Topic: Neumann SKM-140 vs. Sennhesier MKH-8040ST? drop opinions here ~~>

[rigpimp]

I have been considering the 8040's for a while and am talking to a friend about borrowing a pair for a gig.  I have not listened to them a lot but am beyond curious about how they might stack up against the versatility and sound quality of my SKM-140 kit.  It would be required for me to get the extension cables since in the 4 or 5 years I have had the 140's the only time I ever unscrewed the active cables was when I switched from 3m cables to 5m cables.

Any opinions?  My main application is on-stage close mic'ing of acoustic stringbands but I occasionally record back by the board and try to work magic farther away from where the source of magic lies.

I will head over to the LMA and do a search there for some listening. 

[cashandkerouac]

wow, tough decision for sure.  you really can't go wrong with either the 140s or the 8040s.  both are awesome.  i run the 8040s and am extremely happy with them.  if budget is a variable in the equation, that tips the scales toward the 8040s.  budget aside, it really comes down to which mic is more pleasing to your ear.   

[page]

my 2 cents:

"Is the coloration of the neumanns objectionable for what you're recording" is the short question I'd ask. I find the 8040s to be fairly bass heavy but after EQ (to the order of -5db) have a nice coloration. I find the neumann color to either work really well with a musical genre or not at all. The reason I'd ask that first question is I find it much easier to correct EQ/tonal balance issues compared to coloration issues, so if you like the coloration, get those since you can tweak the balance later. If you're taping a lot of stuff where it doesn't fit as well, then get the Senns and just EQ when necessary.

[jazzgtrl4]

I run 140/50's and have for years and love them.. Talk to DatPat he runs the 8050's (hypers) and they are really nice we have done a number of  tapes with them and everything has turned out great!

[newplanet7]

Can't go wrong with either IMO. It's like asking whether you want a million dollars in 100's or 50's. Both will bring a pleasurable result.
Love them both. I do think the 140's pull down less bass but sound more natural.
HOWEVER, Neumann has the newer series out, both analog and digital mics KK series I think?, and I have heard zero from them.
If you were going with the Neumanns, I'd say check into those.
ANOTHER THING, is you will probably be able to find a nice pair of 140's used, and the 8040's prob not.
Looking at it I thought the 8040's were more expensive but I am wrong.
Anyone know what the REMOTE cables go for $ wise. Remember they are NOT actives.

Personally, I'd go with the 8040's.

[F.O.Bean]

Can't go wrong with either IMO. It's like asking whether you want a million dollars in 100's or 50's. Both will bring a pleasurable result.
Love them both. I do think the 140's pull down less bass but sound more natural.
HOWEVER, Neumann has the newer series out, both analog and digital mics KK series I think?, and I have heard zero from them.
If you were going with the Neumanns, I'd say check into those.
ANOTHER THING, is you will probably be able to find a nice pair of 140's used, and the 8040's prob not.
Looking at it I thought the 8040's were more expensive but I am wrong.
Anyone know what the REMOTE cables go for $ wise. Remember they are NOT actives.

Personally, I'd go with the 8040's.

140's are EVERYWHERE. Try something new and go with the 8040/8050's

[H₂O]

Or even newer like the neumann KM-A series - with the active cables!

[newplanet7]

Or even newer like the neumann KM-A series - with the active cables!

Exactly what I referenced above.

[F.O.Bean]

I had NO CLUE that Neumann came out with a new line How long has it been out?

[John Willett]

I had NO CLUE that Neumann came out with a new line How long has it been out?

About 6 years.

The KK series of capsules with the KM-D module came out in 2006 and I did my first recording with the KM 183-D in late 2006.

The KM-A analogue module, which used the same capsules came out in 2009.

Though, whle we are talking top end SDC cardioids, the Gefell M300 and SMS2000 series should be added to the list IMHO.

[cashandkerouac]

Anyone know what the REMOTE cables go for $ wise. Remember they are NOT actives.

