Topic: Church Audio UBB Issue

[joeldotc]

I just received CA14 cards and an ugly battery box from Church yesterday and I'm having some issues with the battery box. For reference, I'm using a Roland r-05 recorder.

The mics work fine when I plug them directly into the mic input with PIP turned on. But, when I try connecting them CA14 > UBB > line-in, I get nothing. I've been testing them by playing music out of a speaker right in front of the mics. I'm making sure that the battery is connected properly and that the terminals are making proper contact.

Now here is the really weird part - if I turn the battery around and press the opposite terminals to the connector, I get input from the mics. This is challenging to do because the 9V battery wont actually connect in this orientation, so I need to hold the battery and battery box together in this position.

Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong? Or did CA just build the battery box incorrectly - and if so, any ideas on fixes? Hoping this is just an issue on my end and not with the battery box. I was planning on taping two shows this coming Tuesday and Wednesday.

[Rairun]

It is very strange that you do get some input if you switch the battery orientation around, and that will probably invalidate what I'm going to say here, but a couple of things to keep in mind:

- The CA-14 cards are not very sensitive. I don't have them, but my CA-11s are around 16 dB less sensitive than the Roland R-05's internal mics.

- LineIN@40 is 7 dB quieter than MicLow@40, and 26 dB quieter than MicHI@40!

- In my experience, a battery box (depending on maker), might attenuate the signal by 1 dB or so.

So just to make sure you're REALLY not getting a signal, you should turn PiP off, connect the CA-14s to the BB and then to the MIC input, and use the highest gain you possibly can (MicHi@80). This will give you a gain of +46  dB, which should be enough for you to hear yourself speak next to the microphones. If you can't hear anything, I'm afraid the BB is not working.

[joeldotc]

So just to make sure you're REALLY not getting a signal, you should turn PiP off, connect the CA-14s to the BB and then to the MIC input, and use the highest gain you possibly can (MicHi@80). This will give you a gain of +46  dB, which should be enough for you to hear yourself speak next to the microphones. If you can't hear anything, I'm afraid the BB is not working.

Just tried this - I do get input when I have it like this, but my voice is below  -40db. When I'm playing music as loud as possible directly into the mics, they get up to like -30db.

For comparison, when I plug the mics directly into the MIC input with 1.2 V PiP (I cranked it up from 0.9 V), my voice pretty much gets right up to 0db and the music is completely clipping. So it doesn't seem like the BB is providing any power to the mics.

Not sure if anyone has a UBB to compare, but I attached a picture of mine with labels added. Seems weird to me that the POS terminal lines up with the output of the battery box and the NEG terminal lines up with the mics, but I can't see under the shrink wrap so I can't be sure.

EDIT: Just tried doing the same setup (PiP off, CA14>UBB>MIC input) and tried unplugging the battery while playing music into the mics. The levels immediately went up (not as high as with PiP on, but still) when the battery was unplugged. This gave the same levels as CA14>MIC without PiP turned on. So yeah, seems like the battery connection is wrong. 

[vanark]

For less than the loudest music, in my experience, you need to run mic in on the recorder. The BB can supply power without amplifying the signal. It is not a preamp. I think it is working as expected.

[joeldotc]

For less than the loudest music, in my experience, you need to run mic in on the recorder. The BB can supply power without amplifying the signal. It is not a preamp. I think it is working as expected.

See my update on my last message. The battery actually reduces levels when I plug it into MIC input with PiP off. Also, I'm expecting the shows I'm seeing to be really loud, so I don't think MIC input is the best option.

If I cant get this sorted by the day of the show, I'll run the mics into MIC input with the PiP up, but I imagine I'll get some distortion since Chris Church seems to recommend that his mics always receive 9V for loud stuff.

[vanark]

Unplugging the battery doesn't mean you are using the mics without power. It is more likely you are getting signal from the built-in mics at that point. Sorry, but I think you are confusing what the BB is supposed to be doing. It seems it is doing exactly what it should.

