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Author Topic: Is there an ideal taping location?  (Read 1851 times)

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Offline moondust.and.solitude

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2022, 09:41:43 AM »
We can all agree talkers and whistlers suck.

The answers here are interesting.  I personally would be found next to Scooter or Rigpimp dead center FOB wearing my gear.  I don't own a stand so that's not an option.

You get to be the stand. A human mic stand :)
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Offline Chanher

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2022, 01:21:08 PM »
Getting close to the soundguy and thus ensuring a proper mix of the instruments in the recording has been more of a focus for me lately. This is assuming of course that the soundguy knows what he's doing. I've made the mistake of seeking a better, clearer sounding recording by either running onstage or getting close to a stack only for 1-2 elements of the band to be lacking in the mix and thus making it unlistenable IMO. If you or the band is definitely gonna want to listen to the recording then I'd take the safer route.

As mentioned before, walking around and using your ears to find a good sounding spot is a great habit to form. Hopefully you can do it for an opener. If it sounds sweet to your ears, it will probably sound sweet on the recording. Often I find myself close to the soundguy. Beware of talkers though, as previously mentioned.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 01:39:54 PM by Chanher »
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Offline DMBFan920

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2022, 01:45:56 PM »
Wow, I'm overwhelmed by the responses here thus far. Thank you all so much!

For gear, I will run a pair of Line Audio CM4s on a stand plugged into a Tascam DR-40. I know it's not the top-of-the-line recorder, but I've used it countless times for other things and gotten great results. The mics and stand are my initial investment for just getting into taping. I'll upgrade to a better recorder in time.

From weighing all of the replies, it seems like back next to the sound guy may make sense. The music is singer-songwriter pop-rock stuff. So, likely some acoustic, but also rock. I plan on using an opening bands to as a test for how high to put the mics, and level setting, etc.

I can't thank you all, and TapersSection enough for all of the help. There's really nothing on YouTube so it's great to have a resource like this.

Offline if_then_else

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Offline DMBFan920

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2022, 02:26:29 PM »
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=91746.msg1551428#msg1551428

Wow, you are awesome! I would have never thought of this or found this on my own. Thank you so much!

Offline morst

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2022, 04:30:34 PM »
Turner Hall is boomy, and it's in Milwaukee so you'll definitely get a drinking crowd!
Stack tape, MotB or a tall stand at the board are the options I've run there. Stack tapes had the least crowd by far.
Obviously you'd need permission for the tall stand, but if you have board access, you can make it work.


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Offline aaronji

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2022, 09:15:25 AM »
I understand. Like I stated a few times, just my preference. Yes, you are correct, I shouldn't have said "nothing to the sides and behind" but by design they eliminate a LOT more side/rear chatter than omni's do. No doubt.

The distance factor for cards and hypers are 1.7 and 2. No doubt a substantial reduction in off-axis sound compared to omnis, but not nearly as much as people often assume. There are no magic bullets. Plus, there are always trade-offs with every polar pattern; they all have their strengths and weaknesses (and not just in terms of pick-up/rejection angles). Those big hyper lobes at 180°, for example, will reject a lot less to the rear than cardioids...

Offline moondust.and.solitude

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2022, 01:50:55 PM »
My placement of mics and the use of cardioid's does the trick for me. Many times I have been surprised by very talkative people thinking that the show would be inundated with their discussions to find out later the mics didn't pick them up at all. I'm a big fan of spec sheets and the like, but the real test was a lot of trial and error until I found what works best for my use.

It's a good discussion  :cheers:
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2022, 02:24:11 PM »
The recorder you are using is fine for the job.  It just needs to work properly.  The mics are the most important part of the gear-chain, in combination with how you set them up, and most fundamentally, where.  If you can get away with it, increased height above the audience will often help significantly when people are talkative, but be careful not to go so high as to position the microphones above the high-frequency radiation pattern of the PA - it may sound perfect at head height but dull and reverberant above a certain height limit.

[...]walking around and using your ears to find a good sounding spot is a great habit to form. Hopefully you can do it for an opener. If it sounds sweet to your ears, it will probably sound sweet on the recording. Often I find myself close to the soundguy.
^This.

A hierarchy of recording location constraints-
1) What the band will allow you to do.
2) What the venue will allow you to do.
3) What you are comfortable with managing.
4) What the variables involved with the PA setup and mixing dictate.
5) What the acoustics of the room dictate.

