Topic: Taping outdoors with omnis, stack taping or FOB?

[newplanet7]

I am not saying don't go for omnis, just saying don't rule out cards.
I think we are on the same page. I am just not a fan of omni's unless they
can be optimally placed. IE onstage/lip, open FOB.
IMO when you wear them they don't sound like omnis should.

[aaronji]

So go with FOB stack taping, you then get both.  Stick the omni's thru the breathing holes in a baseball cap, dont have to worry about orientation of mic as they are omni. Black on Back, Hat and mic. get close to stack as you can. This will lessen the " feeling" and feel of the recording from far away. If you record from away; mics " pic" up the distance thus causing a distant sounding recording.   Also being close you can set levels low and allow the Band's sound aid in setting the levels. So if you are close and stacked, levels can be low because you only need so much to get a recording and when the levels are set low then the less you will  pick up  close crowd noise. The distance from sound source and levels are directly related.  closer to sound source lower your levels, thus less you pick up the crowd close to you. So more loud music is captured in relationship to the crowd around you when you are close to sound source and levels are set enough to capture the music while allowing some head room recording in 48khz. so you can add more " db" in post if you need to make music fuller and louder.
All in all its really what sound "you"really like.

I may be mistaken, but I don't think 48 kHz gives you additional headroom...

And ears are omni.

Sigh.

IMO when you wear them they don't sound like omnis should.

Definitely alters the pick-up pattern when you stick something like a head in between those omnis!  I find this to be true for cards too, incidentally...

[Fried Chicken Boy]

allowing some head room recording in 48khz. so you can add more " db" in post

I may be mistaken, but I don't think 48 kHz gives you additional headroom...

Don't know for sure but perhaps he means "24-bit" as opposed to "48kHz" for being able to dial up more clean gain above noise in post?

[F.O.Bean]

yeah 24bit gives you more headroom

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

This is an indoor show, done with omnis...  but it sounds really good...

http://db.etree.org/shn/97913

Terry

[F.O.Bean]

I always thought my CA-14 CARDS better than my CA14 OMNIS. But, as always, YMMV

[newplanet7]

This is an indoor show, done with omnis...  but it sounds really good...

http://db.etree.org/shn/97913

Terry

Once again. This is an open tape where omnis actually sound like omnis.

[Hypnocracy]

Ears are Pressure Transducers as are Omni microphones...but I think ears are directional or you wouldn't know from which direction the car was coming from when you are not looking....

 

[earmonger]

Ears pick up sound from in front of you and behind you at the same volume if the source volume and distance are the same. To me, this makes ears much  more like omnis than cardioids.  The ear doesn't reject sound from any direction.

But yes, each ear does sense directional information. And the subtle differences in signals reaching each ear also help us triangulate sound location even more precisely.

It's pretty fascinating, actually. There is some high-powered processing going on in the noggin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

[Gutbucket]

The overwhelming difference by far between microphones and ears is that the first is plugged into to a very simple machine which records fluctuating voltage levels and the second is inextricably connected to an unbelievably complex brain.  The differences are so vast simple comparisons with microphone directivities become nearly meaningless.

The ear doesn't reject sound from any direction.

Yet among innumerable other incredible audio tricks, the inseparable ear/brain to which the ear is connected has the ability to focus on particular sounds in any direction while ignoring others, something far beyond the capabilities of any microphone.  You are spot on about the complex processing going on good Mr. ear/brain-monger.

As for using omnis or cardioids to record outdoor music events, I think a good rule of thumb is giving preference to omnis whenever conditions allow for doing so, while keeping in mind there are many situations which may make using cardioids or supercardioids a better choice.  Hard to give a dogmatic answer to pin down those situations exactly, but therein lies the art of recording.

[aaronji]

Ears pick up sound from in front of you and behind you at the same volume if the source volume and distance are the same. To me, this makes ears much  more like omnis than cardioids.  The ear doesn't reject sound from any direction.

Whether or not sounds in front of and behind you are heard at the same volume is frequency dependent.  At 1 kHz that's basically true, but at 4 kHz, sound from behind you is attenuated by 4 or 5 dB.  Moreover, using that to suggest that ears are more like omnis neglects that the orientation of the "caps" in your ears is sideways facing, not forward facing. The on-axis response (sound coming directly from the right for your right ear) is minimally around 5 dB louder than sound coming from the opposite direction (sound coming directly from the left for your right ear).  That number can be much greater depending on frequency (~ 15 dB at 4 kHz).  And while the ear doesn't outright reject sound from any direction, it definitely attenuates sound from many directions.  Look at the polar plot I posted last time...Even the wiki you cited mentions that level differences are one way we perceive directionality.

