Topic: 24 bit without preamp

[Gollum]

Greetings all- my first post here but I've been reading the forum for several months. A great source of useful information and fun reading as well!

I'll try to keep this brief. With my recent purchase of an R-09 (due to blank MDs after returning from several shows last year) I'm planning to record in 24 bit for the first time. I just upgraded to firmware version 1.20 and now I don't have to worry about a 2+ hour set with the 4GB card. I'm not using a preamp so I don't expect to reach clipping level even if I go mic in with levels set fairly high. The show will be outdoor with assigned seating (I'm nowhere near a stack), amplified bluegrass. I've already used the R-09 several times, once at 16/44.1, the other time at a 2 day festival trying to fit 10 hours on 2.5GB worth of chips (yep I used mp3 format for a lot of it). Won't be doing that again, but it was strictly for personal use.

My initial feeling was that going from 16 to 24 bit would simply allow me to set levels 50% higher to allow more definition in the file. But if I couldn't reach clipping level in 16 bit, what would be the advantage of going higher? Does 24 bit record at higher resolution as well as allowing higher input levels? Regarding sample rate, is there any reason to use 48 instead of 44.1 other than to be able to write to DVD-A? 

It's possible I'll go over 2GB on my file- would it be advisable to stop and begin a separate file during a section of applause? I'll be doing post in Audition 2.0 so I don't think file size will be an issue, but I'm not sure whether the file will automatically be split while recording (with a small gap?) if I'm running verion 1.20. If that's the case I'd rather be the one deciding when that will happen.

For my final few questions, is there any difference between recording line in and boosting the volume in post, or going mic in and using the internal preamp in the R-09? I'm confused about how this works because (as far as i know) levels can also be adjusted when using line in. Does this mean that line in also uses the internal preamp but without the initial boost? I should probably learn more about how my new toy works, but I only have a couple of days and not much free time for research.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[powermonkey]

Not sure about the differences between 16bit and 24bit, but I do know that the file-split is seamless on the R09, so there's no need to worry about starting a new file and whatnot.

Hope that helps, and I'm sure there are more knowledgable folk around here for the more technical stuff!

 

[Gollum]

Thanks for clarifying the file split issue. Now I won't have so much fiddling to do. 

[Shawn]

24 bit doesn't allow you to set your levels higher.

[JasonSobel]

My initial feeling was that going from 16 to 24 bit would simply allow me to set levels 50% higher to allow more definition in the file. But if I couldn't reach clipping level in 16 bit, what would be the advantage of going higher? Does 24 bit record at higher resolution as well as allowing higher input levels? Regarding sample rate, is there any reason to use 48 instead of 44.1 other than to be able to write to DVD-A?

24 bit doesn't allow you to set your levels higher.

exactly, the advantage of 24 bit is better resolution at lower recording levels.

[Gollum]

I think I get it. It's all about resolution, which is......4 times better with 24 bit? Please correct me before I spread any more misinformation.

Everything I've read indicates that I should record at the highest level that doesn't clip, with a safety factor. From what both of you say that would be the same whether I'm going 16 or 24 bit. Since the internal preamp adds noise, is line-in best with 24 bit even if it results in a quieter initial recording? I haven't quite figured out whether recording louder with mic-in will give a different result from going line-in and boosting volume in post.

Obviously the best solution is line-in with a quality preamp. Maybe in the not-too-distant future.........

Thanks for the info!

[gratefulphish]

Yes 16 vs. 24 bit is about resolution, and the amount of information recorded about each sound. IIRC, 16/44.1 is about 65,000 samples, while 24/96 is over 2 million samples.  One difference is that you can record in 24 bit, at lower levels, without compromising the sound quality when you raise the levels in post.  In 16/44.1, it was somewhat like the analog days, where you wanted to run as hot as possible, to avoid unnecessary noise.  In the 24 bit world, a lot of people will run at -6db peaks, some as low as -12db, because raising the levels in post does not introduce the noise that was there in 16 bit.  So if you are running in 24 bit, you can set your levels lower, avoiding potential clipping issues, and then add gain in post.

As for mic vs. line in, some mics need the little bit of power provided by the mic in jack.  Others don't.  You can test it out at home first.  Also depends on how loud the music is.  A future preamp will definitely improve the overall system, but then so will a future ( fill in the blank) and a (fill in the blank) and a (fill in the blank).  The slipperly slope of becoming a taper/gear slut. +T for finding your way here.

[Gollum]

My mics are self-powered (battery box) so I think I'll try line-in.

I wouldn't have that R-09 if the MD hadn't failed when I was taping my wife's favorite singer. I'm sure we'll look into a good preamp when Uncle Sam sends our check next spring. But there's probably not much of a chance that I'll become a serious "gear slut" until I get two kids through college. 7 more years!!!