Topic: mics recommended for close micing live acoustic classical music?

[MRC01]

I've used the search feature and done a lot of reading here already. Most of the opinions are based on distant recording of loud rock or electronic music. I was wondering if anyone had much experience with near micing live acoustic classical music?

Most of what I do is small ensemble stuff: solos, duets, trios up to small chamber orchestras. Usually indoors in a controlled space: recording halls, churches, etc. This is not stealth recording: I have a lot of flexibility in mic arrangement. I am looking for the most neutral, naturally balanced clean sound I can achieve.

So far, I've gotten surprisingly good results with my modified Zoom H4 with its built in mics and with a pair of cheap Shure SM58 mics. Actually I like the built-ins better than the SM58s - they are more natural sounding; a little on the crunchy side but not too bad. These recordings are as good as some studio recordings but they are not audiophile grade. I figured if I can get this good with such cheap gear, a little upgrade may take me a lot further. I'm looking at $500 or less for the pair of mics. New or used is fine with me.

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4
Studio Project
Peluso
AKG

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

[Shawn]

paging moke.

[Tim]

paging moke.

what he said

my $.02

- used will allow you to stretch that budget and if/when you decide to sell you should be able to recoup nearly everything you paid.
- The Peluso's seem to be getting some good reviews.
- Are omni's an option? A used set of DPA 406x are within your budget and they are a tremendous bang for the buck. You'll have to get a preamp or battery box setup but there are some low cost options that wouldn't be far outside your budget (Church Audio?)

Good luck

[stirinthesauce]

I've used the search feature and done a lot of reading here already. Most of the opinions are based on distant recording of loud rock or electronic music. I was wondering if anyone had much experience with near micing live acoustic classical music?

Most of what I do is small ensemble stuff: solos, duets, trios up to small chamber orchestras. Usually indoors in a controlled space: recording halls, churches, etc. This is not stealth recording: I have a lot of flexibility in mic arrangement. I am looking for the most neutral, naturally balanced clean sound I can achieve.

So far, I've gotten surprisingly good results with my modified Zoom H4 with its built in mics and with a pair of cheap Shure SM58 mics. Actually I like the built-ins better than the SM58s - they are more natural sounding; a little on the crunchy side but not too bad. These recordings are as good as some studio recordings but they are not audiophile grade. I figured if I can get this good with such cheap gear, a little upgrade may take me a lot further. I'm looking at $500 or less for the pair of mics. New or used is fine with me.

So far my short list is:

Rode NT5 or NT4
Studio Project
Peluso
AKG

I've been impressed with the sample NT5 / NT4 recordings I've heard so far. Haven't heard samples of the other mics in the type of music and situation I will be using. Thanks,

I've run 3 and/or owned out of those 4.  I would recommend a fifth for in that price range.  The beyerdynamic mc930.  Very smooth across the spectrum.  Great lows mids and smooth unhyped highs.

The Peluso's are great, but have that "scooped" sound with a lacking midrange (with the ck4 caps).  The mk21 cap however is excellent!  The Studio Projects, while nice at the price, I would choose something else for acoustic work.  The akg's, to my ears, are, well, unpleasing (unless we are talking about c34's, 422/6's or brass caps).  Maybe I should refraise, I dislike the ck61, ck62, ck63 caps and the 480 preamp.  The 460 body is nice and so is the 450 body with the ck1, 2 or 3 caps.  The rodes, I just have zero experience with.

Another option in that price range are Violet Designs Black Fingers.  Very detailed, transparent mics and an outstanding price.  Another is the Nevaton mc49.  Excellent handmade mic!  You will have to wait on these as they are made to order.  

The beyers, nevatons, violet mics can all be had for under a grand and sound as good if not better than mics 2 and 3 times the cost (IMO).  We have run all of the mics mentioned in a variety of settings as ambient pairs for acoustic work, aud mics as part of multitrack mix, overheads, micing guitars, sax, or just plain ole PA 2 channel recording.

If looking at LD options (large diaphragm), may I suggest the AT 4050.  A pair can be had for around 700 used and sound outstanding for small orchestral ensembles.  I used them this summer on some chamber music and was blown away.  They are multipattern also (card, omni, fig so are very versatile.

[NOLAfishwater]

what about an LSD2? I think then run around $500-600. I personally like the way LD's capture the essence of acoustic. Used to have a pair of Rode NT5's and they were great for close micing bluegrass and acoustic guitar. They are tough to beat for the price.

[TNJazz]

The beyers, nevatons, violet mics can all be had for under a grand and sound as good if not better than mics 2 and 3 times the cost (IMO).  We have run all of the mics mentioned in a variety of settings as ambient pairs for acoustic work, aud mics as part of multitrack mix, overheads, micing guitars, sax, or just plain ole PA 2 channel recording.

The Nevaton MCE400 can be had for under a grand.  Not the MC49 though...they are about $1200 apiece (new).  The MCE400 are very nice sounding omnis, but I think they're actually a bit more directional than most.

The Violet Fingers are a cool mic.  I actually listened to a jazz recording made with them today and they did quite well.  Not sure how they would do on classical music though.  I don't think too many people are using them so there's no real reference point.

I would second the suggestion of the AT4050's.  Very neutral mic, which is of course ideal for classical music.