That's talking from a purely physical standpoint.  Once you add in the post processing, well:

The overwhelming difference by far between microphones and ears is that the first is plugged into to a very simple machine which records fluctuating voltage levels and the second is inextricably connected to an unbelievably complex brain.  The differences are so vast simple comparisons with microphone directivities become nearly meaningless.

[earmonger]

Well, OK.

Human voices and the fundamental tones used in most music by most instruments are below 2K.

4K is between key 87 and key 88 of a piano.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Which is to say we most often perceive 4K as an overtone or a whistle. Or the last flourish of a Little Richard glissando. So the ear can afford to make that high register directional because it's not usually the main thing being communicated.

And it's still not being deliberately rejected. It's being attentuated.

We have pinnae. We have the head blocking some sounds between the two ears. We have one incredible processor dealing with all the differentials of information to be gleaned from about 6 inches of distance. Not arguing with any of that.

But I still hear sounds from behind me, loud and clear. Like that saber-toothed tiger rustling in the bushes outside the cave.  The cardioids might miss that, and evolution would have turned me into lunch.

So I'm with Gutbucket on omnis in general, cards for special cases.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

This is an indoor show, done with omnis...  but it sounds really good...

http://db.etree.org/shn/97913

Terry

Once again. This is an open tape where omnis actually sound like omnis.

???Not sure what you mean???

I was just pointing out that omni/stack taping can produce nice results...  The one I pointed out was indoors, but I think it make little difference when taping that close to the stacks.  I like the idea of running two different tapes, both the same rig, both omni @ stacks...  Sounds like a fun project!

Terry

[aaronji]

Well, OK.

Human voices and the fundamental tones used in most music by most instruments are below 2K.

4K is between key 87 and key 88 of a piano.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Which is to say we most often perceive 4K as an overtone or a whistle. Or the last flourish of a Little Richard glissando. So the ear can afford to make that high register directional because it's not usually the main thing being communicated.

Again, look at the polar pattern (http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=153520.msg1943529#msg1943529).  Even at 500 Hz, there is marked attenuation as you go from on-axis (90 degrees) to 0 or 180 degrees (~5 or 6 dB)...

And it's still not being deliberately rejected. It's being attentuated.

Yes, well, as per my last post:

And while the ear doesn't outright reject sound from any direction, it definitely attenuates sound from many directions.

We have pinnae. We have the head blocking some sounds between the two ears. We have one incredible processor dealing with all the differentials of information to be gleaned from about 6 inches of distance. Not arguing with any of that.

But I still hear sounds from behind me, loud and clear. Like that saber-toothed tiger rustling in the bushes outside the cave.  The cardioids might miss that, and evolution would have turned me into lunch.

Knocking down a bit of a straw man there, as I never claimed that ears were cardioid in nature, only that they aren't omnis.  However, if you did have "cardioid ears", in the usual position (facing 90 and 270 degrees), you would still hear (lower frequency) sounds from behind you just as well as sounds from in front of you..On the other hand, if your hearing was truly near coincident omni, you'd be screwed due to that sabre-tooth because you wouldn't be able to tell which bushes he was rustling around in.

Really, look at the polar plot again.  It is clearly not like an omni (and, equally clearly, not like a cardioid).  Much more directional than the one and much less so than the other.  Closer to a wide-card than the other patterns, perhaps, but really a unique entity not particularly comparable to any of the microphone patterns...

[earmonger]

I appreciate you being a technical stickler, aaronji.

I agree that the polar pattern is not omni.  As you mention, it doesn't look like any generally available cardioid mic I've seen either, though I have not done extensive research.

But on the practical question of what mics will best reproduce the concert experience,  I staunchly support omnis unless you are in a situation where you know you will need to reject a roof echo, a balcony reverb, a chatterbox crowd, etc.

Between the ear pickup pattern and the noggin processor, the hearing experience  feels omni--like that polar pattern and its mirror image (from the other ear) superimposed.  We merge the channels in our heads to provide the illusion of a stable 360-degree sound field with spatial imaging.

As you and gutbucket have pointed out, microphones just aren't that clever. 

I was at a concert last night, swiveling my head to look across a big stage and occasionally bopping along--omnis in a more fixed position on the shirt collar--and I realized that if I had had ear-mounted cardioids, the recording would have been a very seasick thing.  Maybe XY or ORTF cardioids stably mounted in a sweet spot would be good too, would eliminate that backless void I hear (or don't hear)  in front-facing cardioid recordings. Never tried it. But in the rough-and-tumble of concert recording,  I'd always go for omnis as the first choice.