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Author Topic: usb or pcmia interface  (Read 7100 times)

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Offline Simp-Dawg

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2003, 01:53:33 PM »


also, USB does not give a true 24 bits.   hate to break it to ya folks but it's been proven.  marketing lies go a long way unfortunately.

there aren't really any devices i know of that do true 24bit recording...i believe you'd need a full 144db of dynamic range which nothing really has at this point that i'm aware of.  it's not just usb, unless you have some information to back that claim up.
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Offline tungstengruvsten

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2003, 02:29:22 PM »
The problem with USB is in relation to the low power source, not the generally accepted difference of the 24 bit digital theoretical limit(144dB)   and the real world of 110-120dB.

The best convertors i've used(mytek/benchmark/lavry) are up around 118dB which is f'ing impressive.


anyways, this from Dan Lavry - designer of some of the finest convertors ever:
-------------------------------
...In other words, 24 bits is not just about the digits we use. Some of
those digits are "just there doing nothing". It is like counting real money with 4 digits for cents. Instead of saying $1.27, we say $1.2700. The right 2 digits are always 00.

Now, lets go into the computers world, With 5V analog supply
environment, instead of the +/-15V above (equivalent to 30VDC). We
must reduce the signal range by about 6:1 and lose about 15.5dB in signal to noise...
Another 2.5 bits gone...

That too is a terribly optimistic picture. That 5V from the USB bus or
other port is so dirty, that by the time you clean it, you are
probably starting at 3.3VDC, not 5V... and you are entering the 16 bit performance world.  Do not feel bad. Most CD's are less than 16 bits in terms of signal to noise, and some of them are great sounding!

But, don't spend your money on BS hype. 24bit USB device for $200? You can not get real 24 bits for $200000. For reasonably low cost, you
will do very well to really achive 16 bits.
-------------------------------

Offline Simp-Dawg

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2003, 02:40:05 PM »
i must say that's the first reference i've ever read to the power supply having any effect on resolution.  not quite sure what to think about that.
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Offline MattD

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2003, 02:45:08 PM »
That assumes you're using the USB to power your device, doesn't it? It seems like most people going out there with USB devices like the Mini-Me or UA-5 have their own means of supplying DC power. The USB cable/ports are only being used to carry the signal. Isn't standard SPDIF 1 V p-p?

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Offline Simp-Dawg

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2003, 02:46:12 PM »
fwiw the usbpre i use is powered solely off the usb port.
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Offline mirth

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2003, 02:54:29 PM »
Maybe this is a limiting factor for bus-powered devices? We all know the UA-5 doesn't even power on with less than ~8V...
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Offline tungstengruvsten

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2003, 03:11:05 PM »
That assumes you're using the USB to power your device, doesn't it? It seems like most people going out there with USB devices like the Mini-Me or UA-5 have their own means of supplying DC power. The USB cable/ports are only being used to carry the signal. Isn't standard SPDIF 1 V p-p?

-Matt

not sure what everyone is running but I know lots of USB based ones that run off the USB power.

Also, spdif is a digital signal so it's voltage isn't really related.

Offline mirth

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2003, 03:12:31 PM »
How is USB NOT a digital signal?
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Offline tungstengruvsten

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2003, 04:13:08 PM »
uh, wasn't saying anything was or wasn't a digital signal, i was saying we're talking about the voltage supplying the convertors, not the output voltage swing of spdif.  Digital circuitry is perfectly fine at 5v, audio is not I guess is the distilled version of this...convertors are both, so they kinda sit in the middle.  Audio op-amps and circuitry reflect the input voltage in their amount of available headroom ie dynamic range.  That's why pro circuits use +/- 15 or 18v or the common one between Neve/Api/ most non-tube pre's is 24v DC.  

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2003, 04:54:23 PM »
i'm really lost here...can you help explain the signal path to me?  
what i'm getting is that with the limited voltage being supplied to, say, the usbpre, the analog circuits are not getting enough power to fully acheive the capability of the 24-bit a/d chip?  even at it's limited dynamic range?
i'm struggling here...
by the way here is info from usbpre.com on the power consumption
Quote
Powering:

USB bus powered, 3 stage soft-start meets USB hot-plugging power requirements
5 V, 100 mA max current drawn during enumeration
5 V, 250 mA quiescent current from USB port
5 V, 500 mA max current from USB port
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Offline Brian

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Re:usb or pcmia interface
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2003, 05:55:36 PM »


also, USB does not give a true 24 bits.   hate to break it to ya folks but it's been proven.  marketing lies go a long way unfortunately.

there aren't really any devices i know of that do true 24bit recording...i believe you'd need a full 144db of dynamic range which nothing really has at this point that i'm aware of.  it's not just usb, unless you have some information to back that claim up.

FWIW josh is right. When we all record at either 16 or 24 bit we really aren't recording at those EXACT bitrates. When recording at 16bit it is more like 14bit and when we record at 24bit it's more like 18bit even at the highest possible recording levels.

same thing goes with pixelation in digital cameras. whatever pixel value the camera says it is, divide that in half and that is your true pixel rate.

as tungsten said....all marketing lies unfortunately. here's to hoping for true 24bit one of these days!  8)

Brian

 

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