Topic: c414 / LD Owners - Configuration Questions / Opinions

[branas]

Just got my 414b XLS/ST pair, going to run them tonight for the first time (Oteil @ Skippers in Tampa). I have everything I need to run vertical X/Y, haven't tried seeing if everything can be put together for horizontal X/Y yet. Oade brothers states several times throughout their site that all LD mics should be run coincident no matter what. Though as I look through my torrents I see a few that show 414's run ORTF. The stereo bar that AKG sells with the mics would indicate that the ORTF/DINsih approach is acceptable. I am currently planning on running vertical X/Y unless you guys have reasons to run otherwise (M/S??). The venue is outdoor, though the area that the mics will be setup will probably be under a tarp or metal roof, approximately 50-75ft from stage. On another note, DPA's mic university states "But as the off-axis attenuation of a first-order cardioid microphone is only 6 dB in 90°, the channel separation is limited, and wide stereo images are not possible with this recording method." in referring to X/Y. So, I would love to hear you guys chime in on your favorite LD mic configs.

[Brian Skalinder]

Unamplified audience or amplified on-stage, I like coincident, near-coincident and split techniques.  For PA audience, I prefer coincident and am not terribly of near-coincident.  I don't think I've tried my 414s split in the audience yet, so can't speak to that one.

Coincident:  XY, M/S, Blumlein
Near-coincident:  ORTF, DIN, DINA and variants
Split:  AB (obviously)

Really, it's all going to come down to what your ears like.  Over time, try 'em all and see what you like.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I am interested in more input to this topic.  I just got a pair of LD's (C3's) and have only run them ORTF, because that is the only bar I have.  I would think that LD's in xy would be good because it would tighten the bass and give more high frequency detail, something that SD's are better at.  But, near-coincident might be nice for shows that are lacking in bass, like bluegrass...

[TNJazz]

Oade brothers states several times throughout their site that all LD mics should be run coincident no matter what.

That's just plain stupid right there.

[Brian Skalinder]

Oade brothers states several times throughout their site that all LD mics should be run coincident no matter what.

I'm curious to see precisely what they say, as they often qualify their statements with "trust your ears" or the like.  Got a link?

[TNJazz]

Oade brothers states several times throughout their site that all LD mics should be run coincident no matter what.

I'm curious to see precisely what they say, as they often qualify their statements with "trust your ears" or the like.  Got a link?

Just to be clear on my previous statement, any qualifications such as this that they might make would render my prior observation moot.

Experimentation is where it's at.  Not everybody likes the same thing, and some situations are best solved with an unorthodox approach (those are my favorites!)

[branas]

quote from Oade brothers:  (http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/coincident.html)

"Coincident techniques are the most popular type for stereo recording. These are most often implemented using directional microphones vertically aligned on a common axis and set at an angle to each other in the horizontal plane.
The advantages this method offers are minimum phase differences between the two capsules for sound sources lying within the horizontal plane. Another is the angular accuracy of the stereo image not being affected by the distance of the microphones from the sound source. All large diaphragm (1 inch and larger) microphones should be used in this manner for satisfying results. Some small diaphragm microphones , most notably the Schoeps Collette series, suffer from a lack of "sense of space" utilizing this method, due to the lack of interchannel delay time. The Microtech Geffel small diaphragm mics do not exhibit this problem. Near coincident techniques are recommended for microphones with these problems, where they can yield very good results."

And in another area: (http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/micsetup90xy.html)

"We find that all large diaphram microphones must be set up in this manner to assure satisfing results." referring to X/Y

[Brian Skalinder]

quote from Oade brothers
< snip >

All large diaphragm (1 inch and larger) microphones should be used in this manner for satisfying results.

< snip >

We find that all large diaphram microphones must be set up in this manner to assure satisfing results.

Thanks for the links / quotes.  I guess I can read their statements one of two ways:  no one can achieve satisfying results running other than coincident (which the former kinda suggests), or they don't find the results satisfying (which the latter suggests).

At any rate, try both, and go with what sounds best to your ears. 

[branas]

Thanks guys, I will be definitely running different combinations to see what I like, I just wanted to poll the group and see what you guys had found. 3 bands tonight so I will probably experiment with the first two bands for sure. I also will be running three sets of mics: 414's->V3->Line In on 3&4 on the 744 and then Shure SM81's->744 on 1&2 using the 744 pre's. Then just for kicks it will be the last run for my C-1000's->Microtrack 24/96, just to hear the difference between the 414's and my new rig 

After that the Microtrack will become bitbucket behind the V3.

