Topic: Ceiling Mount Considerations?

[wehideandseek]

Please humour my thrift-store mindset: Would any of these be sufficient to mount in two rooms that i don't often frequent, pull listenable tapes & wouldn't really be bummed if they got thrashed?
They'd be most likely run by two road-weary Zoom H4Ns.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174723487155

https://retrogearshop.com/products/shure-570s-pair

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126383203158

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/135000125517


ETA: Small capacity (150-300) shoebox like venues with hanging PAs (approx 25' apart with base of speakers approx 10' high). Plenty of mount options along weight-bearing beams approx 10' high running parallel to stage, approx 15' to 20' from stage)

Venue 1 (usually run ortf clamped upon on the curtain conduit directly above stage-lip, angled downwards; was thinking of centre-mounting at the second beam back from stage near disco ball, but could also mic the stacks):







Venue 2 (usually run just below the stuffed buffalo head, but thinking of mounting above it or again, at each side of PA):

[if_then_else]

Venue 2 (usually run just below the stuffed buffalo head, but thinking of mounting above it or again, at each side of PA):

It would be fun to abuse it for a binaural recording (as a dummy head).

[wehideandseek]

BiSon of a gun, that's a great idea!

Venue 2 (usually run just below the stuffed buffalo head, but thinking of mounting above it or again, at each side of PA):

It would be fun to abuse it for a binaural recording (as a dummy head).

[Gutbucket]

Ha! Love the binaural bison idea!  It already looks like it's listening intently.

Careful going above the bison head. Looks like that may be right around where high-frequency vertical coverage from the PA speakers is likely to drop off. 

As mentioned in the other recent thread about installed ceiling-hung mics, I feel a pair of spaced omnis, each placed in-line with the primary listening axis of the PA speaker on each side and hung something like 4'-10' out into room is the ideal setup for this type of installed arrangement.  You get excellent clarity by being on-axis and directly in front of each PA, and that PA content will be clear, SBD-like and perceptually centered.  You get as much or as little room ambiance as you want by adjusting how far out into the room the mics are from the PA (this is the main thing you may want to go back and tweak after the first few recordings).  The wide split will provide a big, open portrayal of the room sound along with a wide, diffuse portrayal of the audience, rendering specific audience contributions less intrusive.  And the mics will be close enough to the stage to capture some of the on-stage sound and live percussion transients.

You can run a typical near-spaced stereo pair most anywhere, but not this kind of setup.  To my way of thinking that make it a good situation to take advantage of the opportunity.

[wehideandseek]

+T/hanks Gut!

I'd love to read your opinion on the omnis linked above:


https://www.ebay.com/itm/174723487155

https://retrogearshop.com/products/shure-570s-pair

https://www.ebay.com/itm/126383203158

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/135000125517

Ha! Love the binaural bison idea!  It already looks like it's listening intently.

Careful going above the bison head. Looks like that may be right around where high-frequency vertical coverage from the PA speakers is likely to drop off. 

As mentioned in the other recent thread about installed ceiling-hung mics, I feel a pair of spaced omnis, each placed in-line with the primary listening axis of the PA speaker on each side and hung something like 4'-10' out into room is the ideal setup for this type of installed arrangement.  You get excellent clarity by being on-axis and directly in front of each PA, and that PA content will be clear, SBD-like and perceptually centered.  You get as much or as little room ambiance as you want by adjusting how far out into the room the mics are from the PA (this is the main thing you may want to go back and tweak after the first few recordings).  The wide split will provide a big, open portrayal of the room sound along with a wide, diffuse portrayal of the audience, rendering specific audience contributions less intrusive.  And the mics will be close enough to the stage to capture some of the on-stage sound and live percussion transients.

You can run a typical near-spaced stereo pair most anywhere, but you can't get away with that kind of setup everywhere.  Good situation to take advantage of this opportunity.

[Gutbucket]

^ I've not used or can recall hearing any of those specifically. 

But looking at the images and seeing their size I imagine the're likely to be somewhat directional in the highest frequency range, so you may want to make some effort to point them directly at the PA or toward the drum kit if possible.  However, don't let that stop you from trying hanging them from their own cables pointing straight down first, which will be the simplest to arrange and to manage.  If you decide you want to point them at the PA or drum kit, you then might play around with some coat hanger wire to bend up some little hangers to change the orientation of the mics if they are being hung from their own cables.  Same idea as the hangers for the little AT 853 mics which look like this -



The key to pointing the mic sideways using something like that is positioning the vertical cable part if it directly over the center of gravity of the mic. Biggest problem in using those is keeping the mic from rotating away from the direction you want it pointed as the cable relaxes with the mic hanging on it.  Might need to re-orient them a few times until the cables stretches out and relaxes sufficiently.  An alternative is securing the orientation using a monofilament fishing line guy wire to the rear or side but that's a PITA.  Another is hanging them from a rigid rod or tube rather than relying on the cable.

