Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: All About Ambisonics  (Read 6084 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
All About Ambisonics
« on: October 03, 2023, 11:08:37 AM »
Ambisonics Is About Much More Than Reproducing Soundfields

When people think about using an ambisonic microphone, they usually think of the one classical application for ambisonic microphones that's been used since the 1970s. That's using one ambisonic microphone to record everything going on acoustically at its position. Then we decode the recording to a speaker array (or headphones) for playback, reproducing the soundfield.

In recent years, "ambisonic recording" has broadened to include three more applications.
---

First, let's state a simple definition of ambisonic recording:

- Ambisonic recording is the process of capturing everything going on acoustically at a point-in-space in a way that preserves the spatial information. The spatial information is stored in a specific format.
The format is called "B-format." B-format allows us to determine where sounds are coming from.

B-format can provide different amounts of spatial resolution. The more resolution the description has in capturing the spatial information, the higher its  "order." For example, second-order ambisonic recording has more information about where sounds are coming from than first-order - it has greater spatial resolution.

First-order has greater resolution than zero-order. ("Zero-order" is an omnidirectional description, with no spatial information). Zero-order B-format uses one channel to store its spatial information. First-order B-format uses four channels. Second-order B-format uses nine channels. Higher orders use even more channels

Now back to our original topic: the three other applications of ambisonic recordings.
---

The second application is to use a single ambisonic microphone as a single "virtual microphone."

What's a "virtual microphone"?

Since an ambisonic recording ideally captures everything going on acoustically at a point-in-space, we can use that information to model -  in a computer - how any imaginary microphone would record that acoustic event. That imaginary microphone could have any conceivable pickup pattern. That imaginary modelled microphone is called a "virtual microphone."

The commonly used mono microphones we're all familiar with have a limited range of pickup patterns: omnidirectional, sub-cardioid, cardioid, super-cardioid, hyper-cardioid and figure-eight. Those are called "first-order directivity patterns."

A first-order ambisonic microphone has the spatial resolution to model any or all of the first-order directivity patterns. So a first-order ambisonic microphone can function as a virtual cardioid microphone. Or a virtual super-cardioid microphone. Or a virtual figure-eight microphone. All at the same time, from a single recording.

A second- (or higher-) order ambisonic microphone can model those common mono microphone pickup patterns even better than the best mono microphone. That's because they have much finer spatial resolution.

If you wanted even more spatial resolution than common mono microphones, and if your ambisonic microphone could capture that level of spatial detail, you could create virtual microphones with much more spatial resolution than the mono microphones we're so familiar with. These "second-order" (or "higher-order") ambisonic microphones could have tighter directivity and almost no backlobes. They would pick up sounds pretty much only in the directions we want, and almost nothing in the directions we don't want. They could be asymmetrical if we wanted. And they could potentially reject sounds coming from any desired angle.

So higher-order ambisonics allow us to synthesize types of microphones that we've never had before. It's very difficult to build them physically, so you'll never be able to buy a well-behaved second-order mono microphone. But it's pretty much trivial to make one (or as many as you want, each simultaneously pointed in different directions) - truly excellent ones - using higher-order ambisonics.

Using an ambisonic microphone as a virtual microphone has another very interesting application. Since an ambisonic microphone can be used as a single virtual mono microphone, we can use a bunch of them in spaced arrays. (Examples of common spaced arrays  are ORTF, ORTF-3D, Decca Tree, ESMA, Hamasaki square and cube, Fukada tree.) Since a well-designed-and-calibrated higher-order ambisonic microphone can have more stable directivity patterns and more extended frequency responses than traditional mono microphones, the spaced arrays perform better. And with higher-order ambisonic microphones placed around a space, you can interpolate between their output for 6-degrees of freedom walkarounds in Virtual Reality.
---

The third application of "ambisonic recording" is an elaboration of the second one: we can use  a single ambisonic microphone as a coincident array of virtual microphones. It's not necessarily intended to recreate a complete soundfield.

Just as mono microphones can be used in coincident arrays for stereo recording (e.g., Blumlein, X-Y), so can ambisonic virtual microphones. But where each of the mono microphones in a coincident array takes up real space and so can't create a truly coincident array (because the microphones are displaced in space from the array's theoretical center), ambisonic virtual microphones are truly coincident. For an ambisonic virtual microphone, the displacement of its capsules from the central point-in-space is mathematically compensated, so we end up with a truly coincident array. This results in much better performance than an array made with mono microphones.

So, for example, the world's finest Blumlein array uses a single higher-order ambisonic microphone (e.g., a Core Sound OctoMic). Its two orthogonal figure-eight patterns stay consistent across the frequency band, and the nulls stay deep and true.
---

And finally the fourth application is not about live recording at all, but rather the creation of spatial recordings in the studio using audio editing software, to be played back over speaker arrays or headphones. The original audio sources for the recording might be live recordings made with ambisonic microphones. Or they could use live recordings made with mono microphones and inserted into an ambisonic editing framework. Or they could be sounds created artificially - not live recordings.

What makes this fourth application "ambisonic" is that all of the sound sources end up in B-format, and can be decoded for spatial playback using the ambisonic process. The result when played back over speakers is potentially an accurate soundfield in space. And when played back over headphones, we hear that soundfield presented binaurally.
---

Summarizing, there are currently four applications of ambisonic recording:

1. Recording with a single ambisonic microphone and playing back over speakers or headphones to re-establish the recorded soundfield
2. Using an ambisonic microphone as a virtual microphone - alone or in spaced arrays
3. Using an ambisonic microphone as a coincident array of virtual microphones, often for stereo or binaural playback
4. Creating spatial recordings in the studio using B-format

---

Disclaimer: I own Core Sound, a manufacturer of ambisonic and binaural microphones.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 07:39:26 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2023, 04:33:18 PM »
Ambisonics For Live Concert Recording

A single ambisonic microphone can function as any coincident array of traditional mono microphones you can imagine. Place the single microphone where the sound is good. Hit "record".

Back in the studio, decide how many microphones you want to define, what their polar patterns should be, and in what directions they should point. Decode the original recording using those settings. The SPARTA Beamformer plugin is a good tool for this - it's a free download.

You can do this as many times as you want, each time defining a different mix of microphones, polar patterns and pointing angles. It takes only a very few minutes to define and make a new decode.

For example, you can decode to a Blumlein array (two crossed figure-8s rotated 45 degrees from the 0 degree angle). Or XY (two cardioids, or hypercardioids, spread to any angle you want). Or XCY, or XCY with auxiliary mics. Or all of these - a new decode takes just a few minutes.

You can also define playback for 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 (Atmos) or any speaker playback layout you want.

Or you can decode that same recording to binaural for playback over headphones, using a generic HRTF (e.g., a Neumann KU100 dummy head) or your own personal HRTF. The binaural recording will respond to a headtracker's outputs, allowing you to turn and tilt your head, and to hear correctly what you'd hear with that head rotation and tilt. So that works great with VR headsets.

What recorder will you need?

For a single first-order tetrahedral ambisonic microphone, you'll need a four channel recorder whose channels track in gain to 0.1 dB. A Zoom F8n Pro or a Sound Devices Mix Pre 10-II will handle two of those microphones. For a single second-order ambisonic microphone, those same recorders will do the job.

