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Offline grv68

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Mic stand noise
« on: January 21, 2023, 12:02:02 PM »
Hi all - I’ve been reading a bit here trying to prepare for some live recording (mix of electric and acoustic/electric “rock”).  I’ve done some pretty humble stealth and open recording with a phone mounted external mic, but this is my first foray into a “semi-real” rig.

Here’s what I have:

Matched pair sE Electronics sE8 cardioid mics (includes stereo bar in kit)
Rycote INV-6 shock mounts
“Excellines” mic cable (nothing special)
Zoom F3 2 channel 32 bit FP recorder (with lithium batteries and external packs)
Manfrotto MA1052BAC stand
KINGJOY 76" Camera Tripod (plus an extension that gets me to about 8’; useful in seating areas where the Manfrotto’s base may not fit).
Gaffer’s tape, velcro wraps, weights, etc.

I have a first outing at a venue where a tapers’ section is set aside next to FOH, and another where I will be FOB about half way back on the floor in a seating area, more or less DFC.

So with all that, my questions.  I’ve not had a chance to record with this setup yet in a loud environment, but I do notice on dry runs in my living room that if I bump the stand, even fairly gently, I can hear it in the recording as a fairly prominent low end rumble.  I noticed that same thing about my phone-based low end setup too and in practice, it was not a problem once at the performance where things were much louder.  I imagine any rumble got lost in the noise floor.

I’d like to think that will be the case again, but I figured I would ask for any tips here.  I gather from reading that engaging a high pass filter on the mics is a bad idea for music where low end is important.  I feel pretty confident I can guard my rig at the events (dedicated section for one; I bought a seat for my rig at the other).  Any recommendations about reducing stand noise?  I included a pic of my stereo pair in case I am doing something silly.  Planning on trying the PAS approach, although depending on angles, I am not sure my bar will be wide enough.  We’ll see.

Thanks for any help.



Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2023, 01:57:00 PM »
I wonder if your cables are a bit too taut? That could create a path of vibration directly to your mics even if they are in shock mounts. Try creating a gentle curve/loop coming off the back of the mics and tie off to your stand a few inches below the stereo bar.

If that doesn't help the situation, then the stock 72-shore Lyres in the INV-6 might be too stiff to isolate the SE8, even if Rycote recommends it. (Their recommendations often seem to assume boompole use with a large windscreen.) You could try getting two pairs of the softest 62-shore Lyres, which I find are necessary for the lightweight Line Audio mics.

https://www.adorama.com/ry042255.html
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2023, 02:29:02 PM »
Yes, I too wonder if you have the cables in the recites looped and clipped at the base of the Rycotes.  Usually that covers it.  Also likely you're hearing noise out of context as you said, and it would be totally masked in practice.  High pass in post is definitely the way, almost none on mics are steep and low enough for this without affecting music, they're really for voice and proximity control, not your problem.  Then there are forensics type things RX10 that can always remove those things if needed later. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50

Offline grv68

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2023, 02:43:05 PM »
I'll go for bigger loops and maybe remove the red heat shrink on the mic end, as I imagine that added stiffness is not helping.  I clipped the cables into the bottom of the shock mounts, but probably didn't leave enough slack above that.  I was afraid a literal loop would cause the mic cable to rub against itself and create more noise, but experimentation is my friend, I suppose.

In looking at the packaging for the shock mounts, I apparently already have the softer 62 lyres, so that's a happy accident! 

Good to know about the high pass and leaving it off.  I spend a lot of time in RX so I am confident I can fix things in post if need be, but I want to minimize how much fixing there is to do.  I suspect I am worrying about nothing, but luck favors the prepared. 

Thanks for your help!

Edit:  On a re-read, it sounds like maybe I should ignore the clips on the Rycotes and secure the stand end of the cable loop even lower (actually on the stand).  I will try that too.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2023, 02:46:23 PM by grv68 »

Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2023, 03:01:41 PM »
Do not use the clips built into the Rycote mounts. Tie off lower on the stand itself. Also, leave the heat shrink; you want the strain relief on the cable.

You shouldn't need to high-pass. Solve the structural vibrations and that will take care of it.

See attached for a couple examples of proper strain relief.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
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Offline GLouie

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2023, 03:32:05 PM »
Yes, I find these tall, light, metal stands ring when thumped. I put sandbags on the base legs, which also improves stability and safety. Along with your shockmounts, that is about all you can do.

Any shock sounds should get recorded faithfully and you can try filters in post.

Offline grv68

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2023, 04:00:59 PM »
Thanks for the examples and the suggestions!

Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2023, 05:32:19 PM »
Yes, I find these tall, light, metal stands ring when thumped. I put sandbags on the base legs, which also improves stability and safety. Along with your shockmounts, that is about all you can do.

Any shock sounds should get recorded faithfully and you can try filters in post.

Weights are a must for safety and stability, but I never considered they might help with stand resonance. I have heard people recommend attaching small clamp-on boom weights to the first vertical section a few feet above to the base for this purpose.

If you're on a hard floor, you can also put vibration absorbers under the feet. I have a set of sticky Sorbothane pucks I sometimes use.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
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Offline EmRR

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2023, 06:58:11 PM »
I've never had a problem with the clips built into the Rycote mounts.  I run a studio and use up to 8 of these every session, clipped that way.  Inches to feet from drummers, etc.  No vibrations make it in.    I do a lot of concert broadcast field work, same situation.   They're really designed for the Rycote pigtails with thinner wire, those do help. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50

Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2023, 07:01:16 PM »
I've never had a problem with the clips built into the Rycote mounts.  I run a studio and use up to 8 of these every session, clipped that way.  Inches to feet from drummers, etc.  No vibrations make it in.    I do a lot of concert broadcast field work, same situation.   They're really designed for the Rycote pigtails with thinner wire, those do help.

