Topic: Is this ORTF? *pics included...

[manitouman]

Hi there, I'm trying different configs with my mics and want to try ORTF from dead center at Red Rocks. I've done DIN from about 7 feet left of center at Red Rocks and recording turned out really good. My question is...does this look right? I used a protractor to find 110 degrees with 17 cm separation between caps. But the pictures I've found on ORTF show the mics not over one another like I have them. There's no way of getting ORTF without the mics overlapping each other. Or is there? I'm looking for any comments or suggestions here. Will I accomplish ORTF even if I have it done like in the pics? Here's some pics...







Thanks in advance!

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

IMO if you are further than 100 yards from the stage I'd do din or dina if running hypers.  My experience has shown ORTF doesn't sound very good from the section.  FWIW.  I also have never been to Red Rocks so I may be off for this venue.

[tfs8271]

Looks good. Over lap on mics, who cares.....

It sure is better than your left big toe nail. That thing must produce some mean in-grown toe nails.

[boojum]

Go here: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ and click on "microphone university" for a wealth of information.  You are spot on in your ORTF setup.

[Tye]

Looks right to me. Where did you get the riser on the left in your second picture?

[Nick's Picks]

Looks good. Over lap on mics, who cares.....

It sure is better than your left big toe nail. That thing must produce some mean in-grown toe nails.

nice!

[manitouman]

I will be 15th row from the stage, so I don't think that is 100 yards  maybe 75-100 feet? I've seen other tapers using ORTF, but I'm not sure what mics they were using. I'm sure they are on the Colorado Crue team but haven't been there. Which (ORTF or DIN) would give me a better recording? I like how DIN sounded on my Crowes recording from that same spot. I just thought I'd try ORTF since the other tapers were using that config.

I got the riser from MicSupply, it's actually 2 pieces: one 5/8" to 3/8" and a 3/8" to 5/8" which gives me about a 1 1/2" lift.

I'm actually quite sensitive about that toenail! Thank you very much for bringing up bad memories. 
I had an ingrown toenail a long time ago, the dumb a$$ doctor cut the whole nail off instead of just remedying the situation. So now I have this grotesque looking wookie claw instead of a normal toenail. I just tell the girls I had it shot off in the jungles of 'nam. Seems to distract them away from it.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Wookie claw.      I think ORTF will be great!

[Tye]

I will be 15th row from the stage, so I don't think that is 100 yards  maybe 75-100 feet? I've seen other tapers using ORTF, but I'm not sure what mics they were using. I'm sure they are on the Colorado Crue team but haven't been there. Which (ORTF or DIN) would give me a better recording? I like how DIN sounded on my Crowes recording from that same spot. I just thought I'd try ORTF since the other tapers were using that config.

I got the riser from MicSupply, it's actually 2 pieces: one 5/8" to 3/8" and a 3/8" to 5/8" which gives me about a 1 1/2" lift.

I'm actually quite sensitive about that toenail! Thank you very much for bringing up bad memories. 
I had an ingrown toenail a long time ago, the dumb a$$ doctor cut the whole nail off instead of just remedying the situation. So now I have this grotesque looking wookie claw instead of a normal toenail. I just tell the girls I had it shot off in the jungles of 'nam. Seems to distract them away from it.

  Thanks that is a much nicer solution to what I was going to do to run my peluso's. +T
 

[Nick's Picks]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Redrocks is STEEP.
ORTF from the section would be fine.  As the crow files, you're not far from the PA due to the crazy incline of the bleachers.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

[manitouman]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

Those look like they would come in handy! Did you make those yourself? I bought a cheap 97 cent protractor from Wal-mart but it is clear so I can place it directly over the mics to see where my angle is. How much will the sound be affected if I'm off of 110 degrees? Plus or minus degrees? I'm guessing that I would rather the mics be under 110 degrees instead of over because of the mics pointing too far out instead of in. Is this the correct assumption?

+T's all around!

[china_rider]

I can't take credit for this, but here is a template another member of the forum made that covers alot of the different setups.

http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/MicConfigTemplate.pdf

[intpseeker]

IMO if you are further than 100 yards from the stage I'd do din or dina if running hypers.  My experience has shown ORTF doesn't sound very good from the section.  FWIW.  I also have never been to Red Rocks so I may be off for this venue.