You'll also need a shock mount (like a Rycote INV-7) and a stand. And if the venue is windy, a windscreen.

If you plan on decoding to a spaced array like ORTF, you'll need two microphones.

For two first-order microphones, you'll need only eight channels, so the same two recorders will do the job.

For two second-order microphones, you'll need 16-channels. A Sound Devices Scorpio will do the job, or you can use two Zoom F8n Pros linked with a time-code BNC coaxial cable and synced from their menus.

All of these recording setups will easily fit in the usual bags.

---
Disclaimer: I own Core Sound, a manufacturer of ambisonic and binaural microphones.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 02:02:25 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2023, 06:41:46 PM »
Ambisionics! Its advanced multi-dimensional Mid/Side.

I look forward to discussion in this thread (upon my return from a trip next week). I'm a Tetramic user and relatively well versed in Ambisonics.

Summarizing, there are currently four applications of ambisonic recording:

1. Recording with a single ambisonic microphone and playing back over speakers or headphones to re-establish the recorded soundfield
2. Using an ambisonic microphone as a virtual microphone - alone or in spaced arrays
3. Using an ambisonic microphone as a coincident array of virtual microphones, often for stereo or binaural playback
4. Creating spatial recordings in the studio using B-format

A few comments on the list above-
#3. Is what members here at TS will be interested in for the most part.  That is essentially an advanced version of a stereo microphone used for X/Y or mid/side. An ambisonic microphone is arguably the ultimate single point stereo microphone and the ultimate learning tool to really understand coincident stereo mic'ing. This is the use for which I have gotten the most usage out of the Tetramic and the basis upon which I can recommended the Tetramic to other tapers. 
#1. Has been done by no tapers that I'm aware of, or anyone else I know personally.  I've been quite interested in doing so via a speaker array for over a decade, yet have still not done so as setting that up is a burden to entry that is more imposing than standard surround playback, and standard surround playback has historically gotten almost zero traction here at TS.  I can envision and would encourage tapers to try this over over headphones, even better with head tracking.  I've not tried this either yet, but it has a much lower barrier to entry.  In any case this is likely to represent a much smaller subset of tapers.
#2. I've done somewhat in combination with other mono microphones, and would like to experiment with more.  I can see a small subset of tapers maybe doing this. I've also given a lot of thought to the use of two or more ambisonic microphones in an array over the years, however I don't envision any tapers doing that.
#4. Is not microphone related but more of a post processing / mixing stage type of thing and in that way has some potential taper applications.

In addition to any discussion on ambisonics in general, I'm happy to answer questions about taper use of tetramic in particular.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
One of the nicest advantages of ambisonic recording is that a recording made with a single microphone can end up being played on many different playback configurations.

So a single recording made with a single ambisonic microphone can end up as a stereo track, or a 5.1, or 7.1, or a 7.1.4, or 24.2.8 for playback over speakers. Or it can be played back as fixed-head or headtracked binaural for headphones.

All you need is a single ambisonic microphone, a stand and a recorder.

For a first-order microphone, you'll need a four track recorder. For improved spatial precision and accuracy, you'd use a second-order microphone and an eight channel recorder (e.g., a Zoom F8n Pro or a Sound Devices MixPre-10 II).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2023, 09:57:28 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2023, 07:49:14 PM »
Accommodating multiple playback configurations has always been important in my multichannel microphone arrays.  And I do consider using your Octo-mic > Zoom F8, mostly as a small single point recording system that can make for a very portable second rig.

But I'm yet to be convinced that single point ambisonics of less than 3rd order is the best route to quality multichannel playback.  Convenient yes, but my experience points to really needing time-of-arrival cues (spacing between microphones) for multichannel playback to really work well.  I've not had any experience with a 2nd order microphone however. 

Unfortunately, surround recording has never gotten much traction at TS.  Too bad because it works so incredibly well for live music recording playback. More so than most other forms of music IMHO.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline wforwumbo

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2023, 08:03:08 PM »
How does a co-located microphone capture difference in time of arrival information for binaural reproduction? The error in phase between the point source of microphone location and where either ear would be located from a binaural head-related transfer function induces a time- and phase-based distortion that cannot be recovered. Even assuming the source is a perfect plane wave and along the same frontal plane as the two theoretical HRTFs, there's going to be a nonlinear phase distortion from solving the wave equation that cannot be compensated practically, and theoretically that filter is huge.

And if there is no phase compensation, then the phase distortion is multiplicative between the time/phase distortion of the ambisonic microphone, and that of the HRTF from not being in the same location. It pops out of the dot product projection of placing the ambisonic mic on the head-related transfer function filter...

I am skeptical that an ambisonic microphone can capture the information needed for binaural playback.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2; 2x Schoeps mk21; 2x Schoeps mk4
4x Schoeps cmc5; 4x Schoeps KC5
Nbob KCY; Naiant 48v PFA
Sonosax SX-M2D2
Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2023, 03:07:29 PM »
^ I've not used it but Harpex is spoken of favorably for rendering B-format to various playback formats and mic'ing emulations, including binaural and spaced pairs. I'm unsure how exactly they do the binarual and spaced pair transcoding, both of which involve time/phase relationships not captured by a single ambisonic microphone.  Here's a link to a couple technical papers hosted at the Harpex website which may cover some of the concerns you raise above: https://harpex.net/documentation.html  I've not yet read either in depth, but the abstract and conclusions are copied below.


HIGH ANGULAR RESOLUTION PLANE WAVE EXPANSION - Svein Berge, Natasha Barrett, 2nd International Symposium on Ambisonics and Spherical Acoustics, May 6-7, 2010, Paris

Abstract:
First-order ambisonics suffers from low angular resolution and a small sweet spot, and decoding to many loudspeakers does not help. Parametric decoding methods solve this problem ,at the risk of introducing audible artifacts. A method for high angular resolution plane wave expansion (HARPEX) is proposed, which combines the spatial sharpness of parametric methods with the physical correctness of linear decoding without introducing audible artifacts. In a formal listening test, a decoder using this method to decode first-order B-format signals scores much higher than max rE decoding of the same signals, and similarly to max rE decoding of third-order versions of the same signals.

6. Conclusion:
The proposed method provides a means for playing back first order material over large loudspeaker setups with improved spatial definition and a much larger sweet spot than is possible with the other method that was tested. Surprisingly good results were achieved over a 5.0 setup compared an eight-loudspeaker setup. The artifacts that are audible in a straight forward decoder using HARPEX can be suppressed to safely inaudible levels without giving up noticeable amounts of sharpness in the auditory scene.



A NEW METHOD FOR B-FORMAT TO BINAURAL TRANSCODING - Svein Berge∗, Natasha Barrett, AES 40th international conference, Tokyo, October 8–10, 2010

Abstract:
A frequency-domain parametric method for transcoding first-order B-format signals to a binaural format is introduced. The method provides better spatial sharpness than linear methods allow. A high angular resolution plane wave decomposition of the B-format establishes two independent direction estimates per time/frequency bin. This alleviates the requirement that the sound sources in a mix are W-disjoint orthogonal, implicit in previous nonlinear methods. The characteristics and causes of audible artifacts are discussed. Methods are introduced that suppress the different types of artifacts. A listening test is presented that ranks the sound quality of the method between third-order and fifth-order linear ambisonics systems.

