Topic: Mixpre-6, M/S recording

[rippleish20]

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

 

[noahbickart]

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

Yup. Just record as "L" and "R" even though those are really "M" and "S."

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home. It's so easy to convert back and forth in software anyway.

[kindms]

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

i never mix M/S on the fly, always in post. I basically just try for similar levels and make sure no clipping and take the raw files in to audacity etc

[rippleish20]

I am interested in trying some M/S recording, most likely with a MK8 and MK41 to a Mixpre-6. I understand how to set up the microphones but I have no experience with the settings on the deck side. It appears I could link these two as a M/S pair and adjust the stereo width, but what I if just want to record "raw" and use a DAW to post process the width? Do you just record each channel as is?

Yup. Just record as "L" and "R" even though those are really "M" and "S."

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home. It's so easy to convert back and forth in software anyway.

Wait, so if I do the m/s channel linking live, I can still change the stereo width later?

[noahbickart]

of course, you can even adjust the ratio of m and s in recordings which weren't made in m/s

[rippleish20]

Thank you (both of you)

[Gutbucket]

Helps to always route your Mid mic into a Left or odd numbered input channel and your Side mic into a Right or even numbered channel, because that's the standard channel assignment for doing so and what mixing software and Mid/Side plugins will use.  You can fix that afterwards of course, but easier to get it right from the start.

Yes you can "re-adjust" the Mid/Side balance of a Left/Right recording - to some extent and with a few caveats:

1) The range of re-adjustment becomes more limited.  You can't get back what isn't there.  For instance- if you were to decode your Mid/Side pair to Left/Right at the input stage prior to recording and set the ratio to 100/0 or 0/100 so you were getting all Mid or all Side in your L/R recording, you cannot re-adjust again later, you'll only have all of one or the other in your Left/Right recording.  That's an extreme example, but any matrix setting other than straight 50/50 will sacrifice some signal-to-noise ratio in the lower channel which you can't get back.  Not a big issue but something to be aware of.

2) You can re-adjust the Mid/Side ratio of any stereo recording and this is the basis of a number of powerful mastering techniques.   However, listen carefully for phasing effects when doing so with non-coincidently mic'd recordings made using spacing between the microphones.  That shouldn't be a problem for coincident recordings (X/Y or Mid/Side) if the mics were setup so as to be truly coincident.

[Gutbucket]

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home.

Noah, can't you set the Mixpre-6 to do the Mid/Side to Left/Right conversion on it's headphone monitor or line-output?  I've not used a MixPre but have to imagine that Sound Device can do so, as most recorders which have a Mid/Side option allow you to place the converter prior to recording or on the outputs.  Both my Edirol R-44 and Tascam DR-680 can do that.  Doing so allows you to record the Mid and Side channels independently, while listening to the converted Left/Right output while recording or afterwards on directly playback from the machine, which allows you to play with the ratio and find the best setting while listening. 

More fun on the way home.

[rippleish20]

It appears you can do it via the headset settings. And I did read about the odd versus even channel notion. It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

[Gutbucket]

i never mix M/S on the fly, always in post. I basically just try for similar levels and make sure no clipping and take the raw files in to audacity etc.

That's pretty much what I do and is good recording procedure for maximizing the signal to tape (er, digitization).  Keep in mind that if you set your recording levels so that both Mid and Side have equal modulation (are peaking at the same levels) when you do the matrix later and dial in a 50/50 ratio, it's not really a 50/50 ratio but will be biased more towards Side than Mid.    That's because most recording situations will produce a higher peaking Mid signal than Side signal if the mic-sensitivities and recording levels are set identically.  If you record the Side signal with more level so its peaking the same as the Mid, you're starting out with more Side signal when you do the conversion.

But that doesn't matter if you are adjusting by ear and don't care what the ratio number you end up with. 

It only matters if you got it sounding good and wanted to try and use the same conversion ratio everytime without really listening to the later recordings.