It's more the tightness of them because they are designed for the pigtails that I don't use them.
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Offline roffels

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2023, 11:50:13 AM »
If you do catch some cable or mic stand rumble, all is not lost. It's tedious, but if you have an editor that that has a spectral view, you can usually see the "thump" as a brighter spot on the low end. You can select it and either reduce the gain or attenuate it. This way you can target the problem areas rather than just run a high-pass on the entire recording.

Screenshot from Izotope as an example.

Offline grv68

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2023, 12:18:32 PM »
If you do catch some cable or mic stand rumble, all is not lost. It's tedious, but if you have an editor that that has a spectral view, you can usually see the "thump" as a brighter spot on the low end. You can select it and either reduce the gain or attenuate it. This way you can target the problem areas rather than just run a high-pass on the entire recording.

Screenshot from Izotope as an example.

Thanks, that's what I use for fixes so if there's anything I can actually hear in the recording, that's where I'll be headed to make some targeted repairs!

Offline rigpimp

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2023, 03:54:46 PM »
How stiff are the lyres on your INV's?  I found mine cause noise if I look at them wrong.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10
Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Creek OBH-11 > Sennheiser HD700
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://www.concertarchives.org/kskreider (work in progress)
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2023, 06:24:41 PM »
How stiff are the lyres on your INV's?  I found mine cause noise if I look at them wrong.

You may be another person suffering from Rycote making a recommendation for lyres too stiff for your mics. Once you have the right ones, there's nothing I have found that works better. But you often need to go a level softer than they recommend.

For example, they say the INV-7 HG MKIII is suitable for the DPA 4011. Not a chance! Rumble city.
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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2023, 06:51:32 PM »
How stiff are the lyres on your INV's?  I found mine cause noise if I look at them wrong.

You may be another person suffering from Rycote making a recommendation for lyres too stiff for your mics. Once you have the right ones, there's nothing I have found that works better. But you often need to go a level softer than they recommend.

For example, they say the INV-7 HG MKIII is suitable for the DPA 4011. Not a chance! Rumble city.

I'm using 62 (black/black), would never go stiffer, and there is nothing softer from what I can tell.  But yes, I need to be very careful when using it.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10
Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Creek OBH-11 > Sennheiser HD700
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://www.concertarchives.org/kskreider (work in progress)
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2023, 07:42:28 PM »
How stiff are the lyres on your INV's?  I found mine cause noise if I look at them wrong.

You may be another person suffering from Rycote making a recommendation for lyres too stiff for your mics. Once you have the right ones, there's nothing I have found that works better. But you often need to go a level softer than they recommend.

For example, they say the INV-7 HG MKIII is suitable for the DPA 4011. Not a chance! Rumble city.

I'm using 62 (black/black), would never go stiffer, and there is nothing softer from what I can tell.  But yes, I need to be very careful when using it.

With your Schoeps actives? I would think the 62 Lyres should be plenty compliant. I use them with my CM3s which are lighter than your actives, and are very vibration-sensitive.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

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Offline rigpimp

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2023, 11:52:57 AM »
With your Schoeps actives? I would think the 62 Lyres should be plenty compliant. I use them with my CM3s which are lighter than your actives, and are very vibration-sensitive.

Yes, running my CCM 4 lg pair in an ORTF bar or running MK5/MK/8 actives but particularly the latter.  I used to have a bulky ORTF-M/S combo mount that Scott made for me and that was even worse.  I got to the point where I mount the M/S on a Rowi clamped at the top of my 3373 to help alleviate stress on the Rycote INV.
Mics: Schoeps MK5 G MP, Schoeps CCM 4 Lg MP, Schoeps MK8 MP, nBob cables > PFA, KCY 250/5 > PFA
Pre/A>D/P48: Sonosax SX/M2-LS, E.A.A. PSP-2, Naiant Tinybox, Neumann BS48i-2 (for sale)
Recorders: Sound Devices Mixpre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10
Playback: Jolida 1501 Hybrid > McIntosh MX 130 > Von Schweikert VR-4 JR, or Creek OBH-11 > Sennheiser HD700
http://archive.org/bookmarks/kskreider
https://www.concertarchives.org/kskreider (work in progress)
https://archive.org/details/thespps

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2023, 12:27:28 PM »
I need to be very careful when using it.

As general rule-of-thumb, I've found that for shock mounts to effectively attenuate solid-born noise transmitted through the stand, the suspension needs to be loose enough that whatever is suspended gets pretty wiggly.  More than I'd like.  So much so that it gets a bit disconcerting.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Mic stand noise
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2023, 12:43:40 PM »
With your Schoeps actives? I would think the 62 Lyres should be plenty compliant. I use them with my CM3s which are lighter than your actives, and are very vibration-sensitive.

Yes, running my CCM 4 lg pair in an ORTF bar or running MK5/MK/8 actives but particularly the latter.  I used to have a bulky ORTF-M/S combo mount that Scott made for me and that was even worse.  I got to the point where I mount the M/S on a Rowi clamped at the top of my 3373 to help alleviate stress on the Rycote INV.

Really scratching my head here, because I use one pair of 72 Lyres for a pair of CM3 on a SRS bar, and they are lighter than your actives. The 62 Lyres would be way too floppy for this - I use them when mounting the CM3 individually.
I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way.
- Gustav Mahler

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