6 Other observations:
The following observations are based on the authors’ own listening. The material used were the 208 sound files currently available at the Ambisonia website[2], Angelo Farina’s simultaneous binaural and B-format recordings[7] and our own field recordings and synthesized sound scenes. In informal blind testing, using the few available instances of simultaneous B-format and binaural recording techniques, the proposed method seems to provide binaural audio of similar quality to dummy head recordings. Without smoothing or suppression of phase noise, two classes of artifacts become apparent. Most prominent are the artifacts related to filter dispersion. Sharp transients are transformed into noise bursts and intermittent ticking occurs at the frame period, as the contents of some frames wraparound the frame boundaries. Somewhat less noticeable are artifacts related to the time variation in filter coefficients. In combination with overlap-add processing, this gives rise to flutter.

7 Conclusions:
It is known that nonlinear transcoding from B-format to a binaural format provides better sharpness than first order linear transcoding. We have shown how the artifacts that arise from such processing can be suppressed and shown that the resulting sound quality ranks between third order and fifth order linear transcoding. When used in combination with well-known B-format recording techniques, this method provides an alternative to dummy-head recording, with the added advantage of Bformat transformations and tailor-made HRTFs.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2023, 06:02:50 PM »
Found this in the introduction of the first paper cited above, which doesn't go into what Harpex is doing yet explains how some phase information might be extracted.. presumably using the imperfect capsule coincidence of real world ambisonic microphones to advantage (my interpretation), by way of the positional offset between the directional channels, positioned on the surface of a sphere defined by the diameter of the capsule array, verses the W channel which is a sum of all directional channels and thus positioned virtually at the center of the sphere.

Previous work on sharpening the spatial image [3,4,5] has split the signal into frequency bands and used the short-time correlation between the W channel and each of the directional channels to calculate an estimate of the direction of arrival and “diffuseness” of the sound in each frequency band, which in turn has been used to steer part of the signal to the loudspeakers closest to that direction.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2023, 10:59:22 AM »
How does a co-located microphone capture difference in time of arrival information for binaural reproduction? ...

I am skeptical that an ambisonic microphone can capture the information needed for binaural playback.

When using a single ambisonic microphone, the latest binaural decoders use a variety of techniques. A good reference is the SPARTA AmbiBin plugin source code.

You can read about AmbiBin here: https://leomccormack.github.io/sparta-site/docs/plugins/sparta-suite/#ambibin
You can see the source code here: https://github.com/leomccormack/SPARTA
The latest research points to Magnitude Least Square (Mag LS) as the most effective process. I can attest that it's very good, though not perfect.

That said, I've found that Bilateral Ambisonics, using two ambisonic microphones spaced by ITD (around 14 cm) to provide superior binaural decoding, including headtracking.
You can read about that technique here:
  https://research.facebook.com/publications/binaural-reproduction-using-bilateral-ambisonics/
  https://sites.google.com/view/acousticslab/audio-material-for-bilateral-ambisonics-reproduction
 This is also a relevant and important paper:
  https://acta-acustica.edpsciences.org/articles/aacus/pdf/2022/01/aacus210029.pdf

Recording using Bilateral Ambisonics, and decoding with a personal HRTF and headtracking allowed me to experience, for the first time, a playback experience that fooled me into thinking it was real, for all 3-degrees-of-freedom rotation and tilt conditions. In addition to the Bilateral Ambisonics recording it requires a personal HRTF, a headtracker and calibrated/corrected headphones.

Bilateral ambisonics allows for true binaural realism with second-order (and higher-order) microphones.


 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2023, 01:03:16 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2023, 11:05:05 AM »
^ I've not used it but Harpex is spoken of favorably for rendering B-format to various playback formats and mic'ing emulations, including binaural and spaced pairs.

Harpex uses a parametric (i.e., non-linear) process to increase spatial precision and accuracy. When it works, it allows you to upmix lower order ambisonics to higher orders.

It breaks down when there are more than just a small number of simultaneous audio sources in the soundfield.

My experience using Harpex for creating an ORTF array (or other spaced array) from a single HOA microphone using plane wave decomposition and its parametric algorithm is that the results are not convincing; I got much better results using two spaced ambisonic microphones decoded to cardioids.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2023, 12:02:22 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline wforwumbo

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2023, 01:37:30 PM »
How does a co-located microphone capture difference in time of arrival information for binaural reproduction? ...

I am skeptical that an ambisonic microphone can capture the information needed for binaural playback.

When using a single ambisonic microphone, the latest binaural decoders use a variety of techniques. A good reference is the SPARTA AmbiBin plugin source code.

You can read about AmbiBin here: https://leomccormack.github.io/sparta-site/docs/plugins/sparta-suite/#ambibin
You can see the source code here: https://github.com/leomccormack/SPARTA
The latest research points to Magnitude Least Square (Mag LS) as the most effective process. I can attest that it's very good, though not perfect.

That said, I've found that Bilateral Ambisonics, using two ambisonic microphones spaced by ITD (around 14 cm) to provide superior binaural decoding, including headtracking.
You can read about that technique here:
  https://research.facebook.com/publications/binaural-reproduction-using-bilateral-ambisonics/
  https://sites.google.com/view/acousticslab/audio-material-for-bilateral-ambisonics-reproduction
 This is also a relevant and important paper:
  https://acta-acustica.edpsciences.org/articles/aacus/pdf/2022/01/aacus210029.pdf

Recording using Bilateral Ambisonics, and decoding with a personal HRTF and headtracking allowed me to experience, for the first time, a playback experience that fooled me into thinking it was real, for all 3-degrees-of-freedom rotation and tilt conditions. In addition to the Bilateral Ambisonics recording it requires a personal HRTF, a headtracker and calibrated/corrected headphones.

Bilateral ambisonics allows for true binaural realism with second-order (and higher-order) microphones.


 

NOW you are cooking with gas! Bilateral ambisonics... this is the sort of thing I'd be VERY interested in hearing, it's the obvious solution to adding time cue encoding to ambisonics, but I've never had access to more than one ambisonic mic, nor have I thought about having a deck with enough inputs to record that. Not to mention, there would be quite a bit of post processing... but it's a method I think has potential.

Out of curiosity, why did you pick 14 cm? That's a narrower than any between-the-ears distance I've ever seen cited in literature or in practice.

I've heard SPARTA, Harpex, and MLS approaches - all leave a lot to be desired. The spatial resamplers just compound the phase error induced by a single ambisonic mic, and those are aggressively bad to my ear.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2; 2x Schoeps mk21; 2x Schoeps mk4
4x Schoeps cmc5; 4x Schoeps KC5
Nbob KCY; Naiant 48v PFA
Sonosax SX-M2D2
Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2023, 06:35:46 PM »

NOW you are cooking with gas! Bilateral ambisonics... this is the sort of thing I'd be VERY interested in hearing, it's the obvious solution to adding time cue encoding to ambisonics, but I've never had access to more than one ambisonic mic, nor have I thought about having a deck with enough inputs to record that. Not to mention, there would be quite a bit of post processing... but it's a method I think has potential.

Out of curiosity, why did you pick 14 cm? That's a narrower than any between-the-ears distance I've ever seen cited in literature or in practice.