[Gutbucket]

It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

You only need to do that if you are doing it the old-fashioned way converting through an analog mixing desk. The Mid/Side converter in the recorder, your mixing software, or plugin does that channel mul't and phase inversion thing for you.

Still, good to learn so you know what those things are actually doing under the hood.

[goodcooker]

It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

You only need to do that if you are doing it the old-fashioned way converting through an analog mixing desk. The Mid/Side converter in the recorder, your mixing software, or plugin does that channel mul't and phase inversion thing for you.

Still, good to learn so you know what those things are actually doing under the hood.

I haven't recorded M/S in a few years but I always did it the (new)old fashioned way. Put my L/R stereo file in Wavelab - copied the R channel, flipped the phase and panned, linked the gain and mix to taste for width. It only takes a minute...

[noahbickart]

I, however, like to record in m/s mode, so I can listen to the recording on the way home.

Noah, can't you set the Mixpre-6 to do the Mid/Side to Left/Right conversion on it's headphone monitor or line-output?

You can definitely do it over the headphone out, I'm actually not sure of the line out (which I tend to use in the car, though I could use the hp out, obviously.)

I know that the way I do it isn't the way it's "supposed" to be done, and I know that there might be some theoretical SN ratio advantage to recording in raw M/S over decoded L/R. What can I say? At 2am when I'm uploading the sources, I like the ease and speed of L/S stereo files when I load everything into the DAW, the plugin software makes adjusting the ratio so easy. (I've been using this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMTdeluxe/VUMTdeluxe.php)

[Gutbucket]

Practically it probably doesn't make much difference unless you saved it at an extreme setting.  Not a reason to change what's working for you.

[Gutbucket]

(I've been using this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMTdeluxe/VUMTdeluxe.php)

Interesting looking plugins, will have to check them out when I get my editing machine operational again. You're using the one you linked to for M/S re-adjustment?  The only part of the VUMT deluxe description which seems applicable is it's Mono Maker function for narrowing the stereo image below a certain frequency.  Does it also includes full range M/S adjustment capability which isn't mentioned there?  Or do you just crank up the threshold frequency of the Mono Maker to full range? And if so does the range of control allow widening as well as narrowing?

[rigpimp]

I record MS every time I run my mixpre6 and always run them as unlinked channels.  I have the CCM4 version to listen to on the way home and have my headphone output to do so.

[rippleish20]

I get the general idea but based on responses, is this correct?

If I  link the channels as linked m/s   the device would handle the flipped of the phase, etc on the spot. You then use one (the even number?) channel to adjust trim and the other channel to adjust stereo width. If I had a MK8 and a MK41 and wanted to record raw, I just keep them as separate channels and record normally as ISOs - yes? With this scenario I would then need to do the flipped of the phase, etc? Or does the DAW do it?

[noahbickart]

(I've been using this: https://klanghelm.com/contents/products/VUMTdeluxe/VUMTdeluxe.php)

Interesting looking plugins, will have to check them out when I get my editing machine operational again. You're using the one you linked to for M/S re-adjustment?  The only part of the VUMT deluxe description which seems applicable is it's Mono Maker function for narrowing the stereo image below a certain frequency.  Does it also includes full range M/S adjustment capability which isn't mentioned there?  Or do you just crank up the threshold frequency of the Mono Maker to full range? And if so does the range of control allow widening as well as narrowing?

If you look, you can see that you can toggle such that the L/R gain controls can be used as m/s. I'll attach a screenshot.

[noahbickart]

I get the general idea but based on responses, is this correct?

If I  link the channels as linked m/s   the device would handle the flipped of the phase, etc on the spot. You then use one (the even number?) channel to adjust trim and the other channel to adjust stereo width. If I had a MK8 and a MK41 and wanted to record raw, I just keep them as separate channels and record normally as ISOs - yes? With this scenario I would then need to do the flipped of the phase, etc? Or does the DAW do it?

If you link them as m/s, the machine does the decoding and records ISOs as L and R.