[joeldotc]

I can tell you it's not the built-in mics. If I tap on the internal mics, it doesn't register anything, but if I tap on the CA14s then it picks up audio.

Further, I can't crank the gain any higher than it is - I'm playing music as loud as possible directly into the mics, I could be wrong, but surely the levels would be higher than -30dB -40dB?

[vanark]

Line in or mic in on the recorder? What is the input set at?

If you are line in at anything other than near max, you are getting what I would expect.

[joeldotc]

I'm going mic in, input at 80/80 with the Gain on hi - literally maxed out.

Here, I recorded music playing directly into the mic, then halfway through disconnected the battery from the UBB. You can see the peak in the middle which is me unplugging the battery. Left of that peak is CA14>UBB>MIC and the right side is the same with the battery disconnected. Clearly, nothing is getting through the UBB with the battery plugged into the UBB even with the gain as high as possible.

[vanark]

Definitely something wrong. I would try to have Chris diagnose it.

Where are you located? You can use my UBB if you are local to Boston.

[joeldotc]

Yeah - I emailed him about it but haven't heard back yet (to be fair, its a weekend). Little frustrating because I ordered this stuff well over a month ago but only received em on Friday - the shows I'm most excited to tape are next week

And thanks that's very kind of you! Unfortunately I'm in Ottawa and the shows I'm seeing are in Toronto/Kingston.

[vanark]

Chris has a notoriously poor reputation for customer service. Good luck.

[Rairun]

Yeah - I emailed him about it but haven't heard back yet (to be fair, its a weekend). Little frustrating because I ordered this stuff well over a month ago but only received em on Friday - the shows I'm most excited to tape are next week

And thanks that's very kind of you! Unfortunately I'm in Ottawa and the shows I'm seeing are in Toronto/Kingston.

I've bought from Chris before, and while the mics did eventually arrive, you shouldn't trust any timeline he gives you. He might say the mics will be posted tomorrow, next week or next month -- but this has no bearing on when he is actually going to do it. Also, his battery boxes and pre-amps are pretty good, but he builds them in such a way that it isn't practical for you to repair them yourself. I once had an issue with my pre-amp, but when I opened the plastic casing, the entire circuit was covered in glue. Couldn't reach the failing contacts even if I tried. You're going to have to send the UBB back, and it will take however long he wants it to take.

How loud are the shows you are planning to record? I wouldn't recommend not using a pre-amp or battery box, but when my pre-amp failed, I ran the mics straight into a Zoom H1 (2.5V PiP), and the recording turned out just fine.

[joeldotc]

I've bought from Chris before, and while the mics did eventually arrive, you shouldn't trust any timeline he gives you. He might say the mics will be posted tomorrow, next week or next month -- but this has no bearing on when he is actually going to do it. Also, his battery boxes and pre-amps are pretty good, but he builds them in such a way that it isn't practical for you to repair them yourself. I once had an issue with my pre-amp, but when I opened the plastic casing, the entire circuit was covered in glue. Couldn't reach the failing contacts even if I tried. You're going to have to send the UBB back, and it will take however long he wants it to take.

How loud are the shows you are planning to record? I wouldn't recommend not using a pre-amp or battery box, but when my pre-amp failed, I ran the mics straight into a Zoom H1 (2.5V PiP), and the recording turned out just fine.

Yeah... he was good for me for the most part, but I was really pestering him to get my stuff shipped. Hopefully I can figure it out soon with him - especially since this is just a defective device. I would get some sound pros gear if getting them to Canada wasn't so expensive.

I'm seeing Godspeed You! Black Emperor, so it'll definitely be really loud. If the Zoom H1n provides 2.5V I think I'll go borrow one from the university library (they also have H4n Pros but the jack on those is in a terrible spot + I imagine they're also 2.5V) to use for these shows. Even though I've heard their preamps arent as good as the r-05, I think the extra PiP is more valuable (especially for a loud show). My other recorder is a DR-40 which doesn't have a 3.5mm jack either

Gonna be taping a few other bands later this year so I'm hoping to get this sorted soon.