...

Here's a link to a Facebook post about Bilateral Ambisonics, with links to the raw 18-track B-format recording and two-channel decodes for Bilateral Ambisonics and ORTF with 14 cm separation.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0283Ttvwge2KsGSxr95owdbmkg6yLeCFVNa9RkjhqyZt2mUujZAfFzLEFtRVrWp85il&id=100057229368329

From that post, here's the link to the fixed-head Bilateral Ambisonics track:
https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZM1POVZNRiIgx17vu5ykvPuDhhR7F78j2fy
It uses AmbiBin's default HRTF data set.

If you'd like to compare it to a binaural decode using a single microphone, let me know and I'll decode one.

Here's the ORTF (14 cm) link:
https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZpnPOVZOAF4upvDWmFsYKVOQdQjOF1SHHl7&fbclid=IwAR2e-mNjtZc8G9wf9KKGfL-nB5po2zFDODmX6bgo8mgUmLh2cdxQlnXrEKI

I chose 14 cm because that's my ITD (the distance between my ears), and also because it's reasonably close to ORTF's 17 cm separation.

The post-processing is very simple and fast. I can describe it if you want, or you can see it in the Facebook post.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2023, 06:44:11 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2023, 07:01:21 PM »
Thanks Len.  In my surround recording and playback endeavors of live music, I've found time cues most desirable along the L/R axis (in combination with level cues), whereas along the the Front/Back axis level difference becomes of primary importance in order to maximally differentiate front and rear surround content and allow for sufficient surround level without the front image getting pulled around into rear.  A bit of time cue helps that on the Front/Back axis as well, but less is needed and if necessary a touch of delay can be applied without causing problems.  This was recording using non-ambisonic multichannel microphone arrays and using speakers for playback, not rendering to binaural, however the bilateral ambisonics approach using two ambisonic microphones spaced along the L/R axis would seem to fit with this methodology.

Recording using Bilateral Ambisonics, and decoding with a personal HRTF and headtracking allowed me to experience, for the first time, a playback experience that fooled me into thinking it was real, for all 3-degrees-of-freedom rotation and tilt conditions. In addition to the Bilateral Ambisonics recording it requires a personal HRTF, a headtracker and calibrated/corrected headphones.

Bilateral ambisonics allows for true binaural realism with second-order (and higher-order) microphones.

That's encouraging to hear.  Was the source material recorded using two ambisonic microphones or more than two?  If two spaced laterally, how well was head-rotation handled at more extreme rotation angles away from the median plane? Did it become perceptually less robust at larger rotation angles as the lateral time cues approach zero?

Thanks for the links.  Looking forward to listening and reading further.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2023, 06:30:03 PM »
... Was the source material recorded using two ambisonic microphones or more than two?  If two spaced laterally, how well was head-rotation handled at more extreme rotation angles away from the median plane? Did it become perceptually less robust at larger rotation angles as the lateral time cues approach zero?

These files were recorded with two second-order ambisonic microphones spaced at 14 cm. We have other recordings made with a four microphone array that does ORTF-3D more accurately than the ORTF-3D array from another manufacturer. It's also considerably less expensive.

There are at least two approaches to doing headtracking rotations with Bilateral Ambisonics. The simpler one (which I used) was to rotate the soundfields of the two microphones in-place, and not rotate the complete head. Essentially for this approach, the ears rotate in-place. That preserves the ITD even for extreme rotations. My perception is that the approach is a good one.

In addition to decoding to binaural with headtracking, as you'd expect, this recording can also be decoded to ORTF and every coincident array that you can imagine, including Blumlein, XY, XCY, XCY with spot mics, 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 and many others. Each new decode takes just a few minutes.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 07:48:16 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2023, 10:06:38 AM »
Streaming Ambisonics For Headtracked Binaural Playback

Did you know that one manufacturer offers an A- to B-format encoder that has a very, very low (2- to 3- millisecond) latency?

That makes it possible to stream real-time headtracked binaural to your listeners.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2023, 09:50:12 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline fotoralf.be

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 173
  • Gender: Male
    • fotoralf.be
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2023, 03:10:13 PM »

Did you know that one manufacturer offers an A- to B-format encoder that has a very, very low (2- to 3- millisecond) latency?

Who ist it?

Ralf
Photography and industrial audioscapes from Western Europe. - Sound examples: http://aporee.org/maps/projects/fotoralf - Blog (German): http://the-real-fotoralf.blogspot.com

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2023, 05:01:49 PM »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2023, 06:25:13 PM »
Yesterday I recorded a large community choir with two higher order ambisonic mics spaced by 17 cm. I decoded the recording in post to a large number of different microphone configurations including ORTF, Blumlein, XY, XCY, binaural, bilateral ambisonics, LR with a few different angles and polar patterns, and LCR again with a few different angles and polar patterns.

I settled on LCR with 130° spacing and first order hypercardioids. It took about an hour to go through all of the possible decodes. Each decode took about 2 minutes to set up.

I recorded 16 channels with a Millennia Media HV-316 and a JoeCo BBR64-Dante.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 04:03:10 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2023, 03:06:11 PM »
Streaming Ambisonics For Headtracked Binaural Playback

Did you know that one manufacturer offers an A- to B-format encoder that has a very, very low (2- to 3- millisecond) latency?

That makes it possible to stream real-time headtracked binaural to your listeners.

Does it use your calibration files or does it work well enough for streaming purposes without them?

If it doesn't use them, how good are the generic A-format to stereo/binaural? transcoders built into the Zoom and SoundDevices recorders, which I presume are intended for monitoring use?  I've never tried using that functionality of the F8 with TetraMic, partly because of the lack of applying the calibration corrections.  If decent enough that's one way of achieving very low latency 2-channel output without additional hardware or software, although without the headtracking.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2023, 11:34:50 PM »
Does it use your calibration files or does it work well enough for streaming purposes without them?

Yes, it uses the calibration files.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 11:42:51 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2023, 06:03:21 AM »
Thank you for this topic! I also have an ambisonic microphone. My goal is to try to use it with a spaced pair. I would like to use it for stereo playback and also for quadrophonic playback. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to record and haven't tried the ambisonic yet. Hopefully I'll get around to it around Christmas and be able to write more.

But what I can advise a little about is a quadrophonic playback for those who do not have a surround system. We can easily extend our good stereo playback to quadrophonic. Nowadays, it is very easy and affordable. It is possible to buy a second pair of speakers and an amplifier in the yard sale. I recommend passive speakers and an amplifier that has a remote control. You can then easily change the levels of the rear speakers while listening. As a player, I bought a raspberry pi (I installed moode player on it) and usb soundcard that have line out for surround (eg. Xonar U7 or Motu M4).

The quadrophonic system is interesting for us, the audience tapers. It is simple - we are adjusting only the volume ratio of the front and rear speakers. And it can expand our recording capabilities. There are surround recordings on LMA. Many recordings are made as a matrix (e.g. GD). Soundboard goes to the front speakers, audience goes to the rear speakers. It's an interesting listen and quadraphonic gives us the freedom to change the sbd/aud ratio. I also found audience recordings there that were made specifically for surround (John Mayer). I have to admit, I was very impressed with it. But beware, Gutbucket also mentioned this on TS before, surround recording requires completely different mics setup and configurations than for stereo.