You mention dina, and I thought that in other posts they were referring to DIN with active caps/cables.

So how does DIN differ from dina?

[Shawn]

So how does DIN differ from dina?

3 centimeters. 17 for dina and 20 for din, both at 90 degrees.

[china_rider]

DIN is 90 degree, 20 cm
DINa is 90 degree, 17 cm

If choosing between the two with my 480s DINa seems to always come out better with cards or hypers.

However, at least with my mics, I'm a big fan of NOS which is 90 degree, 30 cm.

[intpseeker]

+T's on the chart and the templates.

The chart came out nicely on a color laser transparency

[Keyd]

I can't take credit for this, but here is a template another member of the forum made that covers alot of the different setups.

http://www.taperssection.com/reference/pdf/MicConfigTemplate.pdf

Thanks for the link and thanks to whoever made the template. It will be quite helpful.

[F.O.Bean]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

hmmmm, those look VERY familiar Oh wait, I have those EXACT same templates Thanks again Mark, that was VERY KIND of you to GIVE me those, which I think were your own personal templates. That shows me you are truly a KICK-ASS guy, especially to just GIVE them to me for nothing when you moved to the land of actives for good So THANKS again bud

I have them permanently kept in my AKG 483 gear bag and they have already come in VERY handy for when running the AKG 483's when I dont have the KwonBar to rely on for angles/spacing/configs like I do with my MBHO's

And bro, about your question about being below or above the 110* angle, I would say you would rather be under the 110* angle rather than over it around 120*. I would run at about 100* and be happy with that. Are you running cards or hypers? If running hypers, I would stick with DINa, but you will never know if hypers@ORTF will sound good at RR until you try it out for yourself I have ran and have heard some GREAT recordings with hypers@ORTF, it just really depends on venue. I ran DIN at RR when I was there for Trey in 2001 and couldnt have been happier with the end results, I just wish I had the Big-Ass Shure windscreens at the time when I was there. I just had the larger DPA screens at the time, and they did and AOK job on wind protection but they could only do so much. I would ONLY record at RR with the big-ass shures because it gets SOOO windy. In fact, the first nite of Trey on 7/17/2001, it was SOOOO windy, that during the encore of 'At The BBQ', the wind was SOOO intense, that it actually knocked over Trey's mic stand and a few of his bands music stands, yes it was THAT windy. I would make sure you have the big-ass shure screens or at least the larger DPA screens+dead rats or I honestly wouldnt even try recording there, but YMMV

Good luck and please let us know how your recording turns out after the fact!

Bean

[intpseeker]

[/quote]

hmmmm, those look VERY familiar Oh wait, I have those EXACT same templates
Bean
[/quote]

Uhm...? The radius part of the templates above face the sound source?

[manitouman]

Thanks for the advice Bean, and yes I do know about the Rocks and the wind. My virgin taping session with the new equipment was at the Rocks for a G. Love & SS show. It started out okay but then the wind really picked up. Since it was my first time, I had the stock screens for the Peluso's. Big mistake! Bought some "big ass" Shure's and used them for the Crowes a few weeks ago and results were much better. Not much wind that time but it did begin to rain towards the end. I won't tape there again unless I have my Shure's, that's for sure! Oh! and I'm running card caps on the Peluso's.

I'm getting with theImplodingVoice from Jersey at the show. I believe he's going to assist me in video taping as well. I have a small JVC camcorder that has the hard drive in it. We'll see how that turns out. Audio for sure, video maybe.

Yes, intpseeker, the radius part towards the sound source. I had a hard time trying to interpret the template someone posted a link to. I think tapermark's templates would be more useful to someone like me who would want something much simpler and easy to use.

Thanks everyone for the help!

[Nick's Picks]

I love to watch her dance....
but dont let the MODs see !