[Rairun]

Yeah... he was good for me for the most part, but I was really pestering him to get my stuff shipped. Hopefully I can figure it out soon with him - especially since this is just a defective device. I would get some sound pros gear if getting them to Canada wasn't so expensive.

I'm seeing Godspeed You! Black Emperor, so it'll definitely be really loud. If the Zoom H1n provides 2.5V I think I'll go borrow one from the university library (they also have H4n Pros but the jack on those is in a terrible spot + I imagine they're also 2.5V) to use for these shows. Even though I've heard their preamps arent as good as the r-05, I think the extra PiP is more valuable (especially for a loud show). My other recorder is a DR-40 which doesn't have a 3.5mm jack either

Gonna be taping a few other bands later this year so I'm hoping to get this sorted soon.

I'm pretty sure the Zoom H1 uses the same preamp as the H1n, and it is actually a better preamp than the R-05 at a very specific setting. Basically, the Zoom H1's levels go from 0 to 100. 0 to 15 is digital attenuation. 16 is unity gain. 17 to 36 adds gain, but the noise floor increases at the same exact amount as the gain. Then from level 36 to 37, you can clearly notice a HUGE decrease in hiss, despite level 37 adding more gain than level 36. That's apparently when the low-noise gain circuitry kicks in. Then from 38 to 100, you do get more gain, but you also get the same amount of noise. So level 37 (which amounts to +13 dB) is the setting you should use unless you are in danger of clipping. If you were using the internal mics, GYBE would definitely clip -- but since the Church Audio mics are ~15 dB less sensitive than the internals, you should be good. I taped Mogwai last year (with a preamp for power, but set to 0 gain; the Zoom H1 was set to 37), and the recording peaked at -4 dBFS or so during My Father My King.

When the Roland R-05 is set to +13 dB (~LineIN@80 or ~MicLow@50 or ~MicHi@15 [not recommended because anything under 18 gives you harmonic distortion]) you actually get a much worse signal to noise ratio than with the Zoom H1 at 37. The Roland R-05 only gets a significantly better signal to noise ratio from MicHi@40 on, which isn't a useful range for very loud shows.

This is the little table I use to figure out which settings I should use with each recorder:



Now, the Zoom H1N uses the same preamp, but instead of the digital 0-100 level settings, it uses a 0-10 physical dial to set gain. The principle is the same, but I hear the 'clear' gain (equivalent to 37 on the H1) kicks in just after the 6 mark. You can easily hear it with headphones, so I suggest you set it beforehand. Honestly, you will be totally fine IF your mics don't overload due to insufficient voltage, but there isn't much you can do about that right now. It's worth a try.

[daspyknows]

Yeah - I emailed him about it but haven't heard back yet (to be fair, its a weekend). Little frustrating because I ordered this stuff well over a month ago but only received em on Friday - the shows I'm most excited to tape are next week

And thanks that's very kind of you! Unfortunately I'm in Ottawa and the shows I'm seeing are in Toronto/Kingston.

You got gear in a month?  That may be a record.  What gets me is you said if you reverse the battery it works.  Almost sounds like it was soldered backwards.

[unidentified]

Given the circumstances, I would contact Sound Professionals and see how quickly they can send you a battery box.

[joeldotc]

---
Now, the Zoom H1N uses the same preamp, but instead of the digital 0-100 level settings, it uses a 0-10 physical dial to set gain. The principle is the same, but I hear the 'clear' gain (equivalent to 37 on the H1) kicks in just after the 6 mark. You can easily hear it with headphones, so I suggest you set it beforehand. Honestly, you will be totally fine IF your mics don't overload due to insufficient voltage, but there isn't much you can do about that right now. It's worth a try.

Amazing, thank you for the info. I'll give that a go

You got gear in a month?  That may be a record.  What gets me is you said if you reverse the battery it works.  Almost sounds like it was soldered backwards.

Haha yeah I emailed him about once every day after the 2 week "build time" and he finally got to it - shipping to Ottawa also only took 1 day, so that was a big help. I do think he soldered it backwards, unless maybe its some weird short happening.