I'm quite curious when I use an ambisonic mic to see what the quadrophonic playback results will be like. I suspect that the time difference is important. Maybe an additional huge spaced pair could help a little bit. I will let you know when I manage to make the first attempts.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 06:29:41 AM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2023, 12:07:17 PM »
^In addition to trying a 4-channel quad decode from your ambisonic mic alone, try a 2-channel stereo decode from the ambisonic mic routed to the front speaker pair and route the spaced pair to the rear speakers.  Spaced omnis work well for that and they doesn't have to be positioned super wide.  If using a directional spaced pair, point them to the rear or sides rather than forward, else you'll get too much front image blurring into the rear and in order to avoid that you won't be able to bring up the rear level as much as would otherwise be desirable.  Even omnis will often pickup a bit too much front content, so best to orient them in the same way when the intent is feeding surround channels.  A bit of delay to the rears can help with this too, not enough to be audible as such, just enough to keep the front image in front while allowing a bit more level in back.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2023, 02:51:12 PM »
Thank you for your tips, I'll definitely give it a try. I also thought about the delay. I understand when the delay is small (no echo yet), the delayed source will disturb less the main pair. Then I can amplify the delayed source more in the rear speakers.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2023, 03:09:41 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2023, 04:45:42 PM »
Yes, a relatively short delay applied to the rear channels leverages the Hass effect to help perceptually keep the front image in front even though there is significant acoustic cross-talk from the front into the rear microphone channels.  Use just enough delay to help keep the front image in front without causing a perceivable echo, as short as possible to be effective, no more than 20-30ms.  EQing the rear channel signals carefully can also help.

That works for music playback in surround because other than specific audience noises and other specific random noises, there is no so much significant direct imaging content happening outside of the front quadrant, its mostly reverberant content, non-specifically distributed applause and general audience reaction around the sides and back which a touch of delay won't upset.  That stuff doesn't have to image in specific positions so much as just being in the correct general location.

The other thing you might try is starting with a quad decode from the ambisonic microphone to the four playback speakers, and mixing in a bit of the spaced microphone pair to both the front and rear speaker pairs to improve immersiveness.  Delay the portion sent to the rears a bit to keep the front image in front.

Better yet, if you have an addition pair of speakers and amp channels, place them to either side of the listening position and route the spaced pair just to them, with the quad decode from the ambisonic microphone feeding the front and back pairs.  You then get the good immersive quality of the spaced pair from the side speakers which are best positioned to convey that, and direct imaging of the ambisonic quad arrangement with increased front/back differentiation, all with less potential conflict as each signal is routed to its own playback speaker.  Can delay the spaced pair if necessary but probably won't need to as the image shift toward the side-positioned speakers will mostly just make the image wider rather than pulling it too far into the rears.

Fun stuff.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2023, 05:07:29 PM »
There are surround recordings on LMA. Many recordings are made as a matrix (e.g. GD). Soundboard goes to the front speakers, audience goes to the rear speakers. It's an interesting listen and quadraphonic gives us the freedom to change the sbd/aud ratio. I also found audience recordings there that were made specifically for surround (John Mayer). I have to admit, I was very impressed with it.

I've not head the recordings of John Mayer you mention that were specifically recorded for surround playback and should seek them out, but I don't currently have my surround playback system setup.  I did go listen to a bunch of matrix encoded (mostly DTS) GD, Dave Mathews and some Panic taper recordings years ago when I was working up my surround recording methods.  Most of them were produced as you mention with dry SBD routed to the front channels and AUD microphone recording routed to the rear channels.  Honestly I wasn't overly impressed playing those back in quad the intended way.  Too dry in front, AND too much front leakage in back from the forward facing microphones.  They are better used as you mention as a way to dial in your own SBD/AUD ratio (effecting the direct/reverberant-sound ratio) into 2-channel playback, or by physically repositioning the rear quad speakers with the AUD content in them up front, pointed away from the listener so as to flood the front of the room with that content while the front speakers project the dry SBD content back toward you.  That physically mixes them "in the room" so to speak and avoids the front/back differentiation problem.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2023, 01:12:07 PM »
Thank you Gutbucket! This is great inspiration. I am very happy to try it. At the end of the year I should go record a children's concert, I will try the ambisonic mic there. I will probably use it with the omni since they will ask me for a stereo recording. But then I'll play with the quad. I completely agree with you about sbd/aud surround recordings. Perhaps, apart from the choice of ratio, it had one more small advantage for me when compared with stereo matrix. It seemed to me that the optimal listening position has become larger. I'm a bit of a slob and I'm not always in the optimal place when listening. But it's just my subjective feeling, I haven't pay much attention to it.

John Mayer's surround recordings made a big impression on me. I think they show how much more options we have in audience recording. If anyone listens to it, please write, I will be glad if you confirm or deny it. I have to go back to those recordings and listen to it again. Unfortunately, I didn't give it much time back then.

Gd: https://archive.org/search?query=collection%3AGratefulDead+AND+NOT+collection%3Astream_only+surround+dts+
non Gd: https://archive.org/details/etree?query=%28%28surround+5.1%29+OR+%28surround+dts%29%29+AND+NOT+%28collection%3AGratefulDead%29
John Mayer: https://archive.org/details/etree?query=surround+John+Mayer

I'm looking forward to trying out the ambisonic mic for the quad. Hopefully it won't take me long time.
And what convinced me one hundred percent for the quad (unfortunately, it is no related to audience recording) was listening Miles Davis' Bitches Brew album.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2023, 01:24:36 PM by kuba e »

Offline wforwumbo

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 191
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2023, 07:24:32 AM »
To follow up here, I want to encourage tapers to try coincident mics in between a spaced AB pair. I’ve done this with subcards as the spaced pair and a mid side (which is a simplification of ambisonics in some ways) pair between them with great results. Both pairs need massaging but with patience and a good ear it can produce great results.

For proof of validation of the concept you can hear what the above method sounds like on stereo: phish.in/2019-08-31

I think ambisonics between a spaced pair has the potential to solve many issues i have with either format on their own. If another taper wants to give this a go, shoot me a PM and I’ll offer some insights into how I think the tapes can be made slicker.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2; 2x Schoeps mk21; 2x Schoeps mk4
4x Schoeps cmc5; 4x Schoeps KC5
Nbob KCY; Naiant 48v PFA
Sonosax SX-M2D2
Sound Devices Mixpre-6

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2023, 12:56:09 PM »
To follow up here, I want to encourage tapers to try coincident mics in between a spaced AB pair.
...
I think ambisonics between a spaced pair has the potential to solve many issues i have with either format on their own. If another taper wants to give this a go, shoot me a PM and I’ll offer some insights into how I think the tapes can be made slicker.

Ambisonic mics decoded to virtual microphones can replace - with better performance - traditional mono mics in AB pairs and other spaced arrays. And that's in addition to them being able to perform as any coincident array you can imagine.