My earlier post on optimal recording location suggestions only addresses the last couple entries in the above list.

Regarding my earlier suggestions, don't het hung up about the spacing between mics too much, it's the last thing to worry about, more a "nice to have" icing on the cake and simply the next logical step which follows the more important aspect of making the most of whatever direct-sound/reverberant-ambient-audience-sound ratio you are dealing with (determined in turn by the even more important aspect of recording location) by directing the most-sensitive on-axis part of the microphone's directional pattern toward the primary PA and on-stage sound sources.

Record from where you can get away with doing so, where you are comfortable managing it, and where sounds best, and then if possible configure your rig to make the most of that situation, to whatever extent you are comfortable with.
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Offline DMBFan920

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2022, 05:48:50 PM »
Thanks for that! Any tips on how to get mic spacing/aim set properly? Is it trial and error during an opener? Or is there a way to set it without listening?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2022, 10:10:48 PM »
Wandering around and listening is the only assured way to really know the acoustic sweet spots.  Otherwise its an educated guess, which is what most of use here are making except for morst who makes great tapes, knows that room and has recorded there before.  Take the suggestions in his post above for that place, he's already heard the room and made the best of it. Choose a recording position based on that, where you are allowed to setup, and whatever you are comfortable with managing.

Use whatever stereo microphone configuration you prefer and are comfortable with. The stereo mic config I think will work best is to point the mics at the PA stacks. That automatically sets up an angle between mics that depends on how far away you are.  Next set the spacing between mics based off that angle.  Best way to do that is to refer to the improved PAS table with the angle you just ended up with and the polar pattern of the mics - it suggests an optimal spacing.  Get as close to the suggested spacing as you can and don't sweat it if you can't, just keep the mics pointed at the PA.
^
You can do all this without listening.

When the band comes on, check to make sure everything is working, and levels are good. Then stand and close your eyes and point (mentally or physically) at the apparent center of the sound from the stage, ignoring lights and the fact that you know were the stage is.  Carefully rotate the mic stand so as to point the center of the microphone array in that direction.  That's its. You're set. Enjoy the show.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 01:02:41 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline moondust.and.solitude

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2022, 11:29:46 PM »
When the band comes on, check to make sure everything is working, and levels are good. Then stand and close your eyes and point (mentally or physically) at the apparent center of the sound from the stage, ignoring lights and the fact that you know were the stage is.  Carefully rotate the mic stand so as to point the center of the microphone array in that direction.  That's its. You're set. Enjoy the show.

This is AMAZING!!!  I never thought of that trick and it's simply spot on. Wow. The talent on this site is just mind blowing. Thanks again Gutbucket for all your knowledge!
Mics: Lewitt LCT-040; Naiant X-X Omni's; Audio Technica U853AW's; Sony ECM-166BMP's; Audio Technica AT-853's.
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Offline if_then_else

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2022, 11:08:16 AM »
Sometimes, it's also worth watching the local FoH engineer during the soundcheck or the opening act.

Because they're often assessing the sound in a specific spot, which is essentially the spot they're mixing for.

Offline morst

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2022, 01:21:48 PM »
.  If you can get away with it, increased height above the audience will often help significantly when people are talkative, but be careful not to go so high as to position the microphones above the high-frequency radiation pattern of the PA - it may sound perfect at head height but dull and reverberant above a certain height limit.
Excellent point.
At Turner Hall, I was happy with the tall stand at the board, because the room is long enough that the flown PA has to throw past the FoH mix position to cover the back of the room.
But if, for instance, you were in a different room with the FoH mix site near the back wall, and no balcony, the PA speakers really might not extend treble response much over the height of the mix engineer's ears! Placing the mics above this threshold really could result in the "dull but reverberant" sound that Gutbucket mentions.

Offline bonghitwillie

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Re: Is there an ideal taping location?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2022, 11:42:20 PM »
alot of venues hang the spkrs so it is hard to get close to them. if the stage has front fills, that is the place to be. there is one venue i have been to many times. it is a seated venue. last time i was there no one sat in the front row center seats. during the headline act first song i moved to those seats. they had front fills under the stage that you could only hear at that location that sounded unbelievable. you never would have known unless you sat there.

 

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