Given the circumstances, I would contact Sound Professionals and see how quickly they can send you a battery box.

Yeah I should reach out to them, I really doubt I'd be able to get anything by Tuesday given customs and stuff though.

[jefflester]

You could just get a couple of 9V battery leads and wire them back-to-back but flip the polarity,

[joeldotc]

You could just get a couple of 9V battery leads and wire them back-to-back but flip the polarity,

Good idea, gonna try this - may as well. I considered doing this earlier, but I wasn't sure if the BB was actually messed up or not.

I'm gonna bring a second recorder to use the internals on as backup, and then, even if I mess up Tuesdays show, I should be good for Wednesday.

[Gutbucket]

^ What Jeff said. Doing that will get you through your upcoming show.  You then either continue using it that way or return it to Chris to be reworked.

[joeldotc]

^ What Jeff said. Doing that will get you through your upcoming show.  You then either continue using it that way or return it to Chris to be reworked.

For sure. It'll be really funny if it works.

Definitely gonna be returning it to Chris - I'll probably build my own DIY BB as soon as I send it to him since that seems fun/easy and then if he takes 6 years to send me a working one I'll have something to use in the mean time.

[nulldogmas]

I'll probably build my own DIY BB as soon as I send it to him since that seems fun/easy and then if he takes 6 years to send me a working one I'll have something to use in the mean time.

Now that sounds like a plan.

(Btw, I checked my UBB and the input plug is aligned the same way as on yours. Doesn't mean Chris couldn't have munged up the internal wiring somehow, though.)

[joeldotc]

An update for this - ended up just running the h1n internals last night because I didn't get the 9v connectors in time and didn't want to risk the CA14s without the battery box. The recording actually came out pretty banger, I'm always impressed by the sound quality of those internal mics (there are quite a few GYBE shows taped w them)

Just picked up the 9v connectors, wired them back-to-back, and it seems to be working perfectly - hilarious.

For tonight, I'm gonna run CA14 > SUBB (Stupid & Ugly Battery Box) > r-05. Hopefully that works well

Once I ship off the BB back to Chris, I'll use these connectors to build my own BB!

[nulldogmas]

For tonight, I'm gonna run CA14 > SUBB (Stupid & Ugly Battery Box) > r-05. Hopefully that works well

Please post a photo of the SUBB, I am laughing already picturing it. But glad you may have found a (temporary) solution!

[joeldotc]

Please post a photo of the SUBB, I am laughing already picturing it. But glad you may have found a (temporary) solution!

Just need to toss some electrical tape on it haha!

[joeldotc]

So... it kind of worked. The recording seems really really weird and sounds off. (That being said, it is certainly listenable, just seems off). I think it might be DC offset/bias, but I'm not sure. I attached the spectrum here (after normalizing to -0.1db).

The gain levels were definitely low enough (peaks around -18db in the raw file), but the audio sounds sort of clipped.

Any ideas what could have caused this - maybe the flipped polarity battery running through the battery box? And any ideas how to repair the file?

[nulldogmas]

That looks like what I typically see from a dying battery in a UBB. If you're sure the battery was at full strength ... I dunno, is there any way the jury-rigging isn't passing along full voltage to the mics?

[joeldotc]

The battery was brand new prior to me testing it in the UBB when I was trying to diagnose it - definitely wasn't plugged in long enough to discharge it a significant amount.

I don't have a voltmeter to check, but I would not be surprised at all if the jury-rigging wasn't passing the full voltage to the mics. (could also be something happening inside the UBB, but I can't check)

[capnhook]

The battery was brand new prior to me testing it in the UBB when I was trying to diagnose it - definitely wasn't plugged in long enough to discharge it a significant amount.

