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Gear / Technical Help => Battery Boxes, Preamps, Mixers, ADCs, and Processors => Topic started by: icebox on March 28, 2014, 05:35:26 PM
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So I have a CA-9200 preamp for use with my CA-14s, and I have a couple of questions about it.
Yesterday, a venue wouldn't let me bring my bag in, so I had to leave it in the car, and I forgot to bring the output cable for the 9200 back in with me, so I had to try a recording without it. I used the mic input on my M-10, the show was medium loud, and I had a good recording location directly in line to a stack. I was able to get the levels I wanted with the M-10 at 3, and the results were quite nice.
So question 1, is the CA-9200 only needed for quieter shows when using this recorder and mic, or is there some benefit to using the 9200 other than to boost volume? At the club in question, not having to have the extra piece of equipment is very useful.
Question 2, the 9200 has a volume knob and a gain control with 6 settings. When using the 9200, how should I aim to have the different volume and gain controls set on the 9200 vis a vis the M-10, assuming that I'm connected via the line input?
Thanks!
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Very common question. Sometimes you will be ok. The m10 just doesn't put out a lot of power.
It can seem a little non-intuitive at first, but the preamp/battery box actually helps the mics handle loud sounds without overloading in addition to giving cleaner levels of gain for quieter sources.
Many people have found themselves in your situation, stuck without a key cable or maybe with a dead battery and got lucky running mics directly into recorder. I did myself once for primus. there was a little distortion in the low end frequencies but nothing too distracting or that some bass roll off wouldn't help with.
In my opinion you are better off using a preamp or a battery box. Better safe than sorry. It's nice to know it might work, but I dont' want to count on it.
I can usually run an m10 and CA-9200 without too much trouble. I also have a CA Ugly battery box. Hard to call it a box as it's little more than the size of a 9v connector! If the 9200 size bothers you get one of those. hard to believe how small it is.
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What he just said. ^^
Preamp or battery box will be your saving grace/silver lining for that one, once in a lifetime, show where something manages to distort the mics. For "rock" shows, I usually bring just a battery box because the preamp on the M10 is relatively quiet for a consumer product. For pop shows, acoustic, etc., I always bring a preamp (unless I don't have one) because I'll need the level boost.
To answer question two, I've found +10dB is usually where I dial in for rock shows. For quieter shows, you might need 20 or 30dB of gain (which I've also experienced). There is no one-size fits all in this taping game. :)
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Great answers, thanks, what about the volume on the 9200 vs rec level on the M-10? When I've generally left the volume at some point that is about 2/3 up the volume dial on the 9200, then set the gain so that i can fine tune levels on the M-10. Is there a best place to have the volume on the 9200?
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I always have the volume at max when i use my 9200. Set the gain at +10 or +15 db for loud shows
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Great answers, thanks, what about the volume on the 9200 vs rec level on the M-10? When I've generally left the volume at some point that is about 2/3 up the volume dial on the 9200, then set the gain so that i can fine tune levels on the M-10. Is there a best place to have the volume on the 9200?
No! Set the M-10 to unity gain (somewhere around 3/10).
Leave the CA-9200 volume control at 100%. Start by setting the CA-9200 to +10 or +15 for loud shows and +30 for acoustic and see how the levels look. Use the CA-9200 volume control to reduce your levels quickly while recording if it looks like your levels are approacing clipping. If you need more level, increase the gain setting on the CA-9200 (although obviously if you need 5 dB more gain, don't increase the CA-9200's gain from +15 to +30). For small gain increases its fine to increase the gain on the M10, but its preferable to get as much gain as possible form the CA-9200.
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Correct... what he just said ^^ except that unity was measured around 4/4.5 on the M10.
FWIW, every single increase digital increase acts as about 2.5dB of gain; somebody on here did a test for that out of curiosity. So ideally, set the M10 and use the 9200 to make adjustments.
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I never understood the whole "unity gain" on the M10. When I was mostly running CA14s into the Ugly pre, I had the ugly set to where if it were a loud show, the M10 gain would be between 4 and 5 to get peaks between -12 and -6db. If it was a quieter show, I'd turn the levels up on the M10. I recorded several shows where I had to jack the levels on the M10 all the way up and there was never a problem with the outcome of the recording.
I especially don't understand it with the tinybox. If you turn the gain up on the tinybox so you can keep the levels at 3 on the M10, you risk brickwalling the recording. It happened several times to a friend who would always run his Tinybox on mid gain and several louder sets came out with bass distortion. I suggested running the gain on low and turning up the levels on the M10 and it wasn't an issue after that.
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I run my M-10 anywhere from a low of 4.5 to a high of 7.5 and with that setting, the M-10 is quite forgiving I've not noticed any difference. Sonically, it makes no difference to me. I do like to keep the M-10 set for its below -12db. Quiet shows can be fixed in post. Even if cymbals peak to 0db, I find it near impossible to detect sonically.
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blg: I know what you're saying. I have no issues with boosting the gain on my M10 to about 7 (max) but I've had to go as high as 10 because I had *NO* choice. Never run into any issues. The issues happen, as you mention, when you leave the levels too low on the M10. 3, IMHO, is dangerously low and I would *NEVER* recommend doing that. In fact, I don't like running below 4.5, however, I have on occasion because I was on mid-gain on the TB and anything louder would've put me dangerously close to clipping. However, we are talking 9200 here. ;)
Scooter123: You're absolute right -- like I mentioned above, 4.5 to 7.5 is a safe region on the M10 depending on what you're feeding it. The easiest thing for somebody to do, though is to set the M10 at 4.5 and adjust the 9200 (or other preamp for that matter) as needed. The M10's internals are pretty quiet for a consumer product. It's not the like old days where gaining up on your deck introduced craploads of hiss.
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What issues are there with having M-10 levels below 3? I've had several good recordings in the range right around 3, from the internal mics and with the CA-14s.
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I've never run below 4 on my M10, but that;s because I never had to. I have read several posts here on TS where tapers have run at 2 or 3 without problems. I think Guysonic reported that 1.5 was still ok to avoid brickwalling (but that's a bit too low for comfort in my book).