Personally, I'd go with the 8040's.

the Sennheiser MZL8003 cable is $119.95 at B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532993-REG/Sennheiser_MZL8003_MZL_8003_Remote_Cable.html).  you need two of these to run a stereo pair.  it's a pricey item, but highly recommended if you want to 

if  is not your thing then don't worry about the remote cable.  the whole MKH8040 assembly (head and XLR adapter) is still quite small, so there's no need to break it up with a remote cable if you don't have to. 

[rigpimp]

+T for the replies.  I just spoke with my buddy and he is sending me out a pair of 8040's.  He told me the EXACT same thing about the EQ blah blah that folks mentioned above and in pm's. 

I am going to do two A:B comps.  One this coming weekend indoors (Henhouse Prowlers, Cape Girardeau, MO) and some 6/29-30 at Bloom Heavy outdoors.

Initially I was thinking of a pair to REPLACE my 140's.  If I were to roll the dice today I would roll them for a whole new set of mics and KEEP the 140's, so that might be what I do.  If I picked up a second pair the cost of the 8040's + cables would be about as far as I would go. 

Stay tuned.

[rigpimp]

the Sennheiser MZL8003 cable is $119.95 at B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/532993-REG/Sennheiser_MZL8003_MZL_8003_Remote_Cable.html).  you need two of these to run a stereo pair.  it's a pricey item, but highly recommended if you want to 

Still not as pricey as what I am using:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=lc3+ka%2F10&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ta

[newplanet7]

+T for the replies.  I just spoke with my buddy and he is sending me out a pair of 8040's.  He told me the EXACT same thing about the EQ blah blah that folks mentioned above and in pm's. 

I am going to do two A:B comps.  One this coming weekend indoors (Henhouse Prowlers, Cape Girardeau, MO) and some 6/29-30 at Bloom Heavy outdoors.

Initially I was thinking of a pair to REPLACE my 140's.  If I were to roll the dice today I would roll them for a whole new set of mics and KEEP the 140's, so that might be what I do.  If I picked up a second pair the cost of the 8040's + cables would be about as far as I would go. 

Stay tuned.

Then go for the 8050's or 8020's.
You have a pair of smoking cards already.

[cashandkerouac]

+T for the replies.  I just spoke with my buddy and he is sending me out a pair of 8040's.  He told me the EXACT same thing about the EQ blah blah that folks mentioned above and in pm's. 

I am going to do two A:B comps.  One this coming weekend indoors (Henhouse Prowlers, Cape Girardeau, MO) and some 6/29-30 at Bloom Heavy outdoors.

Initially I was thinking of a pair to REPLACE my 140's.  If I were to roll the dice today I would roll them for a whole new set of mics and KEEP the 140's, so that might be what I do.  If I picked up a second pair the cost of the 8040's + cables would be about as far as I would go. 

Stay tuned.

Then go for the 8050's or 8020's.
You have a pair of smoking cards already.

i agree. in addition to my 8040s i have the 8050s and they're wonderful.  the 8050s come in real handy when you're stuck in the back of a venue or if you want to (or need to) minimize the impact of crowd noise on the sides.  also, the 8050s still pull plenty of bottom end, so you're really not sacrificing much (if any) with the supercards. 

[fleish]

If I were to roll the dice today I would roll them for a whole new set of mics and KEEP the 140's, so that might be what I do.

Slut. It. Up.

[John Willett]

  the 8050s come in real handy when you're stuck in the back of a venue or if you want to (or need to) minimize the impact of crowd noise on the sides.  also, the 8050s still pull plenty of bottom end, so you're really not sacrificing much (if any) with the supercards.

Sennheiser with pair-match the MKH 8050s on special order if you say you want them pair-matched when ordering.

[BusDriver]

Another point to consider ... purchase only the MKH-80x0 cap of choice and the MZL 8003 cables and terminate however you choose ...  XLR / mini 6 pin for tiny box / etc after determining correct pinout.

There is no need to use the XLR mic body component. I don't know how they would price out, but they are all available as separates. This was confirmed to me by Sennheiser. John Willett may want to comment

[cashandkerouac]

  the 8050s come in real handy when you're stuck in the back of a venue or if you want to (or need to) minimize the impact of crowd noise on the sides.  also, the 8050s still pull plenty of bottom end, so you're really not sacrificing much (if any) with the supercards.