I don't have a voltmeter to check, but I would not be surprised at all if the jury-rigging wasn't passing the full voltage to the mics. (could also be something happening inside the UBB, but I can't check)

Don't let Chris Church know you jury-rigged it

Might void the warranty   

[aaronji]

I have to say, this thread kind of infuriates me, although that is informed by my own interactions with Mr. Church. How hard is it, when you are selling things to people, to take an extra two minutes to plug it into a test set and make sure it works? He is a real piece of work. At this point, I am a little hesitant to buy bespoke gear, because, when they get out of the game, it can be difficult to repair or replace. I have an Aerco; I love it, and Jerry made it for me, but, since his passing, I worry about its long term health. Same with, for example, Guy. I think if I went Schoeps, I would buy nBoxes, and I love Ted's cables, but otherwise I much prefer to buy from a manufacturer that might still be around 5 or 10 years from now.

[nulldogmas]

I have to say, this thread kind of infuriates me, although that is informed by my own interactions with Mr. Church. How hard is it, when you are selling things to people, to take an extra two minutes to plug it into a test set and make sure it works? He is a real piece of work. At this point, I am a little hesitant to buy bespoke gear, because, when they get out of the game, it can be difficult to repair or replace. I have an Aerco; I love it, and Jerry made it for me, but, since his passing, I worry about its long term health. Same with, for example, Guy. I think if I went Schoeps, I would buy nBoxes, and I love Ted's cables, but otherwise I much prefer to buy from a manufacturer that might still be around 5 or 10 years from now.

Is there a good alternative to Chris for a minimal battery box in the UBB style? If not, joeldotc may have a side hustle ahead of him...

[jefflester]

I have to say, this thread kind of infuriates me, although that is informed by my own interactions with Mr. Church. How hard is it, when you are selling things to people, to take an extra two minutes to plug it into a test set and make sure it works? He is a real piece of work. At this point, I am a little hesitant to buy bespoke gear, because, when they get out of the game, it can be difficult to repair or replace. I have an Aerco; I love it, and Jerry made it for me, but, since his passing, I worry about its long term health. Same with, for example, Guy. I think if I went Schoeps, I would buy nBoxes, and I love Ted's cables, but otherwise I much prefer to buy from a manufacturer that might still be around 5 or 10 years from now.

Is there a good alternative to Chris for a minimal battery box in the UBB style? If not, joeldotc may have a side hustle ahead of him...

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=195797.0

[nulldogmas]

Is there a good alternative to Chris for a minimal battery box in the UBB style? If not, joeldotc may have a side hustle ahead of him...

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=195797.0

Thanks — I meant someone building and selling them to people with minimal soldering iron skills, though.

[jefflester]

Is there a good alternative to Chris for a minimal battery box in the UBB style? If not, joeldotc may have a side hustle ahead of him...

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=195797.0

Thanks — I meant someone building and selling them to people with minimal soldering iron skills, though.

Yeah, giving him the recipe to go into business....

[nulldogmas]

Yeah, giving him the recipe to go into business....

I endorse that plan! I'll place a preorder, even.

[joeldotc]

Finally got the chance to check the UBB with a multimeter. It must just be really messed up on the inside. When I connect the battery straight to it, no power goes to the mic input jack, but there is 9 V going to the output cable.

When I do the reverse polarizing thing, 2.8 V gets to the mic input jack, but it's flowing backwards, and then the 9 V stays flowing to the output cable, but is also flowing backwards. So it's not just "wired backwards", there must be a resistor in the wrong spot or something.

This could explain why the recording looked like it was getting low power from the batteries (which I also tested, and they are fully charged + there were no issues with my jury rigging, it got full flow through it). By the way, the recording got salvaged by doing a phase rotation in my DAW - it sounds pretty good now. Gonna get a friend who is way better at mastering to do a proper phase rotation/repair in Izotope RX.

Weird stuff!

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

[nulldogmas]

Oy! Good luck with the repair - and good to know about the phase rotation trick, I have some dying-battery recordings I may try it on.

[capnhook]

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

Sorry for your loss

[DavidPuddy]

Finally got the chance to check the UBB with a multimeter. It must just be really messed up on the inside. When I connect the battery straight to it, no power goes to the mic input jack, but there is 9 V going to the output cable.