(They do require more recording channels, but these days channels are inexpensive.)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2023, 01:43:33 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2023, 06:56:48 PM »
Many TS readers will be familiar with my common refrain here at TS of recommending a coincident pair in the center between a spaced pair (generally spaced around twice the typical distance one would use for just 2 spaced channels on their own) to tapers interested in trying a 4 channel microphone array with stereo playback as the end goal.  I feel that represents something of a sweet spot for the use of four microphone channels in keeping complexity and channel count reasonable while reaping a good share of the benefits that a multichannel array can provide for stereo concert playback.

To help tapers with that, I'm still working on a 4 channel "Improved PAS table", similar to the 2 channel Improved PAS table linked in my signature, which will suggest specific spacings based on the PAS angle. (FYI, the link to the OMT PDF in my signature is currently well out of date and is also being worked on, a new version of which includes this arrangement of a coincident pair between a spaced pair as the primary 4 channel OMT4 arrangement).  This is based more on "Stereo Zoom" methodology and the needs of "taping from various distances", and may vary somewhat from wforwumbo's primary concerns - although we have discussed and agree on the generalized underpinnings of both approaches.

An further extension of that arrangement to 6 recording channels, if 6 are available and acceptable, is to replace the center coincident pair with a 1st order ambisonic microphone that will use 4 channels of the 6, as wforwumbo mentions.  This arrangement retains the same coincident center plus spaced pair 3-point in space, while providing dramatically increased control of angle and pattern over the virtual forward-facing center coincident stereo-pair derived from the ambisonic microphone, and additionally allows for deriving a rear facing virtual microphone or coincident pair as well.  Its not overly complicated to add a pair of spaced omnis with the ambisonic microphone in the center.

Because its been many years since I explored this option (and quickly moved on to using multichannel near-spaced arrays in the center at the time, driven primarily by optimizing for surround playback specifically) any recordings you might make using this method that you wish share should help provide welcome data points, Kuba e.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2023, 07:05:09 PM »
Len raises a good point about the possibility of using ambisonic microphones in the spaced positions, although in doing that the channel count requirement grows quickly.  Extending the center coincident + spaced pair arrangement by using 1st order ambisonic microphone in all three positions would require 12 channels.  Used in the spaced positions to either side of a standard 2ch coincident pair in the center, 10 channels.  It is a very attractive proposition to be able to vary angle and pattern of the wide spaced positions on mixdown however, with full control over angle and pattern, and the ability to derive both front and rear-facing spaced pairs.

A more productive use for 8 channels might be a single ambisonic microphone in the center between a spaced pair of omnis with each omni configured as a Strauss-packet (a coincident 2ch arrangement of an omni and a forward facing fig-8).  That provides full ambisonic coincident center, along with choice of pattern and of pointing the spaced pair forward or backward (or both), lacking only fine angle adjustment over the spaced pair.  Maximal flexibility within a practical limit of 8 channels, while still retaining the basic 3-point arrangement of coincident center + spaced pair.

The all-ambisonic approach when limited to 8 channels would either be a spaced pair of 1st order ambisonic microphones, sampling 2-points in space (perhaps optimal for head-tracked binaural if limited to 8ch?), or a single higher spatial resolution 2nd order ambisonic microphone such as the OctoMic, which would be limited to sampling a single-point in space.

I currently sort of go the opposite way, using an 8ch OMT8 array primarily based on spacing, sampling 7 separate in space with the center position being a coincident Mid/Side pair.  I do have plans to try replacing 4 of those channels - the center Mid/Side and rear-facing near-spaced supercardioid pair - with the TetraMic in the center position at some point. 

Not sure about harder, but that should be smaller and faster.. will it also be better and stronger, Daftpunk?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2023, 09:59:44 AM »
Wforwumbo, thank you for the link to the recording (phish.in/2019-08-31). The recording sounds superb. I am very curious how you edited the coincident pair and the spaced pair in post. This could be an inspiration for anyone who has an ambisonic mic. But if you think it doesn't fit here, I'm happy to send you a pm.

Gutbucket, thank you for great explanation.

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2023, 10:49:41 PM »
Here's a recording of a ~50-voice community choir. It was recorded with two second-order ambisonic microphones, a top-tier mic pre, a 32-bit/96 kS digital recorder in a good-sounding room:

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZQxCoVZtkMLzou91OFRtBt4qiBz7h4wtXr7

The two microphones were spaced 14 cm.

In post-production, after experimentation to reproduce the spatials optimally, the two mics were decoded to three first-order hypercardioids angled at -65, 0 and +65 degrees. (The left mic was decoded to two virtual microphones.)
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2023, 01:16:44 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2023, 02:54:28 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?

The left second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated left 65 degrees. That same mic was also decoded to a first-order hypercardioid facing forward at 0 degrees.

The right second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated right 65 degrees.

And the entire recordings was first rotated left five degrees to correct for the slightly right-off-center location of the mic stand.
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2023, 12:27:59 AM »
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 12:40:05 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2023, 08:44:40 AM »
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.

They're independent virtual microphone decodes, so the polar patterns patterns are preserved. All three virtual microphones are really hypercardioids.

The left hypercardioid is only used in the left playback channel. The center virtual mic is mixed into both left and right channels. The right hypercardioid is used only in the right channel.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 08:46:19 AM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2023, 10:35:23 AM »
Yes, these are virtual hypercardios. But you mix them together. And here the mid/side principle applies. If you simply decode the ambisonic recording into left and right microphone with a slightly less directional pattern and with a smaller angle (the exact values depends on how much you mixed in the center microphone at 0 deg), you would get the same result. Even a little better result, because you avoid phase combing in the right channel, where are mixed two near spaced microphones.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 10:39:25 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2023, 07:53:47 PM »
If you combine the two hypercardioids in the left channel - one pointed left 65 degrees and one pointed straight ahead at 0 degrees - you don't get a supercardioid.

The same holds for the right channel.

The spacing between right and left gives the decorrelated spaciousness. The three hypercardioids give the spatial precision and accuracy.
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline roffels

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 428
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2023, 12:15:05 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

I think it sounds really nice. I get multitracks at this venue, but for this set, honestly I think the stage capture is perfectly fine on it's own. I'm looking forward to trying it FOB as well, hopefully doing a shoot out with my Neumann km140 pair to see if this can be my go-to mic

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2023, 12:38:43 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

What mic arrangement did you decode it to?
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline roffels

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 428
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2023, 04:48:21 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

What mic arrangement did you decode it to?

120 degrees cardioid I believe. The artists were all off center of the stage, in a traditional ortf arrangement or Healy, it would have been a left-heavy recording so being able to orient the mics in post was handy.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 04:50:02 PM by roffels »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2023, 06:51:19 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?
The left second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated left 65 degrees. That same mic was also decoded to a first-order hypercardioid facing forward at 0 degrees.

The right second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated right 65 degrees.

And the entire recordings was first rotated left five degrees to correct for the slightly right-off-center location of the mic stand.
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.

Kuba- Your thinking that the left stereo channel consists of a virtual pattern shaped something like a cardioid or supercardioid is along the correct lines.  However, depending on how it was mixed, the right stereo channel is likely something altogether different and far more complex.

Lets walk through it..
In this situation we have two physical, near-spaced ambisonic microphones (lets call them: mL, mR), from which three virtual microphone channels are being derived (vLl, vLc, vRr), which are being mixed down to a two-channel stereo output (Lt, Rt). I'll ignore the 5 degree rotational correction that was made.