[rigpimp]

I get the general idea but based on responses, is this correct?

If I  link the channels as linked m/s   the device would handle the flipped of the phase, etc on the spot. You then use one (the even number?) channel to adjust trim and the other channel to adjust stereo width. If I had a MK8 and a MK41 and wanted to record raw, I just keep them as separate channels and record normally as ISOs - yes? With this scenario I would then need to do the flipped of the phase, etc? Or does the DAW do it?

If you link them as m/s, the machine does the decoding and records ISOs as L and R.

Noah are the ISOs still M and S or a mixed down version?

[noahbickart]

I get the general idea but based on responses, is this correct?

If I  link the channels as linked m/s   the device would handle the flipped of the phase, etc on the spot. You then use one (the even number?) channel to adjust trim and the other channel to adjust stereo width. If I had a MK8 and a MK41 and wanted to record raw, I just keep them as separate channels and record normally as ISOs - yes? With this scenario I would then need to do the flipped of the phase, etc? Or does the DAW do it?

If you link them as m/s, the machine does the decoding and records ISOs as L and R.

Noah are the ISOs still M and S or a mixed down version?

If you record “normally” the m and s are recorded as such. M in channel
1 and S in channel 2.

If you record in m/s mode the decoded l and r are recorded.

[rigpimp]

If you record “normally” the m and s are recorded as such. M in channel
1 and S in channel 2.

If you record in m/s mode the decoded l and r are recorded.

Thank you, that is why I record M to L and S to R and have not tried the M/S link yet.  Now I know not to.

[Gutbucket]

Ah now I see, thanks Noah.

If I had a MK8 and a MK41 and wanted to record raw, I just keep them as separate channels and record normally as ISOs - yes? With this scenario I would then need to do the flipped of the phase, etc? Or does the DAW do it?

If you aren't using the recorder's Mid/Side recording mode and record each channel directly, you'll record ISO Mid and Side channels.

The three primary options for converting from the ISO Mid and Side recorded channels are to-

1) Use the recorders Mid/Side playback or monitoring mode to listen to or otherwise output L/R.
2) Use a plugin or the built-in Mid/Side conversion features of a software editor to convert to L/R.
3) Use an analog mixing desk or software multitrack editor to manually convert to L/R by:
 Bringing up a copy of the raw Side channel in a second channel strip, inverting polarity on that channel, panning the non-inverted Side copy hard left and the polarity-inverted copy hard right, linking the two Side channel levels so their faders move in unison, bringing up the Mid channel on a third channel strip panned to center, and adjusting the Mid/Side ratio via the relative positions of the single Mid fader and the two linked-Side faders.

You only need to do the polarity-flip thing with the third option.

[rigpimp]

1) Use the recorders Mid/Side playback or monitoring mode to listen to or otherwise output L/R.

Does the MixPre-6 have a Mid-Side playback feature?  Where I record M to L and S to R and I can mix it for playback on the ride home?  If so this is news to me.

[kindms]

It appears you can do it via the headset settings. And I did read about the odd versus even channel notion. It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

I use this video ALL THE TIME because Ill confuse myself and hey I'm burnt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVOBRx7zGzw

Mid Side in Audacity

[rippleish20]

It appears you can do it via the headset settings. And I did read about the odd versus even channel notion. It also looks like if you just record the raw channels you have to do something like invert the phase of the side recording or something like that. I can see its going to take some learning...

I use this video ALL THE TIME because Ill confuse myself and hey I'm burnt!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVOBRx7zGzw

Mid Side in Audacity

Visuals help me as Im burnt also 

[Gutbucket]

1) Use the recorders Mid/Side playback or monitoring mode to listen to or otherwise output L/R.

Does the MixPre-6 have a Mid-Side playback feature?  Where I record M to L and S to R and I can mix it for playback on the ride home?  If so this is news to me.

Noah confirmed so via the headphone output, not sure about the line-out.  I'd imagine so as all other recorders I can think of which have a Mid/Side mode can do so.