I guess I could ask one more thing, if you were going to be running the first two sets of mics I listed at the same time, for comparison's sake, would you run the same config on both or would you change it up for each pair and run a different config? I am assuming I should run the same configuration.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I would run the same config for compairison purposes.  You want to remove as many variables as possible. 

:-)

[rowjimmytour]

So far I have found three formations I like best w/ my LDS's. For festivals semi far away or bad sounding bars I like DIN. Up in close FOB smaller out side stages I go w/ MS or J-disc. Good luck!!! And try all the configurations and caps and see what your ears like best. +t on your new LD's.

Peace

[BobW]

Oade brothers states several times throughout their site that all LD mics should be run coincident no matter what.

because of the diaphram size, near coincident techniques are thought to be rendered ineffective
I don't think it "breaks" the recording, but opens the door for bar failures, and stand imbalances, etc, that aren't a neccesary risk

Nick'sPicks has run 414s hyper near-coincident and may have a comment.
Hyper may be the exception, I'm not sure

[beanstalk]

My late opinion...
I only really liked the 414s in XY when running Blumlein which I think is where these mics shine. I've run the hypers and cards each once in XY and was didn't like the results. I think it takes a bit of the fattness from the 414's which is the reason I got these. The one thing about skippers is the crowd is always chatty (actually I think the Tampa crowd is chatty everywhere) and is a place I always wanted to run Blumlein but never did it. I'm may try M/S next time I'm out there though.

[Busman Audio]

Being that the 414s are somewhat brighter than a lot of other LD mics I would say DIN or ORTF would best suit these. I have run XY with a few pairs of LDs (not 414s) and liked it very much the image was extremly well centered since the phase of the capsules was as close as it can get, with the nice large soundstage that LDs can give.

tapermark runs his 414s ORTF a lot and they always sound very nice.

[BobW]

Being that the 414s are somewhat brighter than a lot of other LD mics

I suppose someone should say that the 414 B-ULS/comb/EB/TLS and 414B-XLIIs have notably different presence curves, but you all know that     

I'd guess that brighter is the TLIIs, with the others being essentially flat, and sweet
The XLS and XLII have the wide-card(sub) pattern that I'd love to have for near stage work.
As a matter of fact, a pair of XLIIs front of stage may be something that I have to try soon.

The diaphram on these mics are noteably bigger than the eardrum/ear canal, on which the near-coincident techniques are based.
Perhaps there is a correlation there?

[MarkE]

I have had my best results with my 414's running them blumlein pattern. I like to tape smaller clubs 20 to 30 feet from the stage. When I run them card x/y they sound good, but same club ran blumlein figure 8 these recordings have much nicer imaging. A little more chowd chatting becase of the pattern, but definatly better imaging and overall ambience.. Try the blumlein pattern . You wont be dissapointed.
Mark E

[Nick's Picks]

Doug is opinionated...strongly.
as we know, and he despises LD recordings done in any way other than coincident technique.  "anything else just doesn't sound right to me".
So, that is where his general statement comes from...his own ears.

that said, it is standard in the world of LD recording that they are run coincident.  why...exactly, i'm not sure.  I believe it has to do w/the way LDs off axis perform, and that whatever problems arise from this are not present with coincident techniques.

I ran my 414b ULS's every which way you could imagine.  All of my favorites were coincident recordings...and mostly all of them blumlein.   I made some recordings that were very nice with NC techniques.., one particular ORTF recording in a small room comes to mind as being exceptionally juicy.

Still...I prefer the coincident methods.  Look at all the stereo mics in production today.  All of them are coincident LD (except the cheapies from AT and Rhodes..and mics that are more video orientated like the beyer and and the vp88..etc).  Sure...stereo "kits" from schoepps are not this way..but thats a little different as, to me, none of them are a true stereo mic.

so...in short, this discussion is why the LSD2 kicks so much ass.  I wouldn't hesitate to get one of those over a pair of 414s.  While the AKGs are better mics overall, and certainly more studio friendly and versitile, the LSD makes more consistent "good" recordings when in our hands.
coincident is where its at, and it makes sense when you think of it. 

sound locations are pinpoint.  someone plays a guitar in front of you, the sound comes from the source.
so, why would you record w/the diaphragms wayyyyy off axis, where they dont' perform as well, so that you get this sense of space that your brain has to "work on" to mix it and approximate the locations of the sounds as you perceive them.
Coincident recording captures everything in front, well within the sphere of those cardioid lobes.  Timing cues are captured perfectly..the brain has no work to do when listening to it.  Its presented just as it happened.

For some reason...those NC techniques work well with small diaphragm mics.  I think it has to do with off axis response being much better than w/the LD type mics.  Not so much with the LD mics though.

BUT....i'm a blabbering idiot..so take that to the bank as thats the only provable thing I've sputtered here.