The Left channel of the stereo output (Lt) consists of the sum of the two first-order virtual microphones (vLl + vLc) derived from the left ambisonic mic (Lm).  Because both of those virtual channels are being derived from the same physical microphone, they are fully coincident with no phase difference between them, and the virtual polar pattern which results from their sum will be a non-complex standard first-order pattern as well.  The shape of that combined pattern is going to be determined by the shape of the two individual patterns, the angle between them, their relative levels, and polarities.  We can take it one step further and break each pattern down into its fundamental omni and bidirectional components.

In this case, the two individual virtual patterns (vLl, vLc) are identical (hypercardioid) and their phase and polarity are also identical. Only the angle between them is different.. and perhaps their relative levels. 

If both virtual microphones were to share the same orientation angle, along with the same pattern, polarity, and level, the sum of the two would produce a combined virtual pattern with the same shape as the original virtual patterns, oriented in the same direction, yet with a 6dB increase in level.  If the two virtual hypercardioid microphones were instead oriented 180-degrees apart, their resulting sum would be an omni, with a decrease in level, the exact amount of which depends on how "hypercardioid" the pattern is. The omni components of the two virtual hypercardioids get summed (added together, since they have the same polarity) and the bidirectional vector components of each also get summed (subtracted and nulling out, as they have the same polarity yet are facing in opposing directions). 
^
From that we know that given a 65 degree angle between virtual microphones rather than 0 or 180 degrees, the pattern that results from the sum of Ll + Lc will be a shape that lies partway between the hypercardioid limit associated with 0 degrees and the omni limit associated with 180 degrees, we can't tell exactly because we don't know the relative levels at which they were mixed. But going further, since a cardioid is produced from the sum of omni and bidirectional components in equal amounts, we can assume the resulting pattern will be a shape that lies somewhere between hypercardioid and cardioid.. something cardioid or supercardioid-ish depending on levels.

The Right channel of the stereo output (Rt) is likely not nearly as simple!  I'm going to assume that during mixing the 0-degree forward facing virtual mic channel (vLc) was not routed hard left, but rather panned center in the stereo mix.. or somewhere close to center.  In other words,  it was routed more or less equally to Lt and Rt.  Len, if I'm mistaken about this please correct me.

If that is the case, like before both vRr and vLc are virtual hypercardoids with a 65 degree angle between them, except this time the two are no longer coincident but are instead spaced apart by 14cm, and that will produce a complex phase relationship above some threshold frequency which I won't bother to calculate. Below that frequency the pattern shape of the sum of the two virtual microphone channels will behave similarly to the Left stereo channel, except angled 65 degrees right rather than 65 degrees left.  Above that threshold frequency the pattern will be come complex, with peaks and nulls that form, shift and multiply with increasing frequency.. as does the pattern which results from the sum of any spaced pair.

But such is the nature of summing non-coincident mic channels. Not easy to analyze, but that doesn't mean it can't sound great if well managed. It's the way my arrays work whenever I mix them down to 2-channel stereo rather than routing the individual channels discretely to multiple speakers for playback in surround.  Many roads to Rome, and for music at least, the ear is the only compass that really matters.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2023, 09:43:34 AM »
Thank you Gutbucket, I totally agree.

The ability to create virtual microphones in ambisonics and mix them may confuse some. When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction. Mixing coincident microphones is nicely described in the mid/side theory, the basis of ambisonics. Here is a nice document where mid/side is explained with many examples:
https://sound-link.co.uk/docs/MS%20stereo%20-%20dooley%20&%20streicher.pdf

In this particular recording that Len is sharing with us, I slightly disagree with Gutbucket on one thing. It is a mistake to mix the left virtual microphone at 0 deg to the right channel. Comb filtering is created. It is much better to create a virtual microphone at 0 deg in the right microphone and mix it into the right channel. And if we do it this way, then we get back to that the resulting recording would be a near spaced pair of "supercardiods".

I know it's not the Len's recording, it was made by his customers. But it would be good to draw their attention to these two points mentioned here. It might help them a bit with the recording.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 10:38:27 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2023, 07:13:04 AM »
When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction.

I'm curious what you think is the resultant polar pattern in the left side of that recording, mixing two hypercards, at 65 and 0? Is it a smooth subcardioid, or does it have lobes with peaks and nulls? What does it look like? What does it sound like as a mono channel? And what polar patterns emerge when listened to with the right side (also mixed with the center hypercardioid)?

With a single ambisonic mic decoded to XCY (again with hypercards), with the C mixed into both X and Y, what accounts for the directivity that we hear?

And with three traditional mono coincident hypercardioid mics pointed at +/- 65 and 0, with the 0 mic mixed into both left and right, what accounts for what we hear as left, right and center? What is that center mic doing?

Finally, move the right traditional mono hypercard to the right 17 cm. Mix them the same way as the coincident mics. What's the result? How does it differ from the coincident version of the array?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 01:00:29 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2023, 09:02:14 PM »
Gutbucket explained it nicely. I add basic pictures and repeat Gutbucket's answer.

Examples of polar patterns are drawn in Figure 1. Each polar pattern can be decomposed into an omni component (a pressure component) and into a bi-directional component (a pressure gradient component). For example, cardiod has 50% omni and 50% bi-directional, see picture 2. And hypercardiod has 30% omni and 70% bi-directional.

So we can decompose each directional microphone into components omni and bi-directional. And when we mix two coincident microphones, we can simply mix their components and we have the result. We can do it purely graphically. The base is, when we add two identical omnis we get a double omni, see picture 3 (magnitude is in db, yellow line is +5db, double amplitude is +6db). The second base is the summation of two identical crossed bi-directional, see picture 4. Notice the red dots, that are the resulting maximum values. And from the graphic we can see that the resulting values are not twice as omni, but smaller.

And that's why if we mix two coincident crossed hypercardioids, we get a less directional pattern. The resulting omni component is double, but the bidirectional component is not double, it is smaller. How much smaller, it depends on the angle and mixing ratio. And also the resulting direction of the bidirectional component depends on the mixing ratio. When it's 50/50, the resulting direction is right in the middle. If one hypercardiod has a higher ratio, the resulting biddirection will point closer to it. If we mix two identical hypercardiods at an angle of 180° we get double omni, because bi-directional components are canceled. If we mix two identical hypercardiods at an angle of 0°, we get a double hypercardiod (+6db), omni and bi-directional components are doubled. And for example, ratio of 50/50 and an angle of +-30 deg give us approximately supercardiod at 0 deg. No math needed, just visualize it graphically.

Of course, the reality is a bit more complicated. But this model is very good and precise. Mid/side recording is built on it and if I understand correctly, also ambisonic of the first order.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 04:08:35 AM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2023, 11:27:00 AM »
^Mid/Side and ambisonics of any order.  Higher orders further extend the same basic relationship.  Mid/Side is sort of a sub-set of 1st order ambisonics, strongly constrained by the Mid pattern (W, and X channels are invariable, and no Z).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 11:58:02 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2023, 11:57:30 AM »
In the dialog above there are two things I'd like to go over. Both concern the relationship between theory and practice / mathematics and perception.

Len posed this question to Kuba e-
With a single ambisonic mic decoded to XCY (again with hypercards), with the C mixed into both X and Y, what accounts for the directivity that we hear?