Whatever you do, make sure they're well secured and won't fall on someone below.  Keep in mind the effect of vibration over time.

[wehideandseek]

Thanks so very much for the time & consideration let alone wisdom & experience behind each of your replies Gut!

[wehideandseek]

Getting close to installing a stereo pair of AKG SE300B / CK91 in the first room pictured (run as PAS or ORTF).
I'd prefer the mount be as close to the underside of the beam as possible.
Is there such a thing as a 5/8" mic thread adapter or spigot that has, for lack of a better term, an elongated self-tapping screw / thread end?

Envisioning a longer version of this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/284333-REG/Manfrotto_MIBA_Female_3_8_to_5_8.html
Or this w/ a screw end: https://www.manfrotto.com/us-en/double-end-stud-1-4-20-3-8-adapter-spigot-013/

I could always slap one of these on to a large screw, but i want it to be more flush: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/546494-REG/Manfrotto_014_14_014_14_Rapid_Adapter.html

Here are the two bars i could sacrifice for such venue mounts:

[admkrk]

I might be misunderstanding, but wouldn't a simple ratchet strap work with the second mount?

[wehideandseek]

That's a good suggestion for something temp until i figure this out. Thanks!

ETA: perhaps even better for the Atlas bar as the shockmount screws off & would leave a natural recession for the strap...

[admkrk]

I did not look that close, but yea that one might be a better choice.

[illconditioned]

Here’s my first attempt.  Not bad for a $200 matched pair. 
https://archive.org/details/rb2024-01-10.InsideOut_s7

Great work! The main thing is get the mics up there, and keep recording.  People will thank you later when you can produce great tapes of memorable shows. I had the great fortune of having installed setups in two clubs in the past.  I didn't run them enough but always smile at the great tapes I got.

[wehideandseek]

Ill, can you kindly share the details of what / how you mounted & ran?

[vantheman]

I hung some omnis at an indoor festival this past weekend. The venue was a small 60x70 room with a 3 point Meyer PA system. I was able to hang 2 Line Audio OM1s about 8 feet in front of the left and right speakers. The venue folks knew where the sweet spots were, and they put them right there for me, in direct line with each PA. I was also able to get a mono direct output feed from the console.

I did some quick messing around with the first show using 3 tracks - omni left, omni right, and direct feed - hard panned to the left, right, and center. It sounded pretty good just like that but I thought I detected a little hole in the middle in terms of the audience noise. So for kicks at the last show I threw up my CM4s in XY at FOB pointed directly at the center PA. The CM4s were set back maybe 18 feet behind the omnis.

If you are interested I have 3 short samples - all 5 tracks mixed together, 3 tracks (just the sbd and omnis), and then just the omnis. I'm curious what you all have to say about the different mixes. As I am actively mixing this, the multitrack mixdowns have the different sources mixed to different levels. You may not detect much difference with and without the CM4s as they are not very strong in this mix, just a little bit to boost the center audience noise and play with the center SBD feed a little. I may not even need them at all. I would rather not post the samples openly here, so PM me and I will send you links to the samples.

I'm wondering how you all think about panning with the OM1s. Should they be hard panned, or can I bring them in a little if they need to play nicer with the SBD feed? Reason I ask is I've done some recording with the OM1s before using a mono SBD feed in the middle, and there's an occasional effect that's a little hard to describe in which what I think is happening is the SBD source becomes lower in volume than the omnis, so it sounds like the musical content in the center is getting wider, or bigger, but I think that's just the omnis taking over the mix at that moment in time. I wonder if there's anything to be done about that. I am on the lookout for an example of that in this mix and can produce a sample when I find one because I've heard it in passing.

[Gutbucket]

Was fun consulting with you on doing this and and I'm pleased to hear it worked out nicely for you.  I definitely would like to give it a listen, and will be able to say more once I do, but generally you'll want to keep wide spaced omnis hard panned unless there is no other good alternative to correcting an image distribution or a hole in the middle problem.  The reason why not is potential mono-compatibly problems.  Granted you are producing a stereo output not mono, but what panning the omnis toward center does is mix the two channels together somewhat.  If there is any audible mono compatibility problem, it will become increasingly apparent as the panning of both channels approaches center.  Both panned fully center produces a mono sum of the two channels.

One way to see if that is a problem would be to intentionally pan both to center (or otherwise sum both channels to mono) and listen to determine how it sounds.  If okay without problems - lacking only in stereo width when summed, there is no problem in panning each a little toward center as necessary, but of course doing so is going to make the stereo portrayal sound somewhat less wide.

If you can, send me a sample of all 5 sources (omnis, mono SBD, CM4 pair) and I'll play around with it a bit and get back to you.