Sennheiser with pair-match the MKH 8050s on special order if you say you want them pair-matched when ordering.

John:
     that's no longer the case (at least officially).  when i ordered mine early this year from Full Compass my rep told me that a "matching request" was not a problem.  when the order went in to Sennheiser they said they no longer do matched pairs because the tolerances were already so tight during thr manufacturing and quality control process.  they did, however, offer to send me the two mics with closely matched serial numbers that were the most closely matched. 
     to be honest, i think i really did get a matched stereo pair.  Sennheiser, for whatever reason, just didn't want to officially say that.  perhaps all the requests for matched pairs became troublesome.  i'm thrilled with my 8050s and the customer service from Full Compass and Sennheiser has been great!   

[John Willett]

Another point to consider ... purchase only the MKH-80x0 cap of choice and the MZL 8003 cables and terminate however you choose ...  XLR / mini 6 pin for tiny box / etc after determining correct pinout.

There is no need to use the XLR mic body component. I don't know how they would price out, but they are all available as separates. This was confirmed to me by Sennheiser. John Willett may want to comment

Yes - this is fine, but the heads are individuals only, they don't do matched stereosets.

You would have to request individual matching.

[John Willett]

  the 8050s come in real handy when you're stuck in the back of a venue or if you want to (or need to) minimize the impact of crowd noise on the sides.  also, the 8050s still pull plenty of bottom end, so you're really not sacrificing much (if any) with the supercards.

Sennheiser with pair-match the MKH 8050s on special order if you say you want them pair-matched when ordering.

John:
     that's no longer the case (at least officially).  when i ordered mine early this year from Full Compass my rep told me that a "matching request" was not a problem.  when the order went in to Sennheiser they said they no longer do matched pairs because the tolerances were already so tight during thr manufacturing and quality control process.  they did, however, offer to send me the two mics with closely matched serial numbers that were the most closely matched. 
     to be honest, i think i really did get a matched stereo pair.  Sennheiser, for whatever reason, just didn't want to officially say that.  perhaps all the requests for matched pairs became troublesome.  i'm thrilled with my 8050s and the customer service from Full Compass and Sennheiser has been great!

This is correct with the old MKH 20/30/40 series, but the 8000 series are glued and only have a 1mm or less edging.  This makes it more difficult to get the very fine pair matching.  The stereosets are individually matched and don't have consecutive serial numbers.

Unless Sennheiser have changed the manufacturing process in the last 18 months or so.

When I worked for Sennheiser, it was me who got them to offer pair-matching on the 8050 as they did not offer it as standard.

[Big Perm]

Screw it, go digital! You will not regret it!!
a

[chinariderstl]

Marking thread, if I ever move away from my full-body AKG's (to something smaller), these are my top two choices... so far.  (And I haven't a clue which, if any, way I'd lean.)

[rigpimp]

So tell me again why I would want a Supercardioid versus a Cardiod polar pattern.  What good will the lobe be if I mostly record on stage?

My loaner pair of 8040's should be here today or tomorrow.  If they make it in time I will run them Saturday night at the Henhouse Prowlers in Cape Girardeau with my 140's lined up right along with them.

[cashandkerouac]

for on stage placement i'd go with the cardioid 8040s. 

So tell me again why I would want a Supercardioid versus a Cardiod polar pattern.  What good will the lobe be if I mostly record on stage?

My loaner pair of 8040's should be here today or tomorrow.  If they make it in time I will run them Saturday night at the Henhouse Prowlers in Cape Girardeau with my 140's lined up right along with them.

[yltfan]

So tell me again why I would want a Supercardioid versus a Cardiod polar pattern.  What good will the lobe be if I mostly record on stage?

What good does the lobe ever do?

[rigpimp]

What good does the lobe ever do?

+T

[rigpimp]

Marking thread, if I ever move away from my full-body AKG's (to something smaller), these are my top two choices... so far.  (And I haven't a clue which, if any, way I'd lean.)

Are you coming to Bloom Heavy?  If so you'll see me running the 8040's alongside my 140's.