[branas]

Thank you all very much. I ran X/Y the other night, the recording came out very well, other than the first set where I blew the levels a bit. I will definitely be trying several patterns over next weekend. Sounds like Blumlein will be high on the list. I also want to try M/S. Thanks again, this place rocks.

[RobertNC]

I'm so confused now.   

[F.O.Bean]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

[RobertNC]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

Yin or Yang. Viagra or Levitra.  DINa or XY.

You name it, I'm confused about it.

[F.O.Bean]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

Yin or Yang. Viagra or Levitra.  DINa or XY.

You name it, I'm confused about it.

ask away then

[rowjimmytour]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

Yin or Yang. Viagra or Levitra.  DINa or XY.

You name it, I'm confused about it.

I have tried all but XY w/ my Tl's. I think I mgiht try it next time out but I am normally not a fan of XY aleast when I had SD's. Any input w/ TL's XY?
Peace

[Kyle]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

Yin or Yang. Viagra or Levitra.  DINa or XY.

You name it, I'm confused about it.

ya don't need THAT shit - your local neighborhood hottie should due just fine
On a related topic, a guy in Australia a few years ago broke in a lab where the were working on a male 'enhancement' med. He turned himself in after his erection hit day 7

ouch.

[Nick's Picks]

for about 3 years (and sometimes still), I will yank my mikes down and change the stereo config between sets.  Doing this has taught me what I like and when I like it (depending on room and location).
experiment.  who cares if the sets sound different in the final product.  well,,, I suppose some people do.  but i'm one of those guys who (99%) tapes for myself only, so I dont care what I fudge up.

[Shawn]

interesting. I do almost exclusively near-coincident techniques (mostly DIN) with my TLs. I guess I need to try x-y and blumlein more.

[rowjimmytour]

interesting. I do almost exclusively near-coincident techniques (mostly DIN) with my TLs. I guess I need to try x-y and blumlein more.

I must say I like DIN best so far and J-Disc w/ my Tl's.
Peace

[(((KB)))]

... I have everything I need to run vertical X/Y, haven't tried seeing if everything can be put together for horizontal X/Y yet....

I've been running c3000b's XY horiz. for about 6 months or so now... I just have a little metal spacer to raise one mic above the other, so I would assume you could run the 414's the same way. Don't really care for virtical XY since it seems to make my stand lean too much forward for my liking. I change the angle a bit depending how close I am, but overall I like the less ambient sound that XY seems to give me with the c3000b's. Here's a recent photo:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=75600.0

-Kevin

[beanstalk]

I use clamps which works great. Run blumlein with the 414's. You'll love it. 

[RobertNC]

I've set XY up with the TLs in the living room.  I would definitely advise running vertical if you are usng the "supermount" style shocks.  A lot of strain on the bands if you try to position those mounts in a horizontal config.

[easy jim]

I use clamps which works great. Run blumlein with the 414's. You'll love it. 

Yep, that's how I do it.  And just switch things around a little from blumlein to M/S.

[mwz]

I'm so confused now.   

about what?

Yin or Yang. Viagra or Levitra.  DINa or XY.

You name it, I'm confused about it.

I have tried all but XY w/ my Tl's. I think I mgiht try it next time out but I am normally not a fan of XY aleast when I had SD's. Any input w/ TL's XY?
Peace

my favorite tapes w/ the TL's have been the ones run in XY.  XY rules w/ LD's - split the soundstage and adjust levels to suit.  XY w/ a verti bar makes for a pretty quick setup, either horizontal or vertical w/ an extension.  After a year of playing around w/ the TL's I 've been running DINa(cards) or XY(hypers) - Omni's outdoors tho...<grin>

[Brian Skalinder]

For those running XY, one thing to try is adjusting the included angle.  If it's a crappy sounding room, 70º - 90º may work best since it will minimize the effects of the room and crowd while still maintaining a stereo image and soundstage.  (Below ~70º, the soundstage often collapses to mono-ish.)  If it's a really good sounding room, 90º - 110º may work best because it will help open up the stereo image and soundstage.  Basically, don't get stuck thinking you've gotta run 'em at 90º with XY.

That said, I ran Blumlein last night on-stage for Eastern Blok (pka Goran Ivanovic Group)...mmmmm...Blumlein...

[Nick's Picks]

you said it.
blumlein, the next best thing to being there.

[branas]

if you are in the far back of the room, would you still run blumlein? Seems like it might not help in that scenario.

[TNJazz]

if you are in the far back of the room, would you still run blumlein? Seems like it might not help in that scenario.

Depends on how far back you're talking.  Ideally, no. 

If the room is small though, it's not necessarily a bad idea.  As long as all the players are captured within the angle...