When I do the reverse polarizing thing, 2.8 V gets to the mic input jack, but it's flowing backwards, and then the 9 V stays flowing to the output cable, but is also flowing backwards. So it's not just "wired backwards", there must be a resistor in the wrong spot or something.

This could explain why the recording looked like it was getting low power from the batteries (which I also tested, and they are fully charged + there were no issues with my jury rigging, it got full flow through it). By the way, the recording got salvaged by doing a phase rotation in my DAW - it sounds pretty good now. Gonna get a friend who is way better at mastering to do a proper phase rotation/repair in Izotope RX.

Weird stuff!

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

Sounds like he wired the DC blocking capacitor in backwards, among other issues. 🤡

OP I have a homemade battery box I can loan (or sell) you while Chris takes his time doing what he does. PM me if interested.

[joeldotc]

Sounds like he wired the DC blocking capacitor in backwards, among other issues. 🤡

OP I have a homemade battery box I can loan (or sell) you while Chris takes his time doing what he does. PM me if interested.

I actually just got all the parts in to build my own! Thank you for the offer though

I’ve been trying to replicate the issue using a breadboard but I can’t figure it out - oh well. Gonna fire up the soldering station sometime this week.

[daspyknows]

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

Good luck.

Its time for a poll.  When do we think you get a replacement/repair?

A.  By June 2024
B.  Sometime in 2024
C.  2025
D.  2026
E.  2027 or later?

I would pick D

[DavidPuddy]

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

Good luck.

Its time for a poll.  When do we think you get a replacement/repair?

A.  By June 2024
B.  Sometime in 2024
C.  2025
D.  2026
E.  2027 or later?

I would pick D

You forgot to list

F: After vacation

[beatkilla]

Anyways, this is going back off to Chris ASAP.

Good luck.

Its time for a poll.  When do we think you get a replacement/repair?

A.  By June 2024
B.  Sometime in 2024
C.  2025
D.  2026
E.  2027 or later?

I would pick D

He still hasn’t fixed my faulty 9200 and it’s been since 2017😳

[joeldotc]

Haha - yeah, I'm not holding my breath.

He said "Ok once I get it I will send out a replacement. Or repair this one."

My vote is 2025.

He still hasn’t fixed my faulty 9200 and it’s been since 2017😳

That's crazy - not that it's unexpected for him - at least the BB only costs like $50 and is easy to DIY.

By the way, here is how that recording ended up - it got combined with a recording from my friend who was using the internal mics on the h4n pro, but the h4n recording was rolled off above 250 Hz, so it was just to add some more bass to the mix.

https://archive.org/details/gybe2024-02-28.CA14_H4n

The distortion of the mics makes it sound like they played super loud (particularly in the 4th and 5th tracks), but they actually played relatively quiet that night. Still sounds quite good imo.

[AbbyTaper]

Does Chris still use the "I had the flu" excuse?

[nassau73]

I had a UBB for a few years. Here on Maui, only got to use it for maybe 8 shows or so. After awhile, channels started dropping out intermittently even with a fresh battery. Gave up on the UBB and went with the Sound Pro's small 9v bbox. Have only had a chance to use it a few times, but I'm much more confident that I'll get a decent recording unless it's something I screwed up.

[nulldogmas]

I've been using the same UBB for at least 10 years and it's never caused me any problems. I would happily buy another one if I had any faith that Chris would actually ship it to me.

[one8ung]

I had a UBB for a few years. Here on Maui, only got to use it for maybe 8 shows or so. After awhile, channels started dropping out intermittently even with a fresh battery. Gave up on the UBB and went with the Sound Pro's small 9v bbox. Have only had a chance to use it a few times, but I'm much more confident that I'll get a decent recording unless it's something I screwed up.

Which version of the Sound Pro's small 9v bbox are you talking about?

[unidentified]

I've been using the same UBB for at least 10 years and it's never caused me any problems. I would happily buy another one if I had any faith that Chris would actually ship it to me.

Same here