[Gutbucket]

So tell me again why I would want a Supercardioid versus a Cardiod polar pattern.  What good will the lobe be if I mostly record on stage?

What good does the lobe ever do?

Haven't used either of these mic lines personally, but can't resist playing the devils advocate. Here's a few potential good things about the rear lobe-

It makes X/Y a viable choice if you want to run an X/Y config (IMHO. I dislike X/Y with cards except for close mic'ing, yet using supercards can be work pretty well, somewhat like directional blumlein).

For similar reasons, it helps some other non-X/Y configs work correctly (thinking about configs not used around here much, specifically 3 channel OCT) by picking up a small amount of reverse polarity content at a reduced level from the opposite direction.

The traditional Senn supercard response is also interesting in that they chose a pattern where the off-axis sensitivity at +/- 90 degrees is the same as the sensitivity at 180 degress (both are 6dB down from on-axis I believe) [edit- both are 10dB down].  I assume the newer 8050 is the same.  John please correct me if I'm off on this.

So there are some specific reasons to desire the rear lobe, but as you are well aware, the primary reasons for choosing supercards over cardioids is not the rear lobe in itself, but their higher ratio of sensitivity to on-axis sound in comparison to all other combined directions; their conical rearward null pattern; and their generally reduced low frequency sensitivity at the distances we record, including on-stage.

All that said, cardioids are probably a better choice generally for most on-stage 2-channel configs.

[yltfan]

So tell me again why I would want a Supercardioid versus a Cardiod polar pattern.  What good will the lobe be if I mostly record on stage?

What good does the lobe ever do?

Haven't used either of these mic lines personally, but can't resist playing the devils advocate. Here's a few potential good things about the rear lobe-

It makes X/Y a viable choice if you want to run an X/Y config (IMHO. I dislike X/Y with cards except for close mic'ing, yet using supercards can be work pretty well, somewhat like directional blumlein).

For similar reasons, it helps some other non-X/Y configs work correctly (thinking about configs not used around here much, specifically 3 channel OCT) by picking up a small amount of reverse polarity content at a reduced level from the opposite direction.

The traditional Senn supercard response is also interesting in that they chose a pattern where the off-axis sensitivity at +/- 90 degrees is the same as the sensitivity at 180 degress (both are 6dB down from on-axis I believe).  I assume the newer 8050 is the same.  John please correct me if I'm off on this.

So there are some specific reasons to desire the rear lobe, but as you are well aware, the primary reasons for choosing supercards over cardioids is not the rear lobe in itself, but their higher ratio of sensitivity to on-axis sound in comparison to all other combined directions; their conical rearward null pattern; and their generally reduced low frequency sensitivity at the distances we record, including on-stage.

All that said, cardioids are probably a better choice generally for most on-stage 2-channel configs.

Thanks for the (always) informative response!

[John Willett]

The traditional Senn supercard response is also interesting in that they chose a pattern where the off-axis sensitivity at +/- 90 degrees is the same as the sensitivity at 180 degress (both are 6dB down from on-axis I believe).  I assume the newer 8050 is the same.  John please correct me if I'm off on this.

It's actually abut 10dB down at both 90° and 180°, not 6dB.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks John.

[rigpimp]

A picture of the mounted mics is here:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=150229.msg1974580#msg1974580


Henhouse Prowlers 6/16/2012
One file is SKM-140 (ORTF) > R-44 and the other is Sennheiser 8040st > R-44
Did a fade on the in and out and encoded both directly from 24/48 to 320mp3 using Wavelab 6

File 1:
File Name: 1.mp3
File Size: 122.2 MB
Download Link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/0fpqvp

File 2:
File Name: 2.mp3
File Size: 122.2 MB
Download Link: http://www.sendspace.com/file/gxrr0w

[Gutbucket]

Thanks for the samples.
Both sound good, though I have a preference for one over the other on this particular date and feel reasonably confident I know which is which.

[rigpimp]

Enjoyed the 8040's for a couple of shows.  I never got to run them outdoors but for indoor, small venue acoustic music they are very nice.

I bought a pair of CCM4's out of the yard sale and may have a pair of DPA's to borrow soon.  Time to shut up and get slutty.