(yes, i'm fucking w/you guys...despite the warnings.  i'm feeling rather pranksterish today)

[manitouman]

I have been messing with my mics to get a better ORTF config. And I used the hard mounts instead of the shock mounts and I can get my angle right on with those mounts. I mean I am right on 110* with the 17cm separation. It was hard to get exact with the shock mounts. So I guess I'm asking, I should be okay using the hard mounts in an outdoor setting, correct? The shock mounts protect against someone knocking the stand over, is that a correct assumption? Wind shouldn't rock the mic in the shock mount and I think tomorrow at Red Rocks they are predicting 10-15mph winds. And I have the "big ass" Shures I'll be using. I think, unless I get other advice, I will go with the hard mounts so I can get an almost perfect ORTF config.

Here's some new pics, without the wookie claw!







Have to say it looks much better with the hard mounts than with the shock mounts. Wouldn't you say?

[F.O.Bean]

hard mounts should be alright, but shocks dont just protect from someone bumping the stand, but also HUGE bass bombs that would otherwise overload or distort your mics. my AT 8415 shocks and my Shure a53m shocks both take away a decent amount of bass db, and I can CLEARLY hear a diff between NOT running shocks and running them. I will NEVER run without shocks ever again. I didnt run them from 1999>2001, but when I started running them, my tapes started def getting more consistent and better sounding

[intpseeker]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

Hey tapermark. V. cool templates.  What are they made of? Do you run the angle down the center of the mic body?

[F.O.Bean]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

Hey tapermark. V. cool templates.  What are they made of? Do you run the angle down the center of the mic body?

since I now own Mark's pair, I will answer. the end of the radius is where each capsule should lay. these go directly over the config and these will lay directly on the center of each capsule when properly placed.  so at the widest part of each template is where the capsule sits and these should be directly on the CENTER of each capsule. I will snap a pic tomorrow if yinz are interested

Thanks again Mark, you RAWK!

[intpseeker]

honestly, your angles look a little under 110deg.
It always amazes me how that extra 20deg over a perfect square looks so exagerated.  I just dont see that w/your image.

but protractors doent lie.

Or these.   

Hey tapermark. V. cool templates.  What are they made of? Do you run the angle down the center of the mic body?

since I now own Mark's pair, I will answer. the end of the radius is where each capsule should lay. these go directly over the config and these will lay directly on the center of each capsule when properly placed.  so at the widest part of each template is where the capsule sits and these should be directly on the CENTER of each capsule. I will snap a pic tomorrow if yinz are interested

Thanks again Mark, you RAWK!

Pics would be cool, Beans. 

[Nick's Picks]

shure a53m
google it.

[F.O.Bean]

sure a53m
google it.

 

[Nick's Picks]

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Accessories/us_pro_A53M_content

those shockmounts will not "get in the way" like the stock Peluso's.

which...btw, John told me he is still working on active cables for.

[John Willett]

So how does DIN differ from dina?

It's shown in the picture above. 



DIN is 90° - 20cm
DIN A is 90° - 17cm.

[intpseeker]

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/Accessories/us_pro_A53M_content

those shockmounts will not "get in the way" like the stock Peluso's.

which...btw, John told me he is still working on active cables for.

+T, Nick, for the info on the actives.  I was going through the threads looking to see if I missed news about them.

[manitouman]

Thanks Nick for the link to those shock mounts. Looks like something I may need to add to my arsenal.

[F.O.Bean]

Thanks Nick for the link to those shock mounts. Looks like something I may need to add to my arsenal.

The Peluso's are 22m in diameter, and the Shure a53m's are made for 20mm mics. the 48x are 21mm and can be shoved into them with force, but I HIGHLY DOUBT that you can force 22mm mics in them. They work perfectly and fit like a glove my MBHO KwonBar tho, which is 20mm.

So I would continue shopping around for lopro shocks The Peluo's seem to be the widest mic for most taper mics. Schoeps are 19mm I believe, if not 19mm, then theyre 20mm. AKG 48x are 21mm, along with MBHO 603a's and I believe the regular 603 as well. Dont forget to read up on the specs because even tho 2mm doesnt sseem like a big difference, it really is.

[Nick's Picks]

I used to stuff my 140's in there, so I'm sure the peluso's would fit.

also, there is the Nady sm5, which is a schoeps a20 knock-off.  same size.  would work well.