The LSD2 is not bad, but IMO there are better choices for acoustic music.  I had one for a couple of weeks.  Did one completely acoustic jazz gig with it and wasn't all that happy with it, so it was outta there.

One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.

[NOLAfishwater]

TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

[stirinthesauce]

TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

Those are the mce400 he just mentioned.  As for the price of the mk49, I was getting confused with the mce400.  Ooops 

[TNJazz]

TN, what about the price range of $500. Weren't you talking about some EU mini omnis that were good.

yes, the MCE400.

They're about $600-ish with shipping for a pair.  I am going to post a sample that Tom (tcf) recorded later on this evening in the Team Underappreciated European Mics thread.

Those are the mce400 he just mentioned.  As for the price of the mk49, I was getting confused with the mce400.  Ooops 

EDIT:  ^^^^^ What he said ^^^^^   

[MRC01]

One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.

Good call there. Back when I first got my H4 I rang out the specs and discovered this problem. Long story short, I ended up adding a few low ESR Tantalum caps to stiffen the DC-DC converter, which improved the S/N ratio by about 12 dB. Also I built a 9 V external battery pack from AA bats and use line power. This improves the S/N ratio even further and enables 48V phantom with no noise issues. In this configuration the noise spectrum at high gain shows a S/N ratio of about 108 dB - significantly better than it was before.

The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.

P.S. I think I want to stick with directional mics. I like having a natural stereo image that can be collapsed to mono without phase issues causing frequency response problems. That would suggest an incident or near incident 90* type of arrangement, right?

[TNJazz]

One thing to note - a lot of people have reported noise when using external mics with the Zoom recorder.  I've seen several posts where the noise was far greater than the built-in mics.  You may want to look at the overall chain and swap out the recorder for something a little cleaner as well.

Good call there. Back when I first got my H4 I rang out the specs and discovered this problem. Long story short, I ended up adding a few low ESR Tantalum caps to stiffen the DC-DC converter, which improved the S/N ratio by about 12 dB. Also I built a 9 V external battery pack from AA bats and use line power. This improves the S/N ratio even further and enables 48V phantom with no noise issues. In this configuration the noise spectrum at high gain shows a S/N ratio of about 108 dB - significantly better than it was before.

The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.

interesting.  I've read of the problem but this is the first "solution" I've seen.  +t to you!

[MRC01]

The only problem remaining with my H4 is that its FR is down about 3 dB at 20 kHz. Not really noticeable though, since it has flat response from 20 Hz to 10 kHz and the rolloff to 20k is smooth and linear. A better mic preamp would be nice, but for the price I can't complain with the performance I'm getting.

That could be the result of conversion.  Worth a test before expecting an external preamp to solve the problem.

You mean the result of the H4's anti-aliasing or other digital filters? I tested it by playing a set of line level test signals from a CD player with known measured flat frequency response and recording them. The H4 has the same FR curve recording at 44.1, 48 and 96 kHz. A mic preamp with ruler flat response would be nice, but the H4's response is actually pretty decent and doesn't color the music in any noticeable way.

[rowjimmytour]

what about an LSD2? I think then run around $500-600. I personally like the way LD's capture the essence of acoustic. Used to have a pair of Rode NT5's and they were great for close micing bluegrass and acoustic guitar. They are tough to beat for the price.

I like my TL's and think they would allow a lot of flex ability w/ four patterns. Twatts has a match pair in the YS.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,93641.0.html
Peace

[RebelRebel]

Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive.

I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers. I posted a test a while back with those microphones in the lineup against some real heavy hitters from DPA, Gefell, Neumann, Schoeps, and AKG...quite a few people(all o studio guys with lots of experience recording classical music ) wrote and told me that they were amazed at how great the ATs sounded, and "are you sure you didnt get the files mixed up"? . I record classical music/acoustic music exclusively and use those mics all the time.

They are clean,perform well in both diffuse and near field applications, cheap, built like tanks, and are extremely versatile. Because of their status as workhorse mics, they will always sell  well.

(also have 3 patterns..card, omni, figure so you can run any config you choose. One of those mics that may not sound amazing on every single application, but will ALWAYS work.(and sound amazing on quite a few things!). I always grab more when I see em on ebay. AT 4050 all the way.
if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy

[MRC01]

Close micing of classical music? I thought those terms were mutually exclusive.
...
I am going to suggest a pair of Audio Technica 4050s. Real giant killers.if anyone likes, I will repost my test files so that interested folks can hear for themselves.
teddy

Close is a relative term. During my last session I was recording piano / double bass duets. I put the mics about 6 feet from the double bass and 10 feet from the piano. This gave a decent balance where the piano didn't overpower the bass. Close enough to pick up good detail, far enough away to get a sense of the room space in the recording (but not too much).

I just rebenched my H4 - with my external battery pack the line input measures -1 dB at 20 Hz and -1.3 dB at 20 kHz (with 0 dB set at 1 kHz). A very flat, smooth response curve. Considerably better performance than I last measured. S/N measures over 100 dB. That line voltage battery pack really makes a difference.

I'm a newbie to external mics and don't know how to capture a good stereo image with omnis. I downloaded a couple of docs from Shure that explain everything but I haven't seen if they cover using omnis.