see it now...

Jason

[BobW]

Thanks ! Good comp !

[radioboy1977]

sorry, brian.  i didn't check out the comparison because my rig is so friggin' huge i couldn't even begin to think about stealthing  plus i quit running DAT awhile ago.  but a big +T to you for all the technical stuff you do  you should have your own website or something!

[electroretard]

I am excited about the competition. sounds like its even through the responces. If i can get a d10 for about $300 I will get it, if not I will stick to the nomad.
I really would like to stealth better though , the jb3 is kinda  large to fool with during a show.

[Kindguy]

No crotching needed for the JB3. Everyone thinks it's a cd player not a recorder.

JB3 Team Bama tested & approved since 02.

 T+ Brian

[mattb]

I'm at work too. I'll try and grab these over the weekend, but I've already done a very informal test of my own.

My first JB3 recording outing was just feeding it an analog signal because  that's all I had. I think the recording sounds fine.

This does not however take into account the problems we occasionally hear people having with JB3 analog input where you can hear the drive spin up. If you happen to hit that during a quiet passage it could be a problem. That was one reason I got the AD-20 front end.

I'd be interested to hear a similar test using gain on the JB3 which seems to be where the problems stem from.

[Rick]

I'll have to take a listen when I get home. Going tapeless sounds nice, but off the top of my head I think the M1/D100  would still be preferred if your stealthing. I don't have experience with the JB3, but aren't level meters on the JB3 hard to see? And I would imagine adjusting the recording level would be MUCH easier with the M1/D100. Not to mention the M1/D100 seems like it would be easier to crotch.

Though if the sound isn't to far off, I just might have to pick up a JB3 for non-stealthing situations

[Sugarite]

To me, the difference between the NJB3 and DAT isn't a sound quality issue, it's a matter of accessibility.  I've recorded, mastered, and burned 50 hours of footage in one month (Sept 2002) using a NJB3.  A DAT rig would have required TWO MORE DAYS of transfer time, two days I didn't have, not to mention $250 in tapes and $30 in batteries, more than I paid for my NJB3.

To a frequent taper such as myself, the difference in sound quality is moot when the recording format prevents you from recording in the first place, especially when the sound quality difference is almost negligible.  I'd rather jam a Rode NT4 into a NJB3 and record twice as many shows than pay more to record less footage "better".

[weed2k]

can someone please rebuild the torrent or give me an alternative dowload source ?
orginal file: adc.jb3.d100.torrent

thx in advance

[Brian Skalinder]

can someone please rebuild the torrent or give me an alternative dowload source ?
orginal file: adc.jb3.d100.torrent

thx in advance

Here you go, rebuilt the torrent:

http://www.sharingthegroove.org/msgboard/attachment.php?s=&postid=566416

[hoobash]

I would like to hear this. I have been running mp2>ua5>jb3. I ran mp2>jb3 last week and it sounded pretty nice. Since I have been looking to downsize my rig I think its time for me to test the a/d stage in the ua5 verus the jb3

[Brian Skalinder]

Hoobash - if you're bandwidth challenged I can send a snail mail disc, otherwise...jump on the BT.  

[hoobash]

I get a rejected by tracker error. Not sure why

[hoobash]

I got it. Didnt realize I had a window open already downloading it. Dam multi tasking

[George]

have a window open, i'd like to hear this as well.

[silverbullet]

I've ran a couple of tests myself taping live music in bars. NMJ3 vs DAT vs MD. In short I preferred DAT then MD then NMJ3 but this was before the latest firmware for the NMJ3. The levels on the NMJ3 seem to work now and I don't clip my recordings as easily on the NMJ3. The main difference I seem to remember is better bass sound on the DAT. I've only done a couple of live recordings with the NMJ3 since the updated firmware and I'm pretty happy. The wav file looks normalized when graphed!? Most of it all shaved and linear, hardly any peaks and troughs. strange to me. Anyway, with the fast music transfer to computer via firewire I will be doing more NMJ3 recordings in bars but for big shows I'll bring my DAT or if I have to stealth it then a MD.

Nobody's had any problems bringing in a NMJ3 during a pat down check (looks like a cd player)

[Brian Skalinder]

The comparison is now available on tapers.org in the gear comparisons directory.