And with three traditional mono coincident hypercardioid mics pointed at +/- 65 and 0, with the 0 mic mixed into both left and right, what accounts for what we hear as left, right and center? What is that center mic doing?

Theoretically these are identical.  But in practice it depends on how well matched and behaved the patterns of the hypercardioids and how coincident they really are with each other.  A well calibrated ambisonics mic potentially allows for significantly greater accuracy in this regard than traditional mono mics.

Quote
Finally, move the right traditional mono hypercard to the right 17 cm. Mix them the same way as the coincident mics. What's the result? How does it differ from the coincident version of the array?

In this particular recording that Len is sharing with us, I slightly disagree with Gutbucket on one thing. It is a mistake to mix the left virtual microphone at 0 deg to the right channel. Comb filtering is created. It is much better to create a virtual microphone at 0 deg in the right microphone and mix it into the right channel. And if we do it this way, then we get back to that the resulting recording would be a near spaced pair of "supercardiods".

In the end the only thing that matters for music reproduction is how it sounds and connects with the listener, not easy clean math or the presence or absence of comb-filtering.  Its our own listening perception that provides final approval, not the academic position of Stanley Lipschitz.  The issue you describe might be problematic, but determining if it really is or not takes a subjective listening judgement. I'd need to go back and listen again, and ideally compare that against the alternate method you propose (which makes a lot of sense), to honestly determine which approach works best. 

In part of my recording array I regularly mix 3 supercardioids angled -45°, 0°, and +45° and spaced about 12-15" apart from each other down to two channels with very good perceptual results.  Even though mixing that 0° center channel in with the Left and Right is quite likely to produce some comb-filtering, and the virtual patterns generated in the L and R sums are not going to be simple, clean, well-behaved first-order patterns, it sounds good and does so in a repeatably way, making it all good as far as I'm concerned.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 11:59:36 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Member
  • *
  • Posts: 381
    • Core Sound
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2023, 07:07:50 AM »
When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction.

That's true for mixing two orthogonally-placed first-order microphones, per M/S.

What happens when you have three or four, as in this case?

Previously I asked:

> With a single ambisonic mic decoded to XCY (again with hypercards), with the C mixed into both X and Y, what accounts for the directivity that we hear?
>
> And with three traditional mono coincident hypercardioid mics pointed at +/- 65 and 0, with the 0 mic mixed into both left and right, what accounts for what we hear as left, right and center? What is that center mic doing?
>
> Finally, move the right traditional mono hypercard to the right 17 cm. Mix them the same way as the coincident mics. What's the result? How does it differ from the coincident version of the array?

What do you think are the answers to these questions?

Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2023, 01:24:24 PM »
Len, I'm sorry, I didn't mean my posts in a bad, confrontational way. Maybe the misunderstanding was caused by the translator, I only speak basic English. I really appreciate that we have a professional here on the forum, a manufacturer of amibsonic microphones. I really like ambisonics and I think it is very useful especially for people here who do on stage/ stage lip or ambience recordings. And why do I personally like ambisonic? I always liked to play with the recording and try different options. And since in most cases, I don't have the option of a rehearsal before recording and the microphone placement is limited, ambisonic is perfect for me.

I'm an amateur taper and unfortunately I've hardly been recording now. Since I only record as a hobby, I'd rather leave this great discussion to Gutbucket and you. I hope Gutbucket will join. For me, this discussions is very inspiring. It is an opportunity for me to understand ambisonic in depth. Thank you and Gutbucket.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2023, 01:27:34 PM by kuba e »

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2023, 07:49:21 PM »
I'll take this up for Kuba e..

When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction.

That's true for mixing two orthogonally-placed first-order microphones, per M/S.

What happens when you have three or four, as in this case?

Essentially the same thing.  Assuming perfect coincidence, the specific first-order pattern produced and its orientation depends on the patterns, vector angles, signal levels, and polarities of the signals being mixed.  The two microphones needn't be orthogonal, and neither do more than two. We do need to know the vector angles but the microphones needn't be oriented 90-degrees to each other. Take the A-format to B-format translation as a four channel example.  Physically, A-Format is four cardioid patterns from which we can use relatively simple sum difference processing to produce B-format consisting of three orthogonal virtual bi-directional patterns and and omni (X,Y,Z, and W).. or any other combination of first order patterns that can be pointed in any direction.

Quote
Previously I asked:

> With a single ambisonic mic decoded to XCY (again with hypercards), with the C mixed into both X and Y, what accounts for the directivity that we hear?

Level differences in the Left and Right channels resulting from a virtual 1st order L/R coincident microphone pair.  The virtual polar pattern of the left channel is the result of the sum of the Left angled hypercard and the Center forward-pointed hypercard.  The angle between them is specified as 65 degrees, but their relative levels are not.  We know that the result will be a first order pattern somewhere toward the more cardioid side of hypercardioid, but to be more precise we'd need to know their relative levels. Assuming the L and R angled virtual hypercards have equal level, the Right channel will be a mirror image of the Left channel, except angled rightward rather than leftward.

Quote
> And with three traditional mono coincident hypercardioid mics pointed at +/- 65 and 0, with the 0 mic mixed into both left and right, what accounts for what we hear as left, right and center? What is that center mic doing?

Theoretically the same as the previous answer.  However because in the real word the three microphones cannot be arranged so as to be fully coincident, pattern consistency breaks down above a certain frequency corresponding to wavelength and the actual spacing between the capsules. Technically the same problem occurs in real world ambisonic microphone, yet because the capsules are arranged so as to be closer together, the threshold frequency at which this occurs is higher, and the errors (as messy as they are) manifest in a more symmetrically due to the geometrically-regular arrangement of the cardioid capsules on the faces of a tetrahedron.
 
Quote
> Finally, move the right traditional mono hypercard to the right 17 cm. Mix them the same way as the coincident mics. What's the result? How does it differ from the coincident version of the array?

The resulting directivity pattern will vary with frequency.  At low frequencies where the wavelength is long in comparison the the spacing between the microphones, the pattern will be similar to the rightward facing virtual pattern generated in the previous two examples.  At some midrange frequency where the relationship between wavlength and the spacing between microphones begins to become significant we'll begin see the virtual pattern begin to change shape.  As the frequency increases further we will begin to form deeper cancellation notches, then comb filtering with the teeth of the comb multiplying rapidly with increasing frequency.

This is exactly the same phenomena which occurs in both previous examples.  The important difference is that the spacing between microphone capsules in the third example has been made significantly larger, which causes the comb filtering to begin at a lower frequency where it is perceptually much more significant.  We can never escape this problem entirely, but we can seek to push it higher in frequency to where it is no longer perceptually significant.

This is why getting the microphone diaphragms as close together as possible is important for any coincident microphone technique, and why ambisonic microphones which have a tighter spacing between the four cardioid capsules are capable of generating well-defined virtual patterns the shapes of which remain accurate up to a higher frequency than one which uses a less tight spacing between microphone capsules.  Your Tetramic is superior to other ambisonic microphones by this measure.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline kuba e

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
  • Gender: Male
Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2023, 04:55:20 AM »
Thank you Gutbucket for the very nice explanation!

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.147